Enigmatic

Hey guys! I'm looking for advice on my build.

My goals are to create usable power for the street. Fast spooling and power all the way to red line. I daily drive my car, so I'm looking for something to suit that purpose. The twins are fun, but they run out of puff!

Right now this is what I am considering:

• Borg Warner EFR 7670 1.05 T4 Divided
• HKS Cast Manifold
• Tial 60mm Wastegate
• Tial 50mm BOV

CURRENT ENGINE MODS

• Rotormaster extend street port 13B
• HKS dual air intake
• TRUST/Greddy Side Mount Intercooler
• Mishimoto red radiator hoses
• Mishimoto red silicone couplers
• Hose Techniques red silicone vacuum hoses
• Ric Shaw lightened flywheel
• 850cc Primary and Secondary Injectors
• NGK Premium Platinum spark plugs
• Sard 280 fuel pump
• HKS Twin Power Ignition Booster
• APEXI Power FC and hand controller
• 3.5" Exhaust using SMB/Custom parts

Thinking of changing back to 550cc primaries and going ID2000 secondaries (the PFC doesn't really like the 850's).

I'm interested to hear thoughts on the set up in general, and taking suggestions.

As far as I can see there are a few main contenders for turbos: GTX3582r, PTE6266, EFR 7670, T04z. I'm thinking the EFR, based on what I've read, it spools super fast, the transient response time is supposedly great and it'll make good power. I probably won't use the built in BOV though.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

I like my GT3574R which is a precision 6266 I believe?

I think this size is a great turbo, especially at sea level where the spool is better then the thin air up here. its a turbo that puts you right in the mid range of the engine. so you get great spool down low and it can make its power up top as well.

I would run a 550cc or 650cc primary injector and 2000 secondary with Bosch EV14. Run FFE fual rails, buy an aeromotive 1000 FPR with CJ holder for it. make your own fuel lines of nylon braid -6 size with An fittings. Best solution for fuel IMO.

Run a supra fuel pump, rewired.

run a twin plate clutch of your choice.

you might look into ducting the radiator/intercooler, dual oil coolers, etc for supporting mods. perhaps even a mazmart water pump.

I used an A-spec exhaust manifold, not sure of the HKS? run open exhaust all the way back, I run 3" with open dump wastegate.

look into a boost controller.

run 9 spark plugs all around.

Probably need some new brakes after this, car runs like a bat out of hell.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Get rid of the cas manifold, that will hurt response big time. To4Z is too big, scratch that off the list.

Have you considered our TDX61R?

https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...-dyno-1039027/

XLR8

iTrader: (52)

+1 to both.

Enigmatic

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the components involved; when it comes to manifolds I'm reading that twin gates isn't necessary (but a lot of manifolds have two ports), shortest runner length and a low mount is best. Waste gates should be close to the turbo side or the engine side? I forget? Facing in the opposite direction of flow and at the same point on the runner? The Turblown manfifold is beautiful, and I do like it, when I pitched it to the guys on the other forum (FDRX7) they said the runner length was a bit long and it would mount the turbo too far forward/high?

What other options do I have apart from the HKS manifold? Why does the cast HKS inhibit response?

Thanks!

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Those are false statements. The numbers don't lie;

TDX61 1.0 response/dyno chart

BWS366 1.10 response/dyno chart

As you can see boost response, peak power, and torque curves are phenomenal.

I don't like building short runner manifolds for a few reasons;

A) You are severely limited on turbo size( generally you can't fit bigger than a 1.0 P trim back there), you cannot fit GT40R or BWS366 series etc.

B) The turbine housing is smack against the intake manifold, preheating the intake charge.

C) Its just plain too close to the frame rail, and I cannot risk a turbo system not fitting cars( especially when we ship overseas all the time).

D) It makes waste-gate orientation much harder, especially for RHD cars.

E) Generally you end up with a cheated radii on the turbo flange, to clock the turbo properly and this KILLS boost response/power.


Twin waste-gate manifolds keep the pulses completely separate, which equals faster exhaust velocity. This gives you better boost response. Furthermore the waste gate runners are shorter, and easiest to be placed in the direct flow of the exhaust( better boost control). If you look at the GT40R 1.1 boost response attached you can see the high and low boost, perfect boost control. Other members have been able to keep boost as low as 7psi, even on the road course!

We also have manifolds in stock and ready to ship! You won't be disappointed.

Enigmatic

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it, I do love that manifold - no problems on an RHD car then? Ric Shaw is actually my mechanic and suggested you guys to me. I've been meaning to shoot you an email.

So if I went to get a kit from you, would you suggest the TDX61 1.0 or the EFR 7670 1.05? I wanna run about 15-18 psi using 98 RON only. So out of the TDX61 and the EFR 7670, which one is going to give me the best spool/power characteristics. I was leaning toward the EFR because of the light turbine and large hotside - plus I'm hearing good things about response. Ric thought the EFR 8374 would be too laggy for my daily driving.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

All of our manifolds fit RHD cars with zero problems.

We have a turbo that gives better response than our TDX61, which is similar to the EFR( but much cheaper), it uses a 56mm inducer( TDX57R). This turbo hits full boost around 400rpms faster. It is limited to about 480rwhp( @ 26psi). Generally makes 400rwhp @ 17psi.

Shoot me an email to discuss further( turblown@gmail.com)

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

I wouldn't take peoples advice on spool by X rpm. just look at some dyno sheets and that will tell the story. I always wanted a linear power delivery and why I chose the turbo I did (6266 in your case).

These turbo's are seen making more than 200WHP below 4000RPM, most of the other turbo's mentioned I have yet to see them do this.

The EFR7670 is a good selection as well but I am unsure if it would be a good selection at sea level. the more air available the quicker a larger turbo can spool.

Just keep looking at dyno sheets and how the power is laid down. It's tough finding turbo's that make this kind of power that low at this boost level (14-15PSI).

First picture is a GT35R, second is GT3574R, third is a t04S. notice WHP and RPM of the curves. the first two are low boost 14PSI ish dyno's.

Kman Art

iTrader: (1)

PowerFC doesn't support injectors above 1600cc. That's the problem I'm running into with my future plans.

Twin wastegates are the way to go. Especially with a twin scroll/divided manifold. Turblown/A-Spec, and Full-Race are three great manifolds.

Cast is ole skool. Technology has left that behind a long time ago.

As said earlier, look into a FMIC or VMIC setup. Added power will need added cooling.

A great thread to review is https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...build-1013942/

They do a lo of custom fabrication, but also shows the possibility of going with small turbo setup. Plus they sell some very good parts!


Good luck with your build!

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

PowerFC does support injectors that are over 1680. I am running 2000CC injectors right now.

The primary position is where you want to be careful with and I recommend running 550CC or 650CC primary injectors. you won't have to do any tricks (negative injector lag) when tuning the powerFC. The EV14 are also high impedence injectors and don't need any injector drivers, the EV14's are also affordable. I purchased (4) injectors (2) 650CC and (2) 2,000CC injectors for $411 shipped.

I run a .84 A/R hotside on my turbo, T4 flange. I think the setup spools great and pulls hard up top. perfect sizing for what I want to do. I am only pushing the turbo in the high 300's to low 400WHP range. Most of the time I have the boost turned down and probably in the low 300WHP range.

Kman Art

iTrader: (1)

Hate to thread jack but why such a small primary? You are the first person I've heard of running 2000s with PFC.

JDRX-7

iTrader: (1)

Well, I must be the 2nd!

Enigmatic

Thanks for the input guys. The 6266 is still sort of rare here in Australia, with only a few people starting to run them. I did look into them, and they seem to be really good but I couldn't find much info on them combined with the 13B! I would say 550cc primaries and 2000cc secondaries will be my choice. I have 850cc primaries right now and it is rich as hell on cruise and idle with a safe tune, idling around 1000rpm.

I've been reading till my eyesbleed these last few weeks, most recently about manifold design especially mounting location/runner length. Starting to do my head in!

boosted414

iTrader: (30)

Im running 1000cc primaries and essentially 2000cc secondaries on my PFC (the secondaries are actually 2x1000 per rotor for 4 total secondary injectors). All in a half bridge motor. Runs like a champ.

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

The powerFC can only control down to I think 1.9Ms on time. when the injectors are larger than 650CC you need to start running negative injector lag to compensate for this. I perfer to run things per design of the powerFC. If you run the car at altitude and you are doing downhill part throttle the smaller injectors can be more precisely controlled and inject small amounts of fuel to run at a reasonable AFR. The smaller injectors are also very easy to control during idle with the powerFC and fuel mileage seems to be better (when tuning to 15's AFR in low cruise cells).

If you run a different ECU you can step up the injector sizing for the primaries since they are more capable.

If you are running a gasoline fed engine and your goals are 400WHP or 450WHP, you aren't going to need more than 650CC primaries and 2000 secondaries. Why would you want to go larger in the primaries and lose driveability if you have a powerFC already?



Lots of people around here are running 2000CC secondary injectors with the powerFC.

the EV14's are affordable and have the same technology as the ID injectors from what i understand.

Kman Art

iTrader: (1)

Interesting info.

Trying to convert to single then convert to ethanol. Lots of converting going on.

Thanks for the info! Always learning new things about these cars.

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

Ethanol requires a lot more fuel. so you can get away with running larger primaries because the energy content is a lot less in ethanol. You are also supposed to run richer AFR's for ethanol as well. I believe stoich is different than that of gasoline, and also where to tune for max power.

and I think its a lot lower. 9:1 I think.

so the difference is 38%.

max power for gasoline is 12.5:1

ethanol is 6.975:1

difference is 44.2%.

average it out around 40% more fuel consumed.

run a car with 1/2 tank fuel to ensure cooled fuel pumps and good fuel pressure.

10 gallons.

MPG on gasoline is 14 MPG when aggressive driving, ethonal is 8.4MPG.

you are looking at 84 miles before every fill up. if you go to 1/3 of a tank it will be 111 miles.

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

solid choice on injector sizing IMO.

Ultimately what you want to look at is a wheel ratio close to 1:1.0 to about 1:1.2 slightly larger turbine wheel.

the 6266 is pretty good. Mated with a .84 A/R turbine housing and T4 flange you have quick spool and good flow. this will get you in that high 300's to mid 400's WHP range easy and still spool quickly. How do I know, I own one.

I have driven in an EFR7670, speedjunkie's car. His car is great as well. lots of lower end power and is a great choice. it is a smaller turbo and needs to push the boost to make its power, the power delivery is a little different, I would say his turbo is geared for a little lower RPM, but the 6266 should make more power up top with lower boost.

since your closer to sea level the 6266 is an attractive turbo to me. You can also shorten your intake piping and run a smaller 2 row intercooler for faster spool. if you choose an open dump wastgate running a 3" exhaust won't hurt you. 3.5" might be better if you want to push the power. if you plan on running more 450-500WHP area, then perhaps up to a 1.0 A/R size. Keep in mind that your fuel pump might be getting a work out at this level as well and might need to upgrade.


GT2860RS (Disco Potato).....................3.549................. ..3.105.................... 87%
FC T2 (OEM).........................................3.57 9....................4.288................... 119
BW EFR "6255".....................................3.7 9... ...................6.758....................178
TDO5H 18G..........................................4.375 ......................3.363....................77
BW EFR "6758"....................................4.49 8... .................6.758....................150
BW EFR "7064"....................................4.63 2... .................7.205.....................155
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................4.019................ ... 84
GT3071R........................................... ....4.776....................3.683................ .... 77
GT2876............................................ .....5.224.....................3.108.............. ..... 59
TO4E 57 Trim........................................5.369. ....................5.408 (Stg 5)......... 100
GT3776............................................ .....5.374.....................5.441.............. ...... 101
BW S200SX...........................................5 .40......................5.24..................... ....97
TO4E 60 Trim.........................................5.476 ....................5.408...................... 98
GT3076R........................................... .....5.511...................4.019................ ....... 73
BW EFR "7670"......................................5. 524. ..................7.694.......................139
GTX3076R.......................................... .....5.614..................4.019................. ......71.5
HKS TO4S.............................................. .5.64.....................5.89.................... ....104
Turbonetics 60-1....................................5.647........ ...........5.89....................... 104
Turbonetics T61......................................5.79..... ............... 5.89......................101
TO4B 62-1..............................................5.8 7..................... 5.89...................... 100
FD (OEM)............................................. ....5.972.................5.25.................... ..... 88
Precision 6062.........................................6.27. ...................5.408......................86
RX6 TCW77............................................. .6.356..................4.315..................... .68
Borg Warner S300SX 8375......................6.383..................5 .408.......................85
GT3582R........................................... ........6.386..................5.171.............. ........81
HTA 3582R (Forced Performance)............ 6.386.................5.171....................... 81
GT3574 (A-Spec, Turblown TD61)..............6.386..................5.89.(P) .................92
GT3082R........................................... .........6.386.................smaller than GT35R..?
Precision 6262...........................................6.4 48..................5.408.....................84
Precision 6265........................................... 6.448.................5.885 (P)...............91
GTX3582R.......................................... .........6.519..................5.171............. .......79
BW S362 FMW (billet)................................6.53...... ...............6.35......................97
BW EFR "8374"........................................ ..6. 626..................7.938....................119


if you look at the hot side and compressure side and the ratio's the TD61, GT3574R and 6265 are all very close and going to perform similar.

Full-Race Geoff

im with turblown on this, i do not like the short stubby runners. People often overlook the fact that exhaust gas velocity is what effectively spools a turbo - not backpressure.

and efr8374 will NOT disappoint you... very far from laggy. i use it on my evo and rb26, absolutely head over heels for that turbo

Enigmatic

I can't comment on runner length and design, because I have no experience. I do however know that I would prefer it low mounted and less prominent, considering the shitty laws we have in Australia for modifying cars. I want to make it stealthy as possible, and will be making up ducting and covers to try and keep it tidy and unsuspecting.

I contacted A-Sports about getting a short runner manifold for an RHD car and was advised he could do it but it will be a single gate due to fitment. I'm ok with that, surely one quality, properly sized gate (Tial 44 or 60mm?) will be ok. He sent me a pic which looks pretty friggin tidy!

A-Spec RHD Manifold:


Thanks for the info on the turbos. I really like all three options TDX61r, EFR7670 and PT6266, and have no idea what the deciding factor will be. Cost isn't overly important, I figure I'll do this once so I'm not worried about the price point really. Seems like EFR's are in stock now or at least more readily available! The TDX61r is reasonable at 1500 and ball bearing, 6266's at like 1300, and the EFR around 2000. I would be inclined to go with T4 Divided close to 1.0 for all of them. Not afraid of a little bit of lag if it is going to let the engine breathe and run a bit cooler for longevity.

I should mention I have a Sard 280lph pump, and will grab a FPR as well for the conversion.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Efr turbos will not fit a shorty manifold.

eliminster

Really don't tell speed junkie that he is running a shorty manifold with a 7670. Don't know exact length but its tucked right down by the engine in his fd and is twin scroll dual wastegated.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I am surprised, as most standard T04S( GT35R, To4Z, 60-1, etc) compressor housings are pretty tight in there, and anything over a 1.0 Turbine housing is an extremely tight fit( P trim). The EFR housings are much around 1" larger than a To4S housings IIRC. I am curious if he had to cheat the flange entrance to clock the turbo properly..

eliminster

In his thread efr 7670 he has pictures of it in his engine bay it's tight but it works and spools ultra quick.