tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

With a +.22 lag time correction for these injectors my afr are about .45 AFR richer than they were with a 0 lag time correction (with the lag time vs voltage table setup with the lag times from the ID site). For example my 4000 rpm 16000 pim map cell average afr went from 10.99 afr to 10.54 afr, testing was two back to back 3rd gear pulls on the street to about 4500 rpm.

This is a significant difference, but still not as big of a difference as it should be because my afr were leaner by alot more than .45 afr after switching from the 1680s to these bosch 2200s. I may have to go back out and test more lag time correction.

Would the best lag time correction be when the afr are as rich as they can be? Would that mean the fuel injector timing is optimized when afr is richest?

Maybe I should start a new thread about all this.

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Ya I've read all that, and I've used all those settings, but it's just not right when comparing the afr during tuning after putting in the correct settings, alot more fuel had to be added to my map which raises idc and makes it pointless to run these bigger injectors, unless I can get the same flow and same afr from these injectors with the same fuel map I was using before with the 1680s, which would lower the idc and then have enough injector to run more boost.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

FWIW, i just talked to Luke, my tuner, and he had no problem w them on a 1000+ hp Supra. he also said he had lots of headroom.

i will be on the dyno monday for sure (snowstorm thur/fri) and will have more concrete info.

howard

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

ok Thanks Howard.

Supraman522

iTrader: (4)

The ID Injector's are top notch quality!

Although i was told that all the ID2000's were recalled and being replaced with 2200's

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

That doesn't really make sense, the id2000 Are 2200s, its just a name for them.

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

More testing done. +.23 lag time correction is working good. After analyzing more datalogs, the extra lag time actually does make the secondary injectors inject more fuel, it increases the pulse width, I can see this in the chart window and the monitor window. With 0 lag time correction, the secondary injectors inject a very small amount of ms less than the primary injectors, and with the .23 lag time correction they inject basically the same pulse width, this results in more fuel and richer afr. and the injector duty cycles are actually coming down. My tune is now too rich so when I lean it out a little the idc's will come down even farther. So I'm getting closer to how it should be. Also I'm now using 30% transition setting so the injectors start the transistion sooner and meet up to the same pulsewidths alittle sooner, this is working better too. And now using .3 Sec transition (ms), and injector overlap of 3 3 2 is better than using 7s which cause too much of a rich spike at the beginning of the transition.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

it is good to hear you are moving in the right direction...

i am doing some empirical lag determination and would really appreciate some data from a dyno run.

i would like to know your injector duty cycle, your AFR, your HP (pls state whether SAE or Standard) and your injector size.... i believe they are 850/1600. also what AI you run and the jet size. (all data at your top tick)

ideally one of your 500+ runs.

thanks

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Attached is my 528 hp dyno pull datalog file. 850s/1680s. I'm glad you asked, I just looked at that datalog and see that the pulsewidth for the secondary injectors (1680s with +.40 lag time correction) is significantly more than the pulse width for the primary injectors, when compared to my current testing/datalogs with the 2200s. So with that +.40 lag time correction the pulsewidth for the secondarys divided by the pulsewidth for the primarys is larger than it is right now, this might explain why my tune was so much leaner when I first started testing/tuning with the 2200s because the pulsewidth for the secondarys was a little less than the primarys.

For the 528 hp dyno pull, The peak pulsewidth for the primary injectors was 7.576, secondarys was 7.996. At that moment rpm was 5990, idc 75.4, 26223 PIM (24 psi), afr was 11.6, but this isn't where peak power was. More info for that dyno pull is here https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-dyno-121/528-rwhp-428-ft-lbs-24-psi-pump-gas-wi-973231/

For one of my tests today with the 2200s and a .23 lag time correction, primary injectors peak pulsewidth was 6.344 and secondarys was 6.320 at the same moment at 6963 rpm, 21703 pim (19psi), 75.7% idc, this was a 2nd gear pull spinning the tires cause the road is wet so I couldn't do any 3rd or 3th gear tests safely. I haven't turned up the boost higher yet. Afr was rich at 10.34. My tune at the moment is rich because I'm not done testing and tuning it yet. Currently using the large Aem .630 jet size injector nozzle, I think its 550cc, post fmic.

This information above is relevant mainly because it shows the differences in pulsewidths between the primarys and secondarys, with different lag correction settings. This information also suggests that I still may need to add more lag time for my 2200s to get the pulsewidths and afr where it was before with the 1680s. complicated stuff haha.

Rx7aholic

iTrader: (22)

wow very impressive finding, btw how u manage to get the car idle with those 850? I thought hard to have it run smooth with 850?

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

It's Not always smooth but It's acceptable, not bad. I don't use negative lag either, because a negative lag correction lowers the pulsewidth to lean out the idle, which also leans out the whole map a little which then means you have to add fuel to your map and your Idc's go up, not a problem if you have plenty of headroom.

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Damn I just realized my primary injector lag settings were at 0s when they are supposed to be at .04 like they always were before I installed these 2200s. I guess I accidentally zerod these out when I first entered in the 0 lag correction settings for the 2200s and I've been so worried about those secondary injector settings I didn't even notice my primary injectors setting was wrong. So this makes another small difference in AFR, 0 lag made my afr a little leaner when I first started testing with the 2200s. I feel stupid haha, but glad I found it. Now with .04 I'll be able to pull a little more fuel out of my fuel map and reduce idc.

nevermind, I have a bad headache maybe from all this haha, I forgot I changed the InjPr lag vs batv table with the correct numbers for the 850 secondarys (from the InjSc Lag vs BatV table) so then I could zero out the Primary lag time correction. although I wonder if that affects it at all, maybe I'll have to try all my previous primary injector settings and see if that changes anything.

JonnyQuestions

iTrader: (8)

Tom I think you on the right track. The injectors are top notch but it's the outdated power fc that prolly has lil tricks you have to do. As a I recall, no one really played around with deadtimes vs battery voltage setting for injectors until the ID's came out. Maybe the power fc is not so accurate on that part. Playing with the actual lag might be a better way to dial them in. I wish I could experiment with this on my car but it's all taken apart. I know I was dissapointed to see 80% idc on only 14psi on td04s with id725/id2000 injector setup with deadtimes off ID website

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Lots of people have tested and given their observations on how the lag time affects the primary injectors afr at idle and at wot. I've done tests and I know that any little change in the lag time of the primary injectors will change the afr everywhere, so if you make it negative to lean out the idle for 850s your whole map will be lean.

I don't think there has been anybody to test out different lag settings for these 2200 cc injectors and share results on here as I am now doing. People have recommended various lag settings for the old 1680s, but not for these. Looking at all my datalogs of various lag time settings, it is clear to me that if you increase the lag time the Power FC simply increases the pulsewidth resulting in more fuel and richer afr. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

rxrotary2_7

Agreed, and they do not need to be modified by anyone so no need to worry about "hammer punching" modification methods. These come from bosch to flow this volume. Part number is 0280158821 and can be had for anywhere from $130-$180. The only thing needed to fit them into a rail for the older style injectors is something ( http://injector-rehab.com/shop/14mm-...2-Adaptor.html ) to extend the length of the injector so the o-rings fall at the same length as the older style.

G's 3rd Gen

iTrader: (11)

nvrmnd. sorry

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Tom,

FWIW, i just did 27 dyno pulls on my EV14s and they flowed exactly as expected. (they were 4EV14 1000 CC injectors in my secondaries)

howard

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for letting me know. The weather sucks here but I'll try to get to the dyno soon to finish tuning.

Rx7aholic

iTrader: (22)

Hey Tom how do u get to load ur maps likes that?
I have been trying to figure on how get my maps post it but I can't figure on how to do it?
Khris

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

For dat(maps) files, Right click on the file, send to compressed zip folder. then upload that zip file onto here(manage attachments, upload). Datalogs are txt files which can be uploaded directly to here.