Blew the Engine! Need Help Diagnosing!
10-07-10, 12:53 AM
#51
The only other thing I don't understand is why everyone runs 9's all around. You know the trailing spark plug hole is smaller and holds more heat, and that is the reason the factory runs 9's instead of 7's. I am not running near the boost you are but at 16 psi on the street I run 9's L and 10.5's T on 91.
In the piston world a 9 heat range is already ridiculously cold (most turbo cars come with a 6 from the factory). Plenty of high boost piston motors put out some crazy EGT's almost comparable to a rotary.
10-07-10, 03:14 AM
#52
It's like the hand of God smacks the car. The whole drivetrain takes this one, singular huge blast of BAM. When driving, everyone will feel it. And, as the plugs get hotter (under load), that same intermittent blast starts coming in greater frequency. Its like a huge fuel cut of some sort. I've seen it on a few cars and all three of them had catastrophic engine failures (massively chunked apex seals and gouges all over the rotor housings).
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10-07-10, 09:47 AM
#54
BDC Motorsports
Yep. All of those R6725 are resistor plugs. The 'R' in the part number is the giveaway and follows the same standard all NGK plug part numbers have - R6725105, BUR9EQ, etc.
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10-07-10, 09:49 AM
#55
FWIW, I've been running stock plugs (7's and 9's) for a year in my car.
up to 20psi, t04-R, over 400whp. Still ticking along just fine, runs 120mph in the 1/4.
I'm not saying this is ideal, or that running colder plugs is wrong, but I'd say its a definite indication that a well tuned, well sorted setup with no other issues will not simply blow up because it has warmer plugs in the holes.....or at least thats the indication sub 500whp.
up to 20psi, t04-R, over 400whp. Still ticking along just fine, runs 120mph in the 1/4.
I'm not saying this is ideal, or that running colder plugs is wrong, but I'd say its a definite indication that a well tuned, well sorted setup with no other issues will not simply blow up because it has warmer plugs in the holes.....or at least thats the indication sub 500whp.
10-07-10, 12:40 PM
#56
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
My FD project will have a single though, and it's not putting words into practice by any stretch of the imagination. The power numbers this car was putting out was ridiculously low for the turbo and boost being run - sorry - but this was bad tuning or a shitty built engine - sorry again but that's what I'm hearing here. 6* timing man, lets see some other 22psi maps that make decent power. Still waiting on that. I'd like to see some EGT and L logs as well.
Last edited by mar3; 10-07-10 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Killed flaming
10-07-10, 12:46 PM
#57
in before the lock/mod edit
anyway, there's a chance that the OP's engine is just one of the many who have had mysterious electrical noise etc blow up their engine on an older Haltech. I don't know about the latest generation (Platinum Sport), but it's well known that the older Haltechs seem to flake out like this more than a factory ECU or say a Power FC.
anyway, there's a chance that the OP's engine is just one of the many who have had mysterious electrical noise etc blow up their engine on an older Haltech. I don't know about the latest generation (Platinum Sport), but it's well known that the older Haltechs seem to flake out like this more than a factory ECU or say a Power FC.
10-07-10, 12:46 PM
#58
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
There is only one style of LS1 coils. The ones that MoTeC sells are the D580's, they suck. I witnessed them wet foul on a running idleing engine. They are miserable coils. Get rid of them.
Not to mention that ANYONE that tells you 6ms of dwell on them is fine is out of their beyond pee sized brain. Talk to someone who knows the coils and get real dwell times... ****, I'll give you my old dwell table from when I WAS running them. I hated those coils.
Not to mention if you're running them with alot of boost and meth, that could be one ---ONE--- of the underlying causes of the failure. Get a real coil or a CDI system.
There's so much nutswinging going on from keyboard mechanics I feel like I'm wasting my time here.
Not to mention that ANYONE that tells you 6ms of dwell on them is fine is out of their beyond pee sized brain. Talk to someone who knows the coils and get real dwell times... ****, I'll give you my old dwell table from when I WAS running them. I hated those coils.
Not to mention if you're running them with alot of boost and meth, that could be one ---ONE--- of the underlying causes of the failure. Get a real coil or a CDI system.
There's so much nutswinging going on from keyboard mechanics I feel like I'm wasting my time here.
10-07-10, 12:49 PM
#59
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Another good point.... while it's not been admited by anyone in Haltech that I'm aware of, it's pretty well known that Haltech has a rep for that kind of crap.
To be completely honest, I really don't know where the best place to mount them would be. I would assume that would be the best place but I am not the right person to ask that question, sorry... I just don't know on an n/a but I would assume that's it.
To be completely honest, I really don't know where the best place to mount them would be. I would assume that would be the best place but I am not the right person to ask that question, sorry... I just don't know on an n/a but I would assume that's it.
10-07-10, 02:45 PM
#60
There are 3 versions of the LS coils- LS1, LS2 and truck coils. The truck coils with heatsink being the best power output wise. I ran 5ms of dwell for over a year on these coils without issue (direct fire of course). I have also seen these coils run 100% DC for 15 minutes (almost ready to melt) but still worked. While hot they do have an internal current and dwell limiter which hits around ~5,6ms point.
10-07-10, 02:52 PM
#61
Wow, a lot of people blowing motors this time of the year, which Lance had told me would happen on the phone. FWIW, I'm running 9's all the way around, 23 psi on a 500R with water/meth injection...zero problems. 
OP, sorry if I missed it, but what kind of condition is your wiring harness in?
How is the wiring to your injectors?
FWIW, I'm running 9's all the way around, 23 psi on a 500R with water/meth injection...zero problems. OP, sorry if I missed it, but what kind of condition is your wiring harness in?
How is the wiring to your injectors?
10-07-10, 03:02 PM
#62
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
There are 3 versions of the LS coils- LS1, LS2 and truck coils. The truck coils with heatsink being the best power output wise. I ran 5ms of dwell for over a year on these coils without issue (direct fire of course). I have also seen these coils run 100% DC for 15 minutes (almost ready to melt) but still worked. While hot they do have an internal current and dwell limiter which hits around ~5,6ms point.
There is also an LS7 coil as well which I hear second hand through a GM engineer puts the LS2 truck coils to shame. I have no actual data though, but when I went looking for a replacement set I was told to go this route. I declined and went for some Bosch Motorsport coils instead. My car will start and idle well with 10 volts of battery power. The LS coils could barely start the car with 11.5 volts which of course dips when cranking.
10-07-10, 03:21 PM
#63
I did it for two reasons. I took a plug reading with stock 9's (new plugs, power pass, shutdown with no idle) and another with stock 7's and 9's. The stock 7's looked like a more even burn, and I didn't get any increase in knock......so I decided **** let's try it. Its *mostly* street driven, so the better idle characteristics were something I liked.
Two, the engine's been together (to me given my history with HELLtech's) for a long time. Two seasons at this power and nearly 30,000kms. If it blew I wouldn't have been disappointed so I figured I'd see what happened long term.
I'm not recommending anyone do it, all I'm saying is if you remove all the variables that could have caused his failure - at that power - the plugs alone would be very unlikely to blow the engine. If heat range alone could kill apex seals, I would have or should have blown my engine hundreds of times over the last 8 months.
10-07-10, 03:52 PM
#64
all I'm saying is if you remove all the variables that could have caused his failure - at that power - the plugs alone would be very unlikely to blow the engine. If heat range alone could kill apex seals, I would have or should have blown my engine hundreds of times over the last 8 months.
10-07-10, 04:33 PM
#65
I would like to make one more suggestion for you mate. I have found with the haltech 02 sensors and many of the cheaper 02 sensor setups read around .3-.5 points richer on the richer end of the scale of afr where as when your cruising are dead on the money.
It is possible that it was alot leaner then the afr sensor is showing. I still think the plugs are your problem and your ecu shutting down may have been from the knock it self. You need to fix the motor. Get it on the dyno. Make sure it dosnt overboost on the dyno as your boost curve dosnt look good, looks like the gate opens at 22psi and the car creeps up to 27psi which means the gate or manifold or both are not working correctly.
If your afrs are actually 11.3 then your fuel mixture is not your problem even at 27psi. Get your 11.5 plugs and start again. You will get alot of theories on here but most of the advice you will get is from people that do not have experience with a engine at your power level.
To say that you can run 17 degrees or even 22 degrees of timing on a 250rwhp engine compared to 500rwhp engine is not a sound theory and is not a fair comparison. The level of knock in the 500rwhp engine will be exponentially higher.
I have tuned countless cars ranging from 400rwhp to over 800rwhp and they do not need large amounts of timing to make good power. My own pump fuel car has 2-3 degrees advance and makes 700rwhp+ on a dyno dynamics dyno.
Hope you decide to listen to at least some of what i have to say.
It is possible that it was alot leaner then the afr sensor is showing. I still think the plugs are your problem and your ecu shutting down may have been from the knock it self. You need to fix the motor. Get it on the dyno. Make sure it dosnt overboost on the dyno as your boost curve dosnt look good, looks like the gate opens at 22psi and the car creeps up to 27psi which means the gate or manifold or both are not working correctly.
If your afrs are actually 11.3 then your fuel mixture is not your problem even at 27psi. Get your 11.5 plugs and start again. You will get alot of theories on here but most of the advice you will get is from people that do not have experience with a engine at your power level.
To say that you can run 17 degrees or even 22 degrees of timing on a 250rwhp engine compared to 500rwhp engine is not a sound theory and is not a fair comparison. The level of knock in the 500rwhp engine will be exponentially higher.
I have tuned countless cars ranging from 400rwhp to over 800rwhp and they do not need large amounts of timing to make good power. My own pump fuel car has 2-3 degrees advance and makes 700rwhp+ on a dyno dynamics dyno.
Hope you decide to listen to at least some of what i have to say.
10-07-10, 04:52 PM
#66
BDC Motorsports
I would like to make one more suggestion for you mate. I have found with the haltech 02 sensors and many of the cheaper 02 sensor setups read around .3-.5 points richer on the richer end of the scale of afr where as when your cruising are dead on the money.
It is possible that it was alot leaner then the afr sensor is showing. I still think the plugs are your problem and your ecu shutting down may have been from the knock it self. You need to fix the motor. Get it on the dyno. Make sure it dosnt overboost on the dyno as your boost curve dosnt look good, looks like the gate opens at 22psi and the car creeps up to 27psi which means the gate or manifold or both are not working correctly.
It is possible that it was alot leaner then the afr sensor is showing. I still think the plugs are your problem and your ecu shutting down may have been from the knock it self. You need to fix the motor. Get it on the dyno. Make sure it dosnt overboost on the dyno as your boost curve dosnt look good, looks like the gate opens at 22psi and the car creeps up to 27psi which means the gate or manifold or both are not working correctly.
If your afrs are actually 11.3 then your fuel mixture is not your problem even at 27psi. Get your 11.5 plugs and start again. You will get alot of theories on here but most of the advice you will get is from people that do not have experience with a engine at your power level.
To say that you can run 17 degrees or even 22 degrees of timing on a 250rwhp engine compared to 500rwhp engine is not a sound theory and is not a fair comparison. The level of knock in the 500rwhp engine will be exponentially higher.
I have tuned countless cars ranging from 400rwhp to over 800rwhp and they do not need large amounts of timing to make good power. My own pump fuel car has 2-3 degrees advance and makes 700rwhp+ on a dyno dynamics dyno.
I have tuned countless cars ranging from 400rwhp to over 800rwhp and they do not need large amounts of timing to make good power. My own pump fuel car has 2-3 degrees advance and makes 700rwhp+ on a dyno dynamics dyno.
Hope you decide to listen to at least some of what i have to say.
10-07-10, 07:20 PM
#67
Tuning with EGT is new to me, and a search revealed that there seems to be no general consensus as to what the target EGT should be. How would I lower EGTs? I know adding fuel will lower them, but 11.3 afr doesn't seem lean at all compared to what others are doing. What about timing?
What about running CHT along with EGT so you can fine tune each rotor
http://tscsensors.com/chtws0722p0kssnchts.html
Last edited by 87GTR; 10-07-10 at 07:36 PM.
10-07-10, 08:42 PM
#68
Wow, a lot of people blowing motors this time of the year, which Lance had told me would happen on the phone. FWIW, I'm running 9's all the way around, 23 psi on a 500R with water/meth injection...zero problems.
OP, sorry if I missed it, but what kind of condition is your wiring harness in? How is the wiring to your injectors?
FWIW, I'm running 9's all the way around, 23 psi on a 500R with water/meth injection...zero problems. OP, sorry if I missed it, but what kind of condition is your wiring harness in?
How is the wiring to your injectors?
10-07-10, 09:47 PM
#70
WOW I'm running LS1's! You know I'm actually witnessing this 1st hand with my engine on the test stand. Anytime my battery gets a little weak, I can't crank my engine for ****. I'm running a Miata battery in the rear bin. It cranks just fine when charged but doesn't have much reserve. As soon as it gets a little weak, the engine never even acts like it wants to start. I guess these coils really need to higher voltage to work well. I also can't hardly fire the engine up with 9's in the leading unless I have a full charge. I may have to do something else because I don't want to get stranded all the damn time. Your set up sounds nice (being able to crank on a weak battery) That's added peace of mind!
10-07-10, 09:59 PM
#71
I'm not recommending anyone do it, all I'm saying is if you remove all the variables that could have caused his failure - at that power - the plugs alone would be very unlikely to blow the engine. If heat range alone could kill apex seals, I would have or should have blown my engine hundreds of times over the last 8 months.
Yea but look he blew the engine at 27psi with a GT42 on a bridge port. He had to be making well over 450rwhp when it blew (especially with cooler temps). I think he was closer to 600rwhp. A frined of mine hit 600rwhp with the same size turbo at 32psi and he was only a street port. I don't think 9's would work well at that level.
10-07-10, 11:07 PM
#73
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Don't believe me, and I bet there are a lot of people here who don't.. so check out MoTeC's manual.
Terminal Crimping
Use the correct crimping tool for each type of terminal. Do a pull test on a
sample wire and terminal to verify that the crimp is sound. In theory the wire
should break before the wire pulls out of the crimp.
Most crimp tools are only designed for a certain range of wire sizes so be
sure to test the crimp with the particular wire size being used.
sample wire and terminal to verify that the crimp is sound. In theory the wire
should break before the wire pulls out of the crimp.
Most crimp tools are only designed for a certain range of wire sizes so be
sure to test the crimp with the particular wire size being used.
Soldering the terminal is a last resort if the correct crimping tool is not
available. Soldering will cause a stress point where the solder wicks up the
wire which is likely to fracture unless all movement is avoided. Solder flux can
also cause corrosion and may affect the contacts.
available. Soldering will cause a stress point where the solder wicks up the
wire which is likely to fracture unless all movement is avoided. Solder flux can
Strait from the MoTeC manual. You can find it here
http://www.motec.com.au/downloads/downloadmanuals/
M800 manual, page 24-25.
Ask yourself who you're listening too - proffesionals, or internet keyboard mechanics who are looking for attention and acceptance.
10-07-10, 11:22 PM
#74
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Yea but look he blew the engine at 27psi with a GT42 on a bridge port. He had to be making well over 450rwhp when it blew (especially with cooler temps). I think he was closer to 600rwhp. A frined of mine hit 600rwhp with the same size turbo at 32psi and he was only a street port. I don't think 9's would work well at that level.
WOW I'm running LS1's! You know I'm actually witnessing this 1st hand with my engine on the test stand. Anytime my battery gets a little weak, I can't crank my engine for ****. I'm running a Miata battery in the rear bin. It cranks just fine when charged but doesn't have much reserve. As soon as it gets a little weak, the engine never even acts like it wants to start. I guess these coils really need to higher voltage to work well. I also can't hardly fire the engine up with 9's in the leading unless I have a full charge. I may have to do something else because I don't want to get stranded all the damn time. Your set up sounds nice (being able to crank on a weak battery) That's added peace of mind!
The best was on a rebuilt engine I had built. Put it in and with a fully charged battery and the battery charger running (re-wound alternator that won't turn on unless you rev past 3k which I'm obviously NOT going to do on first start-up) sat there and read a book while the thing ran for 1/2 hr.... as I do with all my rebuilds. First heat cycle is nothing by idle for 30 mins keeping a careful eye on temps/pressures. Well, about 10 minutes into the girl running like a top; all of a sudden she dropped down to one rotor. In a panic I shut the engine down and went through the motions. BRAND new plugs and they wet fouled the rear L & T and the front T. Those coils are nothing special and miserable for a rotary application.
If you're serious about wanting a better set of coils, PM me and I'll let you on a little secret. Seeing as how most of my knowledge just gets shunned lately, I'm really not feeling the need to share this little gem of information with the masses.
10-08-10, 02:23 AM
#75
I have also tuned some high hp rotary engines and some of them are tuned right around 6 degrees of timing..
There's many factors that determines how much timing is really necessary but to say 6 degrees is not enough show's your inexperience of high powered rotary's..
Last edited by Zero R; 10-08-10 at 06:32 PM. Reason: just helping out...