Blown apex seal cause---coils, tuning?
09-24-09, 11:21 PM
#1
Blown apex seal cause---coils, tuning?
Hi all, I just have a problem with my FD. The car has been on the Shop for about 11 months and when finally it comes back to me, the apex seals go in less than 2 weeks.
As I said on the original thread I opened about coils for the FD, the engine builder (very reputable Rotary builder and well known one) told me that seems to be that the cause were the coils that were bad and the spark plug wires that were old and had too much resistance.
Ok weak coils can not blow up an engine, but what about a strong coil that has old connections or slightly cracked plastic surrounding the connection with the wire or very bad wires that have too much resistance?
Can it shoot a spark that travels a different path instead of the wire and make the mixture ignite at a slightly different time causing the apex seals to break after a period of around 1000 miles?
The engine builder was trying to show me what he thought could be the culprit to the problem and was some marks on the coil neck where it meets the wire boot. He said that sometimes you can really see the path that the spark is traveling and leaves a mark that can not be cleaned. (kinda like a lightning bolt) I just forgot the name of it.
But all he found was just some discoloration on the tip of the neck ( I don't know if the section where the coil meets the wire has a name) on both the trailing coils.
The engine , to give a small idea, is a half bridge port, GT35R turbo, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, etc.
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
The first time they built the engine, it blew up on the dyno at about 1000 miles. Same crap, apex seals.
Now it was running fine and I picked it up. I used it for about a week and a half and used the high setting only twice for 4 seconds. the rest of the time I used the low setting and actually only did about 5 or 6 WOT pulls for about 10 seconds.
That day I was just cruising and started accelerating fast on third gear and around 6500 rpm, and 11 PSI, the car just gave and started working on 1 rotor. And that was the end of it.
I am really annoyed because the first time I had to pay for the removal and installation of the engine (not the rebuild) but now if it was the coils or plugs, I will have to pay for everything.
So if someone has an idea if the coils or plugs can cause something like these please respond on this thread.
I know there are many very knowledgeable people here (Gurus if you wanna hear the term again) that can chime in with some interesting idea or experience regarding the matter.
I will post this on the Single turbo section with a link to this thread since I am using a single turbo.
Thank you very much for any help...
Leo
As I said on the original thread I opened about coils for the FD, the engine builder (very reputable Rotary builder and well known one) told me that seems to be that the cause were the coils that were bad and the spark plug wires that were old and had too much resistance.
Ok weak coils can not blow up an engine, but what about a strong coil that has old connections or slightly cracked plastic surrounding the connection with the wire or very bad wires that have too much resistance?
Can it shoot a spark that travels a different path instead of the wire and make the mixture ignite at a slightly different time causing the apex seals to break after a period of around 1000 miles?
The engine builder was trying to show me what he thought could be the culprit to the problem and was some marks on the coil neck where it meets the wire boot. He said that sometimes you can really see the path that the spark is traveling and leaves a mark that can not be cleaned. (kinda like a lightning bolt) I just forgot the name of it.
But all he found was just some discoloration on the tip of the neck ( I don't know if the section where the coil meets the wire has a name) on both the trailing coils.
The engine , to give a small idea, is a half bridge port, GT35R turbo, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, etc.
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
The first time they built the engine, it blew up on the dyno at about 1000 miles. Same crap, apex seals.
Now it was running fine and I picked it up. I used it for about a week and a half and used the high setting only twice for 4 seconds. the rest of the time I used the low setting and actually only did about 5 or 6 WOT pulls for about 10 seconds.
That day I was just cruising and started accelerating fast on third gear and around 6500 rpm, and 11 PSI, the car just gave and started working on 1 rotor. And that was the end of it.
I am really annoyed because the first time I had to pay for the removal and installation of the engine (not the rebuild) but now if it was the coils or plugs, I will have to pay for everything.
So if someone has an idea if the coils or plugs can cause something like these please respond on this thread.
I know there are many very knowledgeable people here (Gurus if you wanna hear the term again) that can chime in with some interesting idea or experience regarding the matter.
I will post this on the Single turbo section with a link to this thread since I am using a single turbo.
Thank you very much for any help...
Leo
09-24-09, 11:43 PM
#2
Also I forgot to add, I went to see when the engine was opened and the builder explained to me how it would look if the engine had pinging or detonation, overheating, bad apex seal, etc.
He said the typical way that a detonation breaks the seals is very close to the corner.
So when he opened it, it was like that. I have some crappy pictures that I will upload in a bit that would hopefully show the broken seal better.
Thanks.
Leo
He said the typical way that a detonation breaks the seals is very close to the corner.
So when he opened it, it was like that. I have some crappy pictures that I will upload in a bit that would hopefully show the broken seal better.
Thanks.
Leo
09-25-09, 12:54 AM
#3
The pictures...
Ok here are the pictures.
The Apex Seal broken on one end:
The side of the rotor showing the damage done to it by the apex seal. And on the way there, it seems that it ended up breaking the other apex seal.
A shot of the bridge port without a scratch, so no side seals did any damage.
Well I hope this helps a little in understanding what could have caused the problem.
Leo
The Apex Seal broken on one end:
The side of the rotor showing the damage done to it by the apex seal. And on the way there, it seems that it ended up breaking the other apex seal.
A shot of the bridge port without a scratch, so no side seals did any damage.
Well I hope this helps a little in understanding what could have caused the problem.
Leo
09-25-09, 08:36 AM
#5
Rotary Enthusiast
as a guy that has blown a few engines due to crappy ignition, yes you coils can break your engine. most of the times you get ignition break up that prevents the engine from reving at high revs. but it could be a problem with the coil acting up at times only and you would not notice it. or it just died on you that day, and fucked up the iginition.
the damage on the apex seal looks like detonation tho. no carbon build up due to the water injection so that's fine. and don't look to be anything else then a detonation that has caused it. but i would have a look at the rotor housings yes. and look at the spark plug holes. so if you can get pictures of that, it would be great.
JT
the damage on the apex seal looks like detonation tho. no carbon build up due to the water injection so that's fine. and don't look to be anything else then a detonation that has caused it. but i would have a look at the rotor housings yes. and look at the spark plug holes. so if you can get pictures of that, it would be great.
JT
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09-25-09, 11:58 AM
#8
Well, I have Apexi PowerFC and unfortunately I dont have pictures of the housing where the spark plug is. I will see if they can take a picture. The problem is that the shop is very far from me and I can not go every day.
The car ran very smooth (well as smooth as a bridge port with a 6 puck clutch can be
and just died suddenly.
As for the water pump, I have the stock one. Thats another thing I want to change. Is the Remedy the best out there? I have read tons about the mods for the FD but not much regarding the water pump since it doesnt seem to be a really weak point on the engine.
Yes, I would love to change builders but there is not many around here.
Thanks for the comments...
Leo
The car ran very smooth (well as smooth as a bridge port with a 6 puck clutch can be
and just died suddenly.As for the water pump, I have the stock one. Thats another thing I want to change. Is the Remedy the best out there? I have read tons about the mods for the FD but not much regarding the water pump since it doesnt seem to be a really weak point on the engine.
Yes, I would love to change builders but there is not many around here.
Thanks for the comments...
Leo
09-25-09, 12:13 PM
#9
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so, if you want help, you need to answer questions. who built and tuned it? for the money you have spent you are better off to have engine sent off to someone more reputable and have it built. then bring a tuner in to a local dyno and have him tune it.
09-25-09, 12:53 PM
#10
More likely then the ignition system killing your engine is the trigger.
Although the FD is superior to the FC in that regard, I've seen a small number of FD's with crank angle sensor wiring cracked and aged at the the plugs for the sensors. Be sure to examine that wiring with a FINE TOOTH COMB, especially if your stock harness was not replaced when the PFC was installed.
I was in your shoes for approx. 5 engines. Don't worry, you'll get it.
Although the FD is superior to the FC in that regard, I've seen a small number of FD's with crank angle sensor wiring cracked and aged at the the plugs for the sensors. Be sure to examine that wiring with a FINE TOOTH COMB, especially if your stock harness was not replaced when the PFC was installed.
I was in your shoes for approx. 5 engines. Don't worry, you'll get it.
09-25-09, 03:01 PM
#13
It wasn't me!!
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More likely then the ignition system killing your engine is the trigger.
Although the FD is superior to the FC in that regard, I've seen a small number of FD's with crank angle sensor wiring cracked and aged at the the plugs for the sensors. Be sure to examine that wiring with a FINE TOOTH COMB, especially if your stock harness was not replaced when the PFC was installed.
I was in your shoes for approx. 5 engines. Don't worry, you'll get it.
Although the FD is superior to the FC in that regard, I've seen a small number of FD's with crank angle sensor wiring cracked and aged at the the plugs for the sensors. Be sure to examine that wiring with a FINE TOOTH COMB, especially if your stock harness was not replaced when the PFC was installed.
I was in your shoes for approx. 5 engines. Don't worry, you'll get it.
I just just about to say this. It happened to me and I have a log of it, thats how I know. Check your wiring and keep logs of everything
09-26-09, 12:00 PM
#14
buy a datalogit (you're spending so much money on the motor, spend money on engine management) and post up the map in your PFC.
it probably has a shitty timing map or fuel tables/corrections that can't adjust to different ambient conditions and driving conditions
it probably has a shitty timing map or fuel tables/corrections that can't adjust to different ambient conditions and driving conditions
09-27-09, 10:56 PM
#16
Well all those are possibilities for sure. The guys that do the tuning seem to be pretty knowledgeable but you never know. I will try to get a copy of the tuning maps.
Also they are trying to get me a picture of the Housing on the area of the spark plug hole as some people requested it.
I am sorry if I don't say any names but I want to make sure what is going on before I point any fingers, but is getting very close to the point where I will do so.
Leo
Also they are trying to get me a picture of the Housing on the area of the spark plug hole as some people requested it.
I am sorry if I don't say any names but I want to make sure what is going on before I point any fingers, but is getting very close to the point where I will do so.
Leo
10-02-09, 05:59 AM
#17
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I hate to make you feel bad, cause we've all been there, but it looks like you may want to find another tuner. Thats detonation. If you have nobody local, look for somebody that comes to your location like Steve Kan. Otherwise, if you have a trailor take it someplace thats well known for tuning and building.
10-02-09, 12:34 PM
#18
Tuning maps...
Yes I know you are almost sure right 
. But the guys sent me the tuning maps they used. I dont have FC-Datalogit so I will have a friend here use his to take a snapshot of the map and I will post it hopefully today later.
Thanks.
Leo
. But the guys sent me the tuning maps they used. I dont have FC-Datalogit so I will have a friend here use his to take a snapshot of the map and I will post it hopefully today later.Thanks.
Leo
10-04-09, 11:44 PM
#20
Blown apex seal, could it be TUNING??
Well, I very well know that most of the time is tuning the responsible one for this problem, but I needed the title to "call" people to see and comment on the tuning maps that I got from the shop.
Again as a reference, here are the engine specs:
A half bridge port, GT35R turbo w/ a big air filter, Apexi pfc, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, 9 NGK plugs, .
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
But the only things that were still stock were the coils, the water pump and some good high performance spark plug wires that were already maybe 30,000 miles old?
So the tuners said the car was running nice (never had an ignition problem) and after I picked up the car, ran it for less than 2 weeks and barely boosted it. One day while running at 11 PSI and 6500 rpm, the engine started running on 1 rotor and that was it.
The engine builder thinks it was the coils that were old. The tuner checked the spark plug wires and found out that they had very high resistance.
Some people already commented on the first thread I did regarding this problem and many thought that it was the tuning responsible for it so here are the tuning maps they sent me from the shop to see if someone with experience on this can give me an idea if there is something strange here.
I unfortunately dont have much experience with this yet. But will learn as soon as I can.
Thanks for any insights you may have.
Leo
Again as a reference, here are the engine specs:
A half bridge port, GT35R turbo w/ a big air filter, Apexi pfc, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, 9 NGK plugs, .
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
But the only things that were still stock were the coils, the water pump and some good high performance spark plug wires that were already maybe 30,000 miles old?
So the tuners said the car was running nice (never had an ignition problem) and after I picked up the car, ran it for less than 2 weeks and barely boosted it. One day while running at 11 PSI and 6500 rpm, the engine started running on 1 rotor and that was it.
The engine builder thinks it was the coils that were old. The tuner checked the spark plug wires and found out that they had very high resistance.
Some people already commented on the first thread I did regarding this problem and many thought that it was the tuning responsible for it so here are the tuning maps they sent me from the shop to see if someone with experience on this can give me an idea if there is something strange here.
I unfortunately dont have much experience with this yet.
But will learn as soon as I can.Thanks for any insights you may have.
Leo
10-04-09, 11:45 PM
#21
Interesting...
Thanks Barry for that interesting thread. I will have to talk to the engine builder regarding that and see what he thinks. Also I am waiting for the pictures of the housing on the area of the spark plug to see if it tells me anything interesting.
I finally have the tuning maps that they sent me and was able to get a friend to use his FC Datalogit to read them.
I will post them in another thread I will start so that everyone that can take a peek at them could comment on them and see if there is something that looks wrong.
I am doing a new thread so that the title explains better the fact that I have the maps and want some advice on them.
Here it is.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...45#post9541345
Thanks everyone for the help.
Leo
I finally have the tuning maps that they sent me and was able to get a friend to use his FC Datalogit to read them.
I will post them in another thread I will start so that everyone that can take a peek at them could comment on them and see if there is something that looks wrong.
I am doing a new thread so that the title explains better the fact that I have the maps and want some advice on them.
Here it is.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...45#post9541345
Thanks everyone for the help.
Leo
10-05-09, 06:12 PM
#22
Well it seems that the moderators moved my new thread and merged it into this one?
It kinda ruined the reason why I opened another thread.
I wanted new people to look into it to try to find the a problem witht the tuning specs
Well, just hear some people here then
Thanks.
It kinda ruined the reason why I opened another thread.
I wanted new people to look into it to try to find the a problem witht the tuning specs
Well, just hear some people here then
Thanks.
10-06-09, 02:08 PM
#23
the mazda zoom zoom store
That map is screw up, your PIM volt is wrong on option 2 and the offset is way the freaking wrong. Your injectors setting are all screw up, they are way off. That's why you keep blowing motors, send us you PFC. We can put a map on it for you, www.rx7store.net
10-06-09, 04:21 PM
#25
Your injectors setting are all screw up, they are way off.
The IAT correction table looks to be default. That could cause some problems if the IAT sensor heatsoaked and there was not enough of a safety factor in the fuel map. The leading timing is pretty conservative assuming it uses the default N and P scaling. The split seems to be about 12 degrees or so? I can't find any smoking guns with the timing. In fact, I can't find any smoking guns on this map except maybe for the IAT table and maybe the pressure sensor offset setting. The INJ/basemap fuel tables are kind of useless to look at, I have no idea what AFR it was actually hitting. The 50% PIM volt settings are weird, but they can be compensated for in other tables. I can't see you driving away from a dyno session with AFR's superlean.
I would say that these maps you posted are inconclusive without a number of good logs to show injector staging, hot starts, etc.