1ROTOR2NV

In my quest searching for the ultimate turbo, I have stumbled across the "billet turbos". It appears to have a couple different definitions. Precision turbo makes a "billet turbo" with a cnc'd compressor wheel, which is according to them lighter stronger, spools quicker and is better in every way to a cast wheel.

Billet Turbo (mr turbo) almost has the oppisite, the wheel is cast but the bearings are of a different design, no cage , different bearings. They claim theres' spools quicker and the bigger turbos respond like smaller turbos. I am confused, as far as i can see one company has a billet wheel, one has different space age bearings and some other goodies, but uses a cast wheel.

So i decide to check in with garett and see what they have to say if anything, well, they made a cnc wheel for a couple of their turbos, did some tests and found almost no numerical gains, check it out.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob..._Machined.html

The other problem is there are tonnes of testimonials for each design, claiming the same results, whats the deal, anyone have some insight here???

crispeed

I've made big power on other platforms with the billet Precision turbos. With the 6262 turbo I've made 780whp. The latest offering from Precision would be the 6765 billet turbo. The 6765 is well sized for a broad operation range on rotary applications.

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

The key to making power is the wheel aerodynamics. The material isnt a big factor, but it helps. The CNC machined blades allow less material on each blade, and that equates to a higher mass flow rate. There are other reasons the billet wheels are superior, but its too much to explain.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Would it help spool?

thewird

RXHEAVEN_WA

Dude, its called "billet" cause they mollest a piece of Aluminium to make the center cartridge. All else is ripped off parts from China and USA (front covers, wheels etc etc)

The ball bearing a silicone nitride *****, freely available from Koyo and NSK in japan.

The early ones of these "billet" turbos were a total ******* abortion with multiple failures mainly due to water leaks into the oil section, I also have seen the bearing system come loose and create play.

There is nothing special about these things. You are better off sticking with an ACTUAL Turbo manufacturer rather than a bits n pieces parts special type hobby business

use Garrett or any one of the other OEM first hand manufacturers. All the others are a time bomb waiting to go off not worth reading most of their web trash to be brutally blunt about it.

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

So far off base its funny. You really dont know what you are talking about.

Its called a billet turbo because the compressor wheel is CNC machined from biilet aluminum. Precision compressor covers and turbine housings are made in the US, as are the wheels. Most US turbo companies use the same foundry(Walcott) to have housings made. The cartridges are standard journal or ball bearing units.

Precision is also not a "hobby business". They are a full on turbo manufacturer and have been for quite some time. Their turbos are used by MANY race teams around the world, even Australia.

RoTaRyBoYz

Pete, is that you???

Boy you Aussies really that clueless??

They're not refering to this BS Australian brand http://www.billetturbochargers.com/About_Billet.ews

This is what they are talking about!!

RXHEAVEN_WA

ok I thought WTF are you ***** on to be talking about our Aussie trash billet ****

1ROTOR2NV

So with reference to the garett link i posted at the start, is there other performance that graph isnt showing, or are they manipulating. Because, from the sounds of it they had no luck at all with the billet compressor wheel. Am I to ignore this testimony from one of the big turbo manufacturers ?? Believe me I want nothing more than to buy one of these, I just want to know why garett is talking it down so bad.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Garretts turbo's are the same aero, but machined to save money, hence no real gain. Precision has better aero on the wheel hence the gain. Some real good performers are the 62mm, 67mm, and the 76mm billets, they can be mixed and matched a bit also depends on how friendly you can get with them. ie they don't like putting their billet stuff on anything but their turbines but there are ways around that As crispeed said they make very nice power, but you pay for it. People complain Garretts BB units are pricey Precisions BB Billet units are even more pricey.

zinx

iTrader: (3)

I think these pics speak for Precision Turbo's quality:



6.97@212 Super Street record


1st Single Turbo 10.5 Car in the 6's


edit: Many more on their website: http://www.precisionturbo.net/

phunk

i recently picked up a pair of Precision billet 62/65s for my 350z's standing mile build.

i did so because the results that sound performance had with these turbos on their z... going from the precision 67 (non billet, it wasnt out yet) to these turbos which are SMALLER they of course spooled faster but even gained significant power on the top end.

crispeed

SP made 1150whp at 32psi with twin 6262's.
I just swapped out a GT4202 for the Precision billet 76mm GT42. Going to the dyno to see what this turbo can do at 45psi!

crispeed

That pic looks very familar. Even the background!

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

I think they need to revise the exhaust if they gained that much by removing it. Maybe do a dual 3" straight through.

Im very interested to see how it turns out! When are you going to dyno it?

crispeed

Should be on the dyno in a couple of hours. It's a built RB26 with a glide. It made 750whp at 31psi with the old turbo.

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

In the 240?

crispeed

It's actually a RHD S15 Silivia.

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

Havent seen that one yet. How long have you guys had that one?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

(red is a Garrett billet wheel)

The Garrett study is the only one here that seems to be 100% comparing apples-to-apples if you will. Precision would have to do side-by-side tests of two turbos with 100% same design (except for the compressor wheel manufacturing process) and then demonstrate the results. The Garrett article seems to have the most "scientific" information here in the sense that they have done a controlled experiment and documented the small change in efficiency range through an actual compressor map we can all look at.

like for instance, 6262 : 62-1 (what other 62 mm wheels are there?) compressor wheel with T3 stage 5 turbine wheel (76 trim 62mm exducer)? of course it's going to spool quickly when every other 62-1 runs a (76 trim 64 mm exducer) T4 P trim !



somebody explain to me why this wouldn't be just a 62-1 (or something close to that I'm not thinking of) hybrid, which has a compressor wheel that can still push over 60 lb/min if maxed out. We have all seen that T3 hotsides can still make good topend power, perhaps at the expense of some backpressure in a single turbo application. There are lots of people here making impressive numbers on T3 GT35R's.

Those stage 5 T3 turbine wheels on the billet 6262 (71mm total diameter) I think are bigger than the GT35R wheel, which the Garrett site is listing as 68mm. So what is that other than just a big hybrid turbo? And there's nothing wrong with a big hybrid turbo. Hybrids are a proven design strategy for a lot of applications--but an oldschool hybrid turbo is not a miracle of manufacturing like these billet turbos claim to be.

To sum up, I'm not seeing these billet turbos can't make good power or can't spool well. I'm just not convinced that their power and responsiveness is due solely to the manufacturing process of the compressor wheel. In the case of the 6262, all I see so far, and somebody please correct me with reputable sources, is first a known high flowing compressor wheel, probably the 62-1. Then there's a relatively large (stage 5 T3) turbine wheel in a relatively small turbine housing (T3 hybrid as opposed to full T4). That combination of housings and wheels seems like it would make the most difference, which agrees with what the Garrett article says. I tell you, the more I look at these catalogs the more skeptical I become about the marketing of turbos.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

The only thing I think the garrett demonstration doesn't show is the benefit CNC'd billet wheels offer, the ability to run less material on the blades. I'm pretty sure they replicated the exact same wheel, size for size and all, and it's pretty clear that the manufacturing process doesn't make much of a difference, but if you took the same size, trim, etc. wheel, but machined it as thin as a fully engineered billet wheel, you may have seen some improvement. I like the idea, it seems that being CNC'ed it would allow the air to flow more smoothly through the wheel.

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

We already explained this one, but I will explain with more details.

The 6262 does not use a 62-1 compressor or a T3 stage 5 turbine. Dimensions are the same for the turbine, but its an updated design from Precision. Same goes for the 6265, you dont get a P trim but a wheel of the same dimensions with a new design. You can however get these in the old turbos, like the 6152, 6776, etc...

Now for the compressors. The Precision billet compressors have new aerodynamic designs to make them more efficient and higher flowing. They are not the same old design simply machined from billet aluminum. Its all about the design, not the manufacturing process. They chose to machine them because its far easier, quicker, and less costly to produce small volumes having them CNC'd rather than cast.

1ROTOR2NV

So if i understand you correctly and from what i have heard Precisions' wheels are not just billet but the specs related to the compressor wheels themselves are different, so the term "Billet Turbo" , also means custom compressor specs, this sound correct?
Oh and just to confirm we have all agreed the Mr Turbo Billet turbo nitride bearing turbos are just a gimick, no better than a regular BB turbo?

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

Yep, billet refers to the manufacturing process, but the billet compressors also have new aerodynamic designs.

Garrett compared identical wheel designs, both cast and billet. Its not the case with Precision.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Until I get more details, to me it's like Schick coming out with the "quattro" razors to compete with the Gillette Mach 3 razors.

I'm not trying to be an *** here, and I know there are no Precision turbo reps on this forum. I'd just like to consider myself an ordinary enthusiast with limited dollars and a lot of options, who needs to ask hard questions about this product.

The question still remains in my mind: what exactly am I getting when I buy these billet turbos? Garrett does a test and discovers that, all other things held equal, the billet manufacturing process has negligible effect on performance and is mostly a cost saver. None of the proponents of the billet turbos have refuted this point so far (again, when all other things are held equal). Yet the 6262 for example is marketed as a "billet turbo." This raises a red flag in my mind, not because I am a know-it-all internet troll (or come across that way sometimes), but because there is so much marketing hype in this industry.

What I hear from the fans of the billet turbos is essentially this: "yes, they are marketed based on the manufacturing process [billet turbos], which we have acknowledged doesn't directly do a whole lot by itself for performance. But the true advantage of this product is in the aerodynamic properties of the wheels." I would like more details on this. The billet wheels are suspiciously close to long existing designs in terms of their basic measurements (62-1 compressor, stage 5 turbine as I've said), and I think that justifiably increases my skepticism without some more specific information to clarify the differences between the designs.

Who would have details or side-by-side pics comparing a traditional cast Garrett 62mm wheel (62-1 or whatever) and the new Precision billet ones? How are the precision wheels shaped differently? Are there fewer blades or something? What am I getting for my money besides some well-meaning testimonials from respected people, something I can get for a lot of products?

I still feel like nobody has explained to my specifically why the 6262 isn't just a similarly priced, ball bearing GT35R competitor with bigger compressor and turbine wheels. The GT35R and 6262 are in the same marketing segment/price point, they have the same basic housing dimensions (T3 hotside with T04S style compressor cover). They have the same basic bearing configuration (ball bearing), but the 6262 has bigger wheels and an as-yet insufficiently explained aerodynamic advantage. So it's still Quattro razors vs. Mach 3 razors to me: same basic design, one product just has a little bit more.