boosting s4 NA gxl fc
04-06-12, 10:31 PM
#1
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boosting s4 NA gxl fc
i was wondering if its possible to turbo a NA s4 fc. i dont think ive seen any s4 na engines turbo. i see the intake manifolds on turbos face the otherway, would i need a TII intake mani or FD mani? thanks for help.
04-08-12, 09:10 PM
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yes its possible and in some cases even more awesome then the already boosted cars.
IN theory if you do your homework you can make more power on less boost. Which is what we all strive for is it not?
IN theory if you do your homework you can make more power on less boost. Which is what we all strive for is it not?
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got_boost (07-26-21)
04-16-12, 01:48 AM
#7
The most "difficult" part is porting the TII manifold to match up w/ the n/a ports (if you even choose to do it that way). If swapping a front cover, a pair of electronics and running an oil line is too much trouble, then perhaps such a person shouldn't be trusted w/ a turbo car even in stock form.
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04-16-12, 06:55 AM
#8
my bother turbo'd his s4 na for $400. we ended up usng a TII afm, 720cc secondaries, and a cheap used turbo with manifold and downpipe, and all the needed plumbing
we retarded the cas by 5 degrees, and with a wideband, tuned the secondary injectors by putting resistors in line. 25 ohm turned out to be best afr. it ran very reliably, the only thing he needed was a bigger fuel pump, as it would lean out at high rpm at 10 psi on the stocker. it was funny b/c the check engine light would come on at around 5psi
we retarded the cas by 5 degrees, and with a wideband, tuned the secondary injectors by putting resistors in line. 25 ohm turned out to be best afr. it ran very reliably, the only thing he needed was a bigger fuel pump, as it would lean out at high rpm at 10 psi on the stocker. it was funny b/c the check engine light would come on at around 5psi
04-16-12, 11:00 AM
#9
Well, when there are 500 threads on the topic and your post reveals that you obviously have done no research then flaming should be expected.
Even a stock turbo would boost the performance of most n/a cars by 100 hp.
The most "difficult" part is porting the TII manifold to match up w/ the n/a ports (if you even choose to do it that way). If swapping a front cover, a pair of electronics and running an oil line is too much trouble, then perhaps such a person shouldn't be trusted w/ a turbo car even in stock form.
Even a stock turbo would boost the performance of most n/a cars by 100 hp.
The most "difficult" part is porting the TII manifold to match up w/ the n/a ports (if you even choose to do it that way). If swapping a front cover, a pair of electronics and running an oil line is too much trouble, then perhaps such a person shouldn't be trusted w/ a turbo car even in stock form.
I partially agree with what you are saying. If the OP is happy with 220hp and never wants more, then it could be worth it. But lets be honest, when it comes to boost, most of us always end up wanting more.
My point is range. With a TII you have a much larger range of available power. An owner can enjoy its stock 180hp or easily make 400whp with bolt-ons. The engine and drivetrain are flexible enough to handle that range of power.
An NA engine doesn't quite have it. Higher compression, weaker drivertrain, and overall lack of design for the power makes things a bit tough, and unreliable. Is it possible? Of course..... But as I said, the amount of time and money spent will easily begin to make it more of a headache then just buying a well sorted TII.
04-24-12, 08:48 AM
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^you can bolt a t2 trans and rear end up to an na engine. not that hard, a little more time and money but its an option. the high compression can be a problem though on na-t. a really good rotary tuner is needed and I wouldn't want to go more then 300rwhp on a high compression block if I wanted some reliability.
04-24-12, 09:05 AM
#12
^you can bolt a t2 trans and rear end up to an na engine. not that hard, a little more time and money but its an option. the high compression can be a problem though on na-t. a really good rotary tuner is needed and I wouldn't want to go more then 300rwhp on a high compression block if I wanted some reliability.
Getting a decent turbo, fabricating it to work with the NA engine, fabricating intercooler & Bov, bigger injectors, a way to control fuel & timing, upgrading the clutch, TII tranny, driveshaft, rearend, and limiting boost due to high compression or running water injection.
Again, by the time you buy all the parts, and invest the time, it is hardly worth it. If the OP sold his NA car for $2k, these parts will easily cost another $2k or more. $4k for a running TII is very feasible. A proper setup with room to grow.
04-24-12, 09:50 AM
#13
Eh... I would say 86.17% wrong. 
High compression rotors don't necassaryily make an engine unreliable. It's the limit of higher boost and pump gas that causes issues. As many have proven, it's a complete non-issue with race gas, as many high HP drag cars are built with higher compression rotors.
However, the typical street runner could wave the flag of unreliability when put in their own threshold of pump limitations. But as many are learning, auxilary injection can change everything.
High compression rotors don't necassaryily make an engine unreliable. It's the limit of higher boost and pump gas that causes issues. As many have proven, it's a complete non-issue with race gas, as many high HP drag cars are built with higher compression rotors.
However, the typical street runner could wave the flag of unreliability when put in their own threshold of pump limitations. But as many are learning, auxilary injection can change everything.
04-24-12, 01:30 PM
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I'm just thinking vs a lower compression motor (i.e. t2) and referring to detonation. you have a smaller margin of error tuning wise with high compression turbo motors don't you? thats what I've always been told. with lower compression, you can get away with a little bit more "errors" in tuning. I might be wrong when it comes to rotaries though. piston guys have told me these things.
but I have seen people turbo their na FC's for $500 (just engine stuff and ecu to get the car driving with boost).* I think one guy was just using a stock s5 turbo but put down 235hp.
* may or may not have gotten some rediculous deals on parts.
but I have seen people turbo their na FC's for $500 (just engine stuff and ecu to get the car driving with boost).* I think one guy was just using a stock s5 turbo but put down 235hp.
* may or may not have gotten some rediculous deals on parts.
04-25-12, 02:00 PM
#15
^ Agreed. When people mention high compression and reliability it usually comes down to pump gas and a street car. The margin of tuning is the same, it's just not as capable because of the playing field..... pump gas. Octane, detonation, boost and timing are all relative to both rotaries and piston engines. There is just much less tolerance for detination, and of course richer AFR's. But as I mentioned axilary injection now plays a very big role in pump gas capabilities.
As far as boosting an FC for $500 goes.... it can be done. But 9 out of 10 people will come back and redo their setup because they want more power reliably than the NA application can not provide.
A TII is just a better platform, and that platform isn't some unattainable unicorn, it's a few thousand more than an NA FC. And if you have been in the rotary game very long, you learn that you can blow a few thousand on a clutch, shocks and springs.
As far as boosting an FC for $500 goes.... it can be done. But 9 out of 10 people will come back and redo their setup because they want more power reliably than the NA application can not provide.
A TII is just a better platform, and that platform isn't some unattainable unicorn, it's a few thousand more than an NA FC. And if you have been in the rotary game very long, you learn that you can blow a few thousand on a clutch, shocks and springs.
04-26-12, 03:22 AM
#17
The appeal of the N/A-t is not so much the overall savings (since speding another 1k on a 2k car gets you into the range of decent running TII's) but rather the incremental nature of the costs. Plus not having to deal with the hassle of selling your car and waiting for a good price on a local TII. Not to mention people who may have gotten paint jobs or performed other exterior moditificaitons.
Considering power levels will be similar (favoring the n/a-t if anything) there really isn't much incentive other than the drivetrain to go TII, and that can be upgraded when the turbo setup is upgraded. Hell, Aaron cake ran around w/ over 400whp on the n/a crap for a while.
Considering power levels will be similar (favoring the n/a-t if anything) there really isn't much incentive other than the drivetrain to go TII, and that can be upgraded when the turbo setup is upgraded. Hell, Aaron cake ran around w/ over 400whp on the n/a crap for a while.
04-26-12, 09:31 AM
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If I was staying with a stock turbo, I would just go na-t since it would make slightly better power at the stock level then a comparable t2. I'm thinking maybe a little better response too but I'm not sure. I already have a torn apart t2 motor though and want 300-350rwhp so might as well just rebuild that.
04-26-12, 11:04 AM
#19
Most NA-T swaps seem to arise because the owner already has economical/emotional investment in the car, as Sharingan pointed out. They also tend to be relative newbies looking to improve thier NA rather than someone building for maximum engine output. Otherwise, they'd just build a turbo engine with high compression rotors.
Problems with the TII externals/ecu on a 6-port block are:
-6-ports are essentially wired open - Fix requires custom manifold/downpipe
-running constantly retarded timing - Fix requires programmable ECU and tuning
Both of these should make it less responsive, but somewhat alleviated by the high compression rotors. I honestly don't know if they'll balance out, but these are drawbacks because of how I personally use the car. Either of these fixes will negate any cost advantage of the NA-T swap versus buying a TII swap.
Problems with the TII externals/ecu on a 6-port block are:
-6-ports are essentially wired open - Fix requires custom manifold/downpipe
-running constantly retarded timing - Fix requires programmable ECU and tuning
Both of these should make it less responsive, but somewhat alleviated by the high compression rotors. I honestly don't know if they'll balance out, but these are drawbacks because of how I personally use the car. Either of these fixes will negate any cost advantage of the NA-T swap versus buying a TII swap.
04-26-12, 12:22 PM
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ya I see where you're coming from there. I was planning on going haltech anyway so forgot about that. a t2 manifold can be modified for the 6 port as well, saw a writeup somewhere and its not incrdibly hard to do. like porting kinda. I thought that having the 6 port all the time was an advantage to this? maybe not for mpg's but for performance. always thought that was the biggest reason for it.
for the record, anyone can drop in t2 engines in an na chassis and still use na harness, all plugs are there. so time put into the chassis shouldn't matter, just swap it. sidenote: after I build my t2 engine and inevitably blow it up drifting, I'm going 1jz.
for the record, anyone can drop in t2 engines in an na chassis and still use na harness, all plugs are there. so time put into the chassis shouldn't matter, just swap it. sidenote: after I build my t2 engine and inevitably blow it up drifting, I'm going 1jz.
04-26-12, 01:44 PM
#21
ya I see where you're coming from there. I was planning on going haltech anyway so forgot about that. a t2 manifold can be modified for the 6 port as well, saw a writeup somewhere and its not incrdibly hard to do. like porting kinda. I thought that having the 6 port all the time was an advantage to this? maybe not for mpg's but for performance. always thought that was the biggest reason for it.
Yes, I am aware of a turbo swap, but that's not the point of this thread according to the title. Honestly, why don't you just swap the 1JZ now instead of wasting all this time and money building a 13BT which you intend to destroy? Since you already decided it is better.
04-28-12, 03:53 AM
#22
Lots of theorizing not a lot of experience...
Apparently none of you have driven an n/a-t setup. Even with the TII LIM portmatched to the 6 port block (running with the aux "wired open) the low end is still better than a turbo engine (S4 at least, 8.5 CR rotors are trash for low end). Add to that boost comes on faster and harder with n/a rotors and for 300-350 whp you'd be hard pressed to beat it.
The success and longevity of a high comp boost setup is completely dependent upon the quality of the tune and the efficiency of the intake charge cooling. No disrespect, but it doesn't sound like anyone in this thread qualifies as a tuner, so if you are considering a stand alone ask your tuner what they are comfortable working on.
As far as a 1J, no engine is idiot proof, if you can't figure out how to keep a 13b in one piece chances are you'll be looking at an RB swap after that blows up, and an LS when that bites the dust.
Apparently none of you have driven an n/a-t setup. Even with the TII LIM portmatched to the 6 port block (running with the aux "wired open) the low end is still better than a turbo engine (S4 at least, 8.5 CR rotors are trash for low end). Add to that boost comes on faster and harder with n/a rotors and for 300-350 whp you'd be hard pressed to beat it.
The success and longevity of a high comp boost setup is completely dependent upon the quality of the tune and the efficiency of the intake charge cooling. No disrespect, but it doesn't sound like anyone in this thread qualifies as a tuner, so if you are considering a stand alone ask your tuner what they are comfortable working on.
As far as a 1J, no engine is idiot proof, if you can't figure out how to keep a 13b in one piece chances are you'll be looking at an RB swap after that blows up, and an LS when that bites the dust.
04-28-12, 05:41 AM
#23
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My s4 6port turbo blows the Doors off of my s5 na and stock tII uses all turbo manifolds and an rtek I spent the same as I would with building up a turbo model and it was well worth it for the daily driver
04-28-12, 08:59 AM
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Yes, I am aware of a turbo swap, but that's not the point of this thread according to the title. Honestly, why don't you just swap the 1JZ now instead of wasting all this time and money building a 13BT which you intend to destroy? Since you already decided it is better.
As far as a 1J, no engine is idiot proof, if you can't figure out how to keep a 13b in one piece chances are you'll be looking at an RB swap after that blows up, and an LS when that bites the dust.
Hahaha