BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results
05-18-16, 12:16 AM
#201
Full Member
Just T into the solenoid line to try it out and do something more permanent (closer to the throttle) if you are happy with the result .
05-18-16, 07:47 AM
#202
I am confused. Not on how to hook everything up as described, but as to how this will solve the issue?
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
But the issue we are experiencing is at part boost pressure while modulating the throttle which will have the throttle body opening and closing, possibly completely, how would controlling boost pre-throttle help this situation? The wastegate is closed the entire time.
Yes, the turbo still does this with the boost controller open (off) and running just off the spring pressure.
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
But the issue we are experiencing is at part boost pressure while modulating the throttle which will have the throttle body opening and closing, possibly completely, how would controlling boost pre-throttle help this situation? The wastegate is closed the entire time.
Yes, the turbo still does this with the boost controller open (off) and running just off the spring pressure.
05-18-16, 08:51 AM
#203
I am confused. Not on how to hook everything up as described, but as to how this will solve the issue?
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
But the issue we are experiencing is at part boost pressure while modulating the throttle which will have the throttle body opening and closing, possibly completely, how would controlling boost pre-throttle help this situation? The wastegate is closed the entire time.
Yes, the turbo still does this with the boost controller open (off) and running just off the spring pressure.
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
But the issue we are experiencing is at part boost pressure while modulating the throttle which will have the throttle body opening and closing, possibly completely, how would controlling boost pre-throttle help this situation? The wastegate is closed the entire time.
Yes, the turbo still does this with the boost controller open (off) and running just off the spring pressure.
05-18-16, 09:17 AM
#204
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Does full exhaust like midpipe or resonated midpipe really makes that much of hp difference than hi flow cat? i need some help with my numbers to figure out if it's my exhaust or something else? I have ur mani & downpipe, 8374 turbo iwg, SMB hi flow cat with muffer and RB catback, i only made 356 rwhp with 17 psi. stock ports, no ignition break up, and 9's sparkplug with hks twin power plus running meth injection, and power fc.
05-18-16, 12:24 PM
#206
Tuning4life
I am confused. Not on how to hook everything up as described, but as to how this will solve the issue?
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
Well, I guess that would come down to how good the filtering is on the EBC and which post TB nipple you used.
I had my MAP sensor tapped off the nipples on the FD UIM primary runners at first and I will tell you I saw some interesting readings on the data logs and wonky 2ndary injector staging (stuttering).
The Dynamic Effect Intake pressure pulses from the ports opening/closing were 2-3psi spikes in the map signal.
I switched the MAP line to the proper location just behind the throttle body and had a cleaner signal and no more problems with stuttering when staging the 2ndary injectors.
Boost reference before the TB is definitely going to be the cleanest signal (ofc lacks vacuum signal so not an option for MAP signal).
I am confused. Not on how to hook everything up as described, but as to how this will solve the issue?
The turbo provides boost, the solenoid gets its pressure source from the turbo. The boost controller, the signal to open and close the wastegate to control boost pressure, is tapped into where the engine would see pressure to most accurately get the pressure you want.
Now if you tap into pre-throttle body you still get pressure but there will be slightly more pressure drop (not much) as boost travels down the UIM and LIM post throttle body and after your source.
Well, I guess that would come down to how good the filtering is on the EBC and which post TB nipple you used.
I had my MAP sensor tapped off the nipples on the FD UIM primary runners at first and I will tell you I saw some interesting readings on the data logs and wonky 2ndary injector staging (stuttering).
The Dynamic Effect Intake pressure pulses from the ports opening/closing were 2-3psi spikes in the map signal.
I switched the MAP line to the proper location just behind the throttle body and had a cleaner signal and no more problems with stuttering when staging the 2ndary injectors.
Boost reference before the TB is definitely going to be the cleanest signal (ofc lacks vacuum signal so not an option for MAP signal).
05-18-16, 03:15 PM
#207
Full Member
To put my previous explanations another way : with an EBC you are trying to control the turbo . Plumbing it into the manifold only controls the turbo accurately when the throttle is open ! When the throttle is closed the information it gets from the manifold is not relevant to what the turbo is actually doing. IE building up quite a bit of boost pre throttle.
I would still give it a go though , you may see an improvement.
Last edited by Brettus; 05-18-16 at 03:30 PM.
05-18-16, 05:14 PM
#208
That's the thing .... the WG isn't closed the entire time in that scenario . Plumb a boost gauge between the turbo and throttle and see what boost pressure you have at partial throttle as compared to post throttle . You may see up to 20psi pre throttle when post throttle is at zero or even in vacuum.
To put my previous explanations another way : with an EBC you are trying to control the turbo . Plumbing it into the manifold only controls the turbo accurately when the throttle is open ! When the throttle is closed the information it gets from the manifold is not relevant to what the turbo is actually doing. IE building up quite a bit of boost pre throttle.
If that is the case ..... doing what i suggested probably wont achieve anything.
I would still give it a go though , you may see an improvement.
To put my previous explanations another way : with an EBC you are trying to control the turbo . Plumbing it into the manifold only controls the turbo accurately when the throttle is open ! When the throttle is closed the information it gets from the manifold is not relevant to what the turbo is actually doing. IE building up quite a bit of boost pre throttle.
If that is the case ..... doing what i suggested probably wont achieve anything.
I would still give it a go though , you may see an improvement.
05-18-16, 05:30 PM
#209
Full Member
But in the situation you are describing manifold pressure is likely to be hovering around zero and BOV will definitely be closed.
Someone mentioned the synchronic BOV earlier ..... that could well solve your problem as they operate in a different way to other BOVs and it should help prevent that boost buildup pre throttle.
Remember that I'm not just spouting out theory here . This is a problem i also had and was able to completely solve very easily .
All it took for me was swapping one hose over . As your power fc also controls the tune using the same boost source , maybe not so easy............
Last edited by Brettus; 05-18-16 at 06:39 PM.
05-19-16, 03:39 AM
#211
Exhaust Manifold Leak
Depends on how much vacuum and how much tension is on the spring . I like to set the bov up such that it opens at idle which does help avoid too much boost build up .
But in the situation you are describing manifold pressure is likely to be hovering around zero and BOV will definitely be closed.
Someone mentioned the synchronic BOV earlier ..... that could well solve your problem as they operate in a different way to other BOVs and it should help prevent that boost buildup pre throttle.
Remember that I'm not just spouting out theory here . This is a problem i also had and was able to completely solve very easily .
All it took for me was swapping one hose over . As your power fc also controls the tune using the same boost source , maybe not so easy............
But in the situation you are describing manifold pressure is likely to be hovering around zero and BOV will definitely be closed.
Someone mentioned the synchronic BOV earlier ..... that could well solve your problem as they operate in a different way to other BOVs and it should help prevent that boost buildup pre throttle.
Remember that I'm not just spouting out theory here . This is a problem i also had and was able to completely solve very easily .
All it took for me was swapping one hose over . As your power fc also controls the tune using the same boost source , maybe not so easy............
As for solving this on the turbine side. therefore you need a really weak spring, of a dual port wastegate with 4 port solenoid with weak spring. With a normal actuator with lets say a 15-20 psi spring there will still be surge conditions possible because of lack of pressure to open the gate.
05-19-16, 08:14 AM
#212
A good BOV works indeed with differential pressure between upstream throttle and downstream throttle. lets say the threshold is 2 psi there cannot be more than 2psi more pressure upstream throttle than in the manifold. whether there is vacuum in the manifold or no does no make any difference.
As for solving this on the turbine side. therefore you need a really weak spring, of a dual port wastegate with 4 port solenoid with weak spring. With a normal actuator with lets say a 15-20 psi spring there will still be surge conditions possible because of lack of pressure to open the gate.
As for solving this on the turbine side. therefore you need a really weak spring, of a dual port wastegate with 4 port solenoid with weak spring. With a normal actuator with lets say a 15-20 psi spring there will still be surge conditions possible because of lack of pressure to open the gate.
Just trying to make sense of all this.
I completely can understand that the spring pressure on the BOV is too strong. It therefore takes a few PSI or possibly 5PSI pressure to relieve pressure. As you boost partially the wastegate is closed and the throttle closes and anything under 5PSI has no where to go but to back up to the turbo.
solution: less spring in BOV
Wastegate controls boost pressure. if the threshold boost is 15PSI, perhaps the computer or EBC will open it slightly before but its trying to maintain a 15PSI boost pressure by modulating the exhaust pressure/flow with the watsegate. Obviously the spring pressure of the wastegate controller is less than 15PSI, perhaps it is 10PSI.
Anything less then 10PSI does not effect the wastegate at all. If the problem is backed up pressure in the intecooler track, then how the heck does the wastegate have anything to do with the intercooler track and preventing/relieving this pressure build up?
if the pressure is 3PSI and is less than 5PSI threshold for BOV...solved.
I would be willing to try a softer spring if someone knows where to find one. I am using the BW BOV on the face of the turbo, I haven't been able to find one. I do see they have stiffer ones.
05-19-16, 08:25 AM
#213
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As you may already know Turbosmart makes BOVS and wastegates for the EFRs, Singles and Twin Ports but it does bother me that they do not provide a spec sheet on their website, they just claim that it's capable of controlling boost over 30 psi
05-19-16, 03:39 PM
#214
Full Member
A good BOV works indeed with differential pressure between upstream throttle and downstream throttle. lets say the threshold is 2 psi there cannot be more than 2psi more pressure upstream throttle than in the manifold. whether there is vacuum in the manifold or no does no make any difference.
.
.
As for solving this on the turbine side. therefore you need a really weak spring, of a dual port wastegate with 4 port solenoid with weak spring. With a normal actuator with lets say a 15-20 psi spring there will still be surge conditions possible because of lack of pressure to open the gate.
I run a 4 port solenoid with a 5psi spring in the WG and have no trouble boosting to 18psi plus ...FWIW.
Last edited by Brettus; 05-19-16 at 04:21 PM.
05-19-16, 04:31 PM
#215
Full Member
Just thought of something that might help clarify : At partial throttle , even with the wastegate OPEN , there can still be significant pressure pre throttle. There is very low flow though ( and no power ) so you open the throttle a little more .......... until ..............the wastegate suddenly closes and BAM........... say hello to the curb !
Put that boost gauge pre throttle , check pressure under the conditions you experience surge . From there you will know what you are dealing with .
Last edited by Brettus; 05-19-16 at 05:22 PM.
05-20-16, 08:24 AM
#217
we have someone local running an EFR 8374 with the turbosmart wastegate actuator, I believe its a 4port, so we can see if that makes any improvement.
if so I will report back and change my over, if not, oh well. He also has the metal cover from full race for the BOV, but I suspect that won't change anything.
if so I will report back and change my over, if not, oh well. He also has the metal cover from full race for the BOV, but I suspect that won't change anything.
05-20-16, 11:01 AM
#218
The twin port actuator paired with a 4-port boost control solenoid allow you to run a very low base spring pressure (basically as low as itll go without creeping) and run boost as high as you like. On a dual-purpose car or a car that uses flex-fuel this can be a nice feature.
05-20-16, 03:40 PM
#219
Full Member
The twin port actuator paired with a 4-port boost control solenoid allow you to run a very low base spring pressure (basically as low as itll go without creeping) and run boost as high as you like. On a dual-purpose car or a car that uses flex-fuel this can be a nice feature.
Good for when you drop the car off to get work done on it as well .... So when the hairy arsed apprentice takes it for a strop he can't get full boost.
05-21-16, 09:46 AM
#220
Originally Posted by Tuning4life
we have someone local running an EFR 8374 with the turbosmart wastegate actuator, I believe its a 4port, so we can see if that makes any improvement.
if so I will report back and change my over, if not, oh well. He also has the metal cover from full race for the BOV, but I suspect that won't change anything.
if so I will report back and change my over, if not, oh well. He also has the metal cover from full race for the BOV, but I suspect that won't change anything.
08-20-16, 06:11 PM
#225
Full Member
