Building a 500+ hp E85 motor. What mods are needed for the engine block?
11-18-07, 10:53 PM
#26
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viking war hammer is controllling 8 injectors with an e6x.
as far as your fuel needs, here is the equation that will give you your answer.
injector flow rate [cc/min]=Engine HP x BSFC x 10.5/ Injector duty cycle
BSFC is basic specific fuel consumption, i do not have the values for e85 but for gasoline it is between .6 & .7 and for methanol it is 1.2 to 1.4. This is according to marren fuel injection. i believe it should be between those two numbers for e85. Ok well i here is my rough estimation of the bsfc, im sure you can find a real value somewhere but im to lazy to search. Assuming the worst case situation you will be getting pure ethanol (the summer blend almost e100) you need about 34% more ethanol than a normal gasoline engine (see wikipedia entry "ethanol fuel"). Also assuming your car will operate at the highest value in the range for rotary bsfc, the estimated e100 bsfc for a rotary will be:
Rotary E100 bsfc= 1.34*.7= .959
Using .8 as our max duty cycle to provide us with a factor of saftey, people do run injectors up to 90% duty cycle but that is entirely up to you.
injector flow rate [cc/min]= 500x .959x10.5/.8=6300cc/min
I suppose now is where i appologize for my bad advice above on fuel injectors.
4 1680s will flow a total of 6720cc/min of fuel which should be eneough. assuming we did get our bsfc calculation correct.
If 500 is the minimum hp you will be happy with i suggest you do add more injector. For example, if you are able to make 600 hp you are going to need 7552 cc/min at 80% duty cycle. 4 1680 cc/min injectors at 80% duty cycle will not be enough. If you are willing to go up to 90% duty cycle you will need 6713 cc/min of injector. I guess you could also increase your fuel pressure but that is up to you. if i were doing this i would add 2 extra injectors. i hope this helped a bit and that i did not make any horrible miscalculations or bad assumptions. If you do use the stuff above spend some time checking things over, i only spent 15 minutes doing this and i may have missed something. You should do the engineering on it and post up the results. good luck on your project
as far as your fuel needs, here is the equation that will give you your answer.
injector flow rate [cc/min]=Engine HP x BSFC x 10.5/ Injector duty cycle
BSFC is basic specific fuel consumption, i do not have the values for e85 but for gasoline it is between .6 & .7 and for methanol it is 1.2 to 1.4. This is according to marren fuel injection. i believe it should be between those two numbers for e85. Ok well i here is my rough estimation of the bsfc, im sure you can find a real value somewhere but im to lazy to search. Assuming the worst case situation you will be getting pure ethanol (the summer blend almost e100) you need about 34% more ethanol than a normal gasoline engine (see wikipedia entry "ethanol fuel"). Also assuming your car will operate at the highest value in the range for rotary bsfc, the estimated e100 bsfc for a rotary will be:
Rotary E100 bsfc= 1.34*.7= .959
Using .8 as our max duty cycle to provide us with a factor of saftey, people do run injectors up to 90% duty cycle but that is entirely up to you.
injector flow rate [cc/min]= 500x .959x10.5/.8=6300cc/min
I suppose now is where i appologize for my bad advice above on fuel injectors.
4 1680s will flow a total of 6720cc/min of fuel which should be eneough. assuming we did get our bsfc calculation correct.
If 500 is the minimum hp you will be happy with i suggest you do add more injector. For example, if you are able to make 600 hp you are going to need 7552 cc/min at 80% duty cycle. 4 1680 cc/min injectors at 80% duty cycle will not be enough. If you are willing to go up to 90% duty cycle you will need 6713 cc/min of injector. I guess you could also increase your fuel pressure but that is up to you. if i were doing this i would add 2 extra injectors. i hope this helped a bit and that i did not make any horrible miscalculations or bad assumptions. If you do use the stuff above spend some time checking things over, i only spent 15 minutes doing this and i may have missed something. You should do the engineering on it and post up the results. good luck on your project
11-18-07, 11:34 PM
#27
thanks.
Ill probably end up going with a 62-1 setup on my current turbo and see how far we can go with that.
500 was a rough goal just to put down some cool numbers. This is going in a street driven, stripped down FB, that weights 2500 lbs with me in it. Its pretty out of control with the 250 or so it has now.
If I can stick to 4 injectors and my current ECU, that makes things a LOT easier.
Ill probably end up going with a 62-1 setup on my current turbo and see how far we can go with that.
500 was a rough goal just to put down some cool numbers. This is going in a street driven, stripped down FB, that weights 2500 lbs with me in it. Its pretty out of control with the 250 or so it has now.
If I can stick to 4 injectors and my current ECU, that makes things a LOT easier.
11-19-07, 12:10 AM
#28
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you may be able to find some really big injectors. i know motec a huge injector, magnus motors sports has a 2200cc/min injector but im not sure it fits. Also you probably can email marren and ask them if they have anything bigger than 1680cc/min.
11-19-07, 01:15 PM
#29
are my S5 fuel rails going to become a problem?
Im running the 6an adapters per FC3S.orgs (or something similar) website. The adapters had some resictors in the (as they were designed for a carburator), but I drilled them out to match the rails and the 6an line.
I doubt they would handle anything more than a 1680.
Im running the 6an adapters per FC3S.orgs (or something similar) website. The adapters had some resictors in the (as they were designed for a carburator), but I drilled them out to match the rails and the 6an line.
I doubt they would handle anything more than a 1680.
11-19-07, 11:45 PM
#33
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Easy way to remove any concern about the restrictive fitting on your fuel rail is to chop off the ends and weld or braze on male -6an fittings. costs about 20$ in parts to convert the rails. Most people would say to have the rails tig welded but mine are brazed and i have not had any problems.
random question... how cold is it up where you go to school? i am thinking about applying to u michigan @ ann arbor to do my masters but im not sure if i can deal with being that cold.
random question... how cold is it up where you go to school? i am thinking about applying to u michigan @ ann arbor to do my masters but im not sure if i can deal with being that cold.
11-20-07, 02:55 PM
#36
Interesting, I have bben looking to convert my FD to run E85
A big problem is the corrosive nature of the fuel itself.
I have been told that there need to be a lot of Chem resistant coating done to all bare aluminum surfaces.
Your injector sizing is definately enough, but what about a fuel pump that is resistant to the ethanol that can flow enough fuel.
I have not been able to find a fuel pump with the umph.
you gotta think, most cars that are made to run E85 are dredded ECONOMY cars
so finding preformance parts that have the proper resistant nature will most likely come from that other guys that run Ethanol (Drag Cars)
The probem with drag car arts (especially the ethanol dragsters) is that they are not built to last
there are a few pumps out there that can flow, but they have a pretty short life expectancy.
also you will have to prim and purge your fuel system, everythime you drive it. so ther is a need to re-engineer the fuel system to allow you to easly do so.
Just some food for thought, from someone who is seeking the same thing.
Except I'm trying to keep my car with Seq. BNR's
Please let me know if you disagree or have different/ better info.
A big problem is the corrosive nature of the fuel itself.
I have been told that there need to be a lot of Chem resistant coating done to all bare aluminum surfaces.
Your injector sizing is definately enough, but what about a fuel pump that is resistant to the ethanol that can flow enough fuel.
I have not been able to find a fuel pump with the umph.
you gotta think, most cars that are made to run E85 are dredded ECONOMY cars
so finding preformance parts that have the proper resistant nature will most likely come from that other guys that run Ethanol (Drag Cars)
The probem with drag car arts (especially the ethanol dragsters) is that they are not built to last
there are a few pumps out there that can flow, but they have a pretty short life expectancy.
also you will have to prim and purge your fuel system, everythime you drive it. so ther is a need to re-engineer the fuel system to allow you to easly do so.
Just some food for thought, from someone who is seeking the same thing.
Except I'm trying to keep my car with Seq. BNR's
Please let me know if you disagree or have different/ better info.
11-20-07, 04:25 PM
#38
Just turn up the boost!
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sk8ter, you really need to look in to this more. there are GOBS of street cars (daily driven) making in excess of 600whp and i'm takling about civics as well using everything from dual walbro's to dual A1000's. no line corrsion, failing pumps, etc..
11-20-07, 05:19 PM
#41
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people have had success using walbros to pump e85. Walbro does not rate their pumps as flex fuel. I have not heard anything about them breaking down over time. it would take some searchign but find a flex fuel car in production now and get its pump. OR you can just buy an alchy pump.
sk8erpunk, which injector setup do youthink is eneough? there were 2 or 3 different setups thrown out there
as far as corrosion, back in the late 80s and early 90s they coated the insides of fuel tanks of some car with (i forgot what materail) this will easily be corroded away. if i can find the article that said what it was ill post it up later. You will probably want some extra capacity anyway so you might as well install a fuel cell if oyu have the money. The cars on the market now that are rated for e85 use were DESIGNED with this in mind. you do have to worry about corrosion but oddly eneought its not that big of a problem. basically if you have any aluminum coming into contact with fuel it will corrode. this is only usually a problem with after market fuel rails. easy way to solve that is to have them anodized.
sk8erpunk, which injector setup do youthink is eneough? there were 2 or 3 different setups thrown out there
as far as corrosion, back in the late 80s and early 90s they coated the insides of fuel tanks of some car with (i forgot what materail) this will easily be corroded away. if i can find the article that said what it was ill post it up later. You will probably want some extra capacity anyway so you might as well install a fuel cell if oyu have the money. The cars on the market now that are rated for e85 use were DESIGNED with this in mind. you do have to worry about corrosion but oddly eneought its not that big of a problem. basically if you have any aluminum coming into contact with fuel it will corrode. this is only usually a problem with after market fuel rails. easy way to solve that is to have them anodized.
11-20-07, 05:30 PM
#42
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Your injector sizing is definately enough, but what about a fuel pump that is resistant to the ethanol that can flow enough fuel.
I have not been able to find a fuel pump with the umph.
you gotta think, most cars that are made to run E85 are dredded ECONOMY cars
so finding preformance parts that have the proper resistant nature will most likely come from that other guys that run Ethanol (Drag Cars)
The probem with drag car arts (especially the ethanol dragsters) is that they are not built to last
there are a few pumps out there that can flow, but they have a pretty short life expectancy.
also you will have to prim and purge your fuel system, everythime you drive it. so ther is a need to re-engineer the fuel system to allow you to easly do so.
11-20-07, 05:33 PM
#43
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If you've got a alum cell or rails, simply have them anodized. Problem solved. I'm be running E85 through the stock tank for awhile.
Do some reading here :
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=47094.0
and
http://e85forum.com/forum-1.html&sid...a3edd543a9afad
Do some reading here :
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=47094.0
and
http://e85forum.com/forum-1.html&sid...a3edd543a9afad
11-20-07, 07:01 PM
#47
If you've got a alum cell or rails, simply have them anodized. Problem solved. I'm be running E85 through the stock tank for awhile.
Do some reading here :
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=47094.0
and
http://e85forum.com/forum-1.html&sid...a3edd543a9afad
Do some reading here :
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...?topic=47094.0
and
http://e85forum.com/forum-1.html&sid...a3edd543a9afad
11-20-07, 11:17 PM
#49
Im pretty sure that my fuel cell is anodized inside and out, but I will have to check with summit racing.
I'm planning on two Walbro 255 externals, dual 3/8 hard line to injectors, ethanol fuel filters, Earls teflon lines (ethanol rated) and a Edelbrock alcohol FPR. I would probably just make some new stainless fuel rails in the machine shop, cant be that hard.
Ill probably run the fuel pumps on a staged system with the haltech, as I will be only running one 3/8 return line.
I'm planning on two Walbro 255 externals, dual 3/8 hard line to injectors, ethanol fuel filters, Earls teflon lines (ethanol rated) and a Edelbrock alcohol FPR. I would probably just make some new stainless fuel rails in the machine shop, cant be that hard.
Ill probably run the fuel pumps on a staged system with the haltech, as I will be only running one 3/8 return line.
11-21-07, 02:51 AM
#50
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nooo run the dual fuel pumps how it should be... one to each rail and the other sides of the rails to to the regulator and then run 1 return. way more efficienc than running 2 pumps yd together. i BELIEVE that the aeromotive a1000-6 regulator is alcohol safe. i know that regulator is setup to run 2 inlets and 1 return.
sk8erpunk, i doubt you will have trouble if your intake manifold is ceramic coated. check on the type of ceramic used then check if ethanol corrodes it. People do run methanol through the uim/lim and do not have any trouble. Lots of the guys in the AI forum do this.
the vapors from burning ethanol? um well you have ethanol reacting with oxygen to produce co2 and h2o. the onyl thing that is corrosive is ethanol. honestly i would not worry about the alcohol being corrosive once it leaves the intake manifold.
viking war hammer, do my fuel injector estimations look reasonable?
sk8erpunk, i doubt you will have trouble if your intake manifold is ceramic coated. check on the type of ceramic used then check if ethanol corrodes it. People do run methanol through the uim/lim and do not have any trouble. Lots of the guys in the AI forum do this.
the vapors from burning ethanol? um well you have ethanol reacting with oxygen to produce co2 and h2o. the onyl thing that is corrosive is ethanol. honestly i would not worry about the alcohol being corrosive once it leaves the intake manifold.
viking war hammer, do my fuel injector estimations look reasonable?