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Fuel Pumps 2014

Old 11-16-14, 12:20 PM
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Thanks Howard!... assume you mean the 17.5 volt Boost-a-pump modelómy Supra pump is already rewired to get 13.5 volts.


Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
Peter,

you have enough pump for 500 rwhp.

you have enough fuel injector (550 plus 2100) for 500 rwhp

the 8374 can make 600 rotary.. 72 pounds at 68% efficiency, yes it will do it according to the comp map.

wastegates can stick

600 takes 4766 CC per minute net of lag but at 100% duty cycle which is fine as you are just at that point for a moment before you lift.

your fuel injectors will do 4506 so close enough IMO.

that just leaves you w a pump issue since your pump will do 3958 at 17 psi and less at the higher spike boost assumption.

IMO the solution is simple. rather than going w 2 pumps and getting into the plumbing business along w having your fuel recycling at a high rate just add a Boost A Pump. it only works in boost and you will soon forget it is in your car. set it at plus 20% volt gain.

i highly recommend you read Kenne Bell's Tech Section:

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...elpumptech.pdf

if you go w the BAP, make sure you call Kenne Bell, ask for Mike and stipulate as per Jim Bell, you want the 13.5 V model.

howard
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Old 11-16-14, 02:59 PM
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"assume you mean the 17.5 volt Boost-a-pump model"

nope. Kenne Bell has recently changed the BAP to 17.5 volts base. previously the pump started at 13.5 V and came w an adj dial. zero to 50% V gain.

you want the 13.5 V model and set it at plus 20% so your pump sees 15.9 call it 16 V. the pump will run forever at 16 or less and i don't recommend any more than 16.

you need to ask for Mike and tell him you want the 13.5 V model w the adj dial. this is cleared thru Jim Bell.

howard
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Old 12-21-14, 06:10 PM
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Looks like I could just upgrade from the Supra/Denso to the Aeromotive 340, and gain a bit of margin at 13.5 volts, and it's cheap.

The Bosch 044 is a great looking pump too, but it will require more modification—including to the hyperion fuel bucket cover, which is a PITA.

Is there any downside to the 340—especially bearing in mind I'll be using the OE fuel feed hard line for now?

Last edited by ptrhahn; 12-21-14 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 12-22-14, 06:43 AM
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fuel pump delivery at 60 psi and 73 psi

Walbro 9000262 5804-----------5047

Aeromotive 340 5333--------- 4500

Bosch 044 4500---------4167

Supra 4167---------3750

a Kenne Bell 13 .5 base V Boost A Pump run at 20% gain to 16.0 V will add over 40% fuel deliverability to the above pumps only in boost w no pump problems.

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Old 12-25-14, 04:48 PM
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Usually when it comes to choosing a fuel pump,turbo,wheels ect ect I tend to look at what guys are using on track instead of internet claims. Sometimes the numbers are pretty but the real race guys tend to tell a different story.
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Old 12-27-14, 10:55 PM
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Do tell.
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Old 12-28-14, 01:05 AM
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I have read(not here) and been told(by others who used the 255 and 262) the 90000262 is a far superior pump and is much quieter than previous models, which has been the downside(loud) to the 255 in the past
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Old 01-21-15, 08:49 PM
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So what are the high horsepower(700+rwhp) running for fuel setups?
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Old 01-21-15, 09:05 PM
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"what are the high horsepower(700+rwhp) running for fuel setups?"

type of fuel makes a difference, what are you going to be running?
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Old 01-21-15, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
"what are the high horsepower(700+rwhp) running for fuel setups?"

type of fuel makes a difference, what are you going to be running?
Pump gas/meth injection. Occasional race gas.
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Old 01-22-15, 04:22 AM
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The 90000262 is for pump or race gas the 90000267 is for E85 IIRC both are capable of supporting 1100 to 1300 hp
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Old 01-22-15, 06:28 AM
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"The 90000262 is for pump or race gas the 90000267 is for E85 IIRC both are capable of supporting 1100 to 1300 hp"

using the Walbro flow charts in post one:

Gas pump 9000262

at 30 psi boost plus 43.5 static (73.5) and 13.5 V

80 gallons per minute which supports 650 rotary rwhp at 10.0 AFR. while this is a conservative AFR it is best to have reserve and i have not deducted for line pressure loss which could be 2 psi. assuming a 1.3 ratio for piston engines 845 rw looks close to max unless you use a leaner AFR.

E85 Pump 9000267

at 30 psi boost plus 43.5 static (73.5) and 13.5 V

90 gallons per minute which supports 525 rotary rwhp at 10 AFR. 682 piston.

run at 16.0 volts w a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump delivery rises approx 40%.
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Old 01-22-15, 06:45 PM
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Ive already got a sump welded in awhile back cuz i was planning on going external. Want room to grow so i was thinking the drop in with a 044 inline. Thoughts? I figured about $400 for a pump so thatd save a lil cash as well.
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Old 03-25-15, 12:32 PM
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This is the only pump you need to run now.
In-Line Fuel Pumps | DeatschWerks
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Old 12-28-15, 09:12 AM
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Reviving old thread with new question:

Will the Kenne Bell BAP alter AFR? Let's say you set your adjustable fuel pressure regulator to give you the base pressure you want at idle and it increases 1:1 with boost and all is great. If you increase voltage to the pump by 20% to 16V at say, 10 psi, will that screw up AFR by overpowering your FPR adjustment?

It certainly would if you used idle only as an example. The flow of the pump at 13.5V and 16V varies by enough to require a different adjustment at the FPR to maintain the chosen fuel pressure. But under load, your engine is using much more of the fuel so the FPR may not be "overwhelmed" by the added flow from the increased voltage.

Or are you not using the Hobbs switch and just setting for 16V all of the time?

I like the idea of not heating up the fuel by not returning most of it in NA and low boost conditions. With a massive pump, that is what happens. Any comment on heating up fuel?

I am using the newer version of the DW300, which flows almost 275 LPH at 80 psi fuel pressure. It is designed to not flow massive amounts at low fuel pressure and to not drop off as sharply at high fuel pressure.

Standard Fitment Fuel Pumps : DW300 In-Tank Fuel Pump | DeatschWerks

I also have the KB BAP with cockpit controller set at 25 (out of 50) above 7 psi, but am wondering whether that is affecting my AFR (richer) and that choosing a fixed voltage and tuning for it is the better method and that heating fuel is of no real concern.
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Old 12-28-15, 10:40 AM
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Fuel pressure cannot be affected by pump flow until the pump flow is higher than the regulator can bleed off.
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Old 12-28-15, 11:03 AM
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To follow up, if I set my fuel pressure using an Aeromotive adjustable regulator at 44 psi with a Walbro 255 and then swapped in a Walbro 400, the fuel pressure regulator would require no adjustment to stay at 44 psi even though there is now 50% more fuel flowing that the regulator needs to bypass?
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Old 12-28-15, 11:45 AM
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fuel pump deliverability at 43.5 static (3 Bar) and 30 PSI boost

Walbro gas pump (262) 5173 CC/Min
Walbro E85 pump (267) 5741
AeroM Stealth 4166
Bosch 044 4200
DW300 4666

i log Differential fuel pressure which is fuel pressure minus boost. ideally the number should not change. i run a Walbro E85 pump and have my KB BAP set so as to drive the pump at 16.0 Volts in boost. i see no change in Diff FP as i go into boost and transition from 13.5 V to 16.

i run the common Aeromotive FPR and assume it is able to flow what is needed.

Howard.
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Old 12-28-15, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by turboe36m3 View Post
To follow up, if I set my fuel pressure using an Aeromotive adjustable regulator at 44 psi with a Walbro 255 and then swapped in a Walbro 400, the fuel pressure regulator would require no adjustment to stay at 44 psi even though there is now 50% more fuel flowing that the regulator needs to bypass?
Assuming that the regulator can flow enough, yes. That's what regulators do. Further, if there was a pressure issue at idle, adjusting the regulator would do no good since the problem would be mechanical instead of an adjustment issue.

You don't lose pressure when your injectors are working, do you? (Not until the fuel pump can't keep up anymore!)

That's why we have regulators with springs instead of just fixed orifices.
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Old 03-29-17, 07:21 PM
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Question for fuel pump gurus:

I'm running a Bosch 044 in tank, at 43.5 psi. I'd like to install a (TNT) internal surge tank it would draw from, but rather than relying on the return line and a check valve to fill the surge tank, I thought about installing my stock pump to feed it. Figure that pump is running at 0 psi line pressure into a 1 litre or so tank, so it shouldn't in my mind ever "get behind" feeding an 044 at 43.5, no?

The surge tank would still have the check valve, and I COULD add a second feed from the return line, but that's extra hassle.

My 044 is rewired from the battery, and on a separate EFI bulkhead plug, so I still have the stock plug empty. I'd just wire the stock pump from the original wiring so they aren't drawing from the same circuit. Currently the original power line just trips a relay to the pump.
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Old 10-17-17, 10:22 PM
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Is there a difference between the 2 different model numbers of the Walbro 450LPH; F90000267 and F90000274? Specs seem to be exactly the same. Maybe the F90000274 is a slightly newer revision?

TIA485-2 450LPH Walbro E85 Racing Fuel Pump F90000267

TIA450-2 450LPH Walbro E85 Racing Fuel Pump F90000274
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Old 10-18-17, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dawggpie View Post
Is there a difference between the 2 different model numbers of the Walbro 450LPH; F90000267 and F90000274? Specs seem to be exactly the same. Maybe the F90000274 is a slightly newer revision?

TIA485-2 450LPH Walbro E85 Racing Fuel Pump F90000267

TIA450-2 450LPH Walbro E85 Racing Fuel Pump F90000274
Yes, it's the internal relief valve on the 274 that allows a HIGHER pressure to be run. They are identical otherwise, and quite honestly, flow like **** over 90psi. These pumps KICK *** on lower pressure systems, but then you lose efficiency with injector spray pattern and quality.
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Old 10-20-17, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Yes, it's the internal relief valve on the 274 that allows a HIGHER pressure to be run. They are identical otherwise, and quite honestly, flow like **** over 90psi. These pumps KICK *** on lower pressure systems, but then you lose efficiency with injector spray pattern and quality.
Thanks for the input. What pressure do people usually run fd setups on with upgraded injectors, rails, pump and stock lines? I thought most still kept it around 36psi base which would be quite low. Increasing the pressure would allow for advantages with injector spray pattern?
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Old 10-20-17, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dawggpie View Post
Thanks for the input. What pressure do people usually run fd setups on with upgraded injectors, rails, pump and stock lines? I thought most still kept it around 36psi base which would be quite low. Increasing the pressure would allow for advantages with injector spray pattern?
There is a PSI number that everyone references in THIS thread. Me thinks this is where someone starts looking.
Me thinks looking at your injector spec sheet to see why one runs that PSI would also make sense.
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Old 10-23-17, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dawggpie View Post
Thanks for the input. What pressure do people usually run fd setups on with upgraded injectors, rails, pump and stock lines? I thought most still kept it around 36psi base which would be quite low. Increasing the pressure would allow for advantages with injector spray pattern?
Before getting into details, you all should have read this by now. Fuel Pressure Explained - Injector Dynamics

I'd say a good 90% of the aftermarket runs at 3 Bar (43.5psi) because that's what their injectors and fuel pumps are nominally rated at. When you boost an engine, the fuel pump must now work against that boost to inject. So for instance if you have a motor running 20psi of boost pressure, 43.5psi base fuel pressure, and a fuel pressure regulator with a rising rate of 1:1 (1psi of fuel pressure to 1psi of boost), then the pump's flow should be referenced somewhere in the range of 65-70psi to see what flow it's capable of there. You need to account for the pumping losses of the fuel rails.

Do the same thing for 70psi base pressure (in which your injectors are now misting and beautifully atomizing), and the fuel pump's flow reference figure is around 95psi for that same 20psi of boost. This is why the Walbro's are still not an ideal solution for the guy who's looking for efficiency at higher fuel pressures and why I myself am running 3x Bosch 044s in a staged configuration based on Estimated Fuel Flow. I'd rather run a stupid high base pressure and focus on engine efficiency than cram more and more boost into the engine. This is the same reasoning as to why on a boosted motor, I'd prefer to weigh timing as more important than boost #. No one wants a dogshit response...




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