Falco

Can anyone with the Apex'i single turbo comment on reliability, performance and cost to get it installed?

I like the look of the kit, but I have heard the Apex wastegate stinks and that I should go with an HKS one.
in it's place.

Thanks,

Falco

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

The Apex'i is a great kit! The best Street kit IMO, but yes the wastegate sucks, and it doesn't come with a BOV. That add's extra cost on top of the high cost of this kit. You may want to look into the XS T04E kit whick offers close to the same numbers and spool up, but with a cheaper price and a more complete kit.
Reliability wise the IHI Ballbearing turbo is one tough cookie, it may out last you and your car, but if you throw an Apex'i seal at it you may be SOL. To my knowladge nobody in the states rebuilds these (cost lots of money too) and the best place to get it looked at may be TEC. You could try contacting IHI US and asking them about it.

1FooknTiteFD

I have actually heard that ballbearing turbos are stronger than standard turbos and that they can take more compressor surge too. I also heard that the apex'i wastegate was made by the same manufacturer as tial. The only person I know of who has had wastegate failure is maxcooper, but Ihave not heard anywhere else it could have failed.

The only downside as someone previously mentioned is that in the event an apex seal goes through the turbine you need to get a new kit.

I called tony and my apex'i kit will be arriving this week, I am planning on road racing the car with a greddy 3 row IC, I will keep everyone updated on installs and the efficiency of the turbo on the track..

Wade

iTrader: (1)

I would never recommend the Apex'i kit for anyone in the US for the simple reason that it's tough, if not impossible, to get that turbo rebuilt in the states. You may think it's a fat chance, but in reality the chances are greater that you will damage your turbo sooner than later. Why add insult to injury by having to buy another turbo or kit when you could get another turbo rebuilt?

Wade

enuttage

I have the A'Pexi kit, installed (properly) by RP. Had a conversation with Chris voicing my concerns about this very thing. IIRC, he said he's never seen one come back with a problem. I'm assuming he's discounting all the folks who got trigger happy with their laptop or Commander and leaned it out until they blew a seal through the unit. I wouldn't count those either.

In other words, IMO, the RX6 is a great kit if you either know how to tune (I mean really know) or are having it tuned professionally. If you're a DIY kinda guy, I'd recommend a rebuildable also.

-E

Cheuk in Seoul

I have to agree. If your engine is setup correctly and you don't throw a seal through it, it's a fine street setup.

The RX6 series seem to be very tough. There is a handful of shops in Korea using RX6's sized for drag racing 2.0L Hyundais. They have been running these things with NO wastegate pushing 30-45 psi and 680 wheel hp for a couple of years without a single failure. That is of the turbo ... lots of engine and head rebuilds.

weaklink

you don't have to get a whole new kit, you can just get a new turbo. It cost $1850 which is close to what a modded rebuild of the stock twins would be, plus, HEY, it's a new turbo.

Wade

iTrader: (1)

Get real guys, no matter how good your tuning, it is not uncommon for these engines to blow every 20k miles if driven hard and making lots of power. Even with nothing "wrong."

Those of you with the RX6 kit who haven't blown your engine yet, good for you. If you are in the US (Cheuk, the availability of rebuild parts may be a non-issue for you anyway), when it does blow, if you damage your turbo you won't be happy with the situation you find yourself in.

Instead of spending a couple hundred getting your turbo rebuilt you will be buying a new kit or turbo for about $2000-3500. This is just not a chance I would want to take.

So the turbo is easily available by itself, who sells it like this (I've never seen it advertised)?

It doesn't seem worth the extra thousands of dollars for a replacement when there are comparable turbos that are more available/rebuildable. If you have money to burn or you have access to a cheap rebuild of the RX6 then it's a different story completely.

If people choose to go with this turbo despite the fact that a rebuild is likely at some point and the cost of replacement is ridiculously high, then fine, that's their choice. I'm just stating a fact that absolutely knocks this turbo out of the running for me and a lot of other people.

Wade

enuttage

It's not that I doubt your integrity Wade, but gimme some examples of folks who have blown their engine with an RX6 (and ruined it) that have had their cars professionally tuned. If it isn't "uncommon" then that makes it "common" for cars to go at 20K miles.

If my engine blows at 20K then either my rebuilder or my tuner is gonna get a f'n earful. I specifically told both of them I wanted a safe, reliable (to me this is another 70-80K) car. And this is what they told me I'd probably get. That is 70-80K.

I know Max blew his because of Apex'i's not-so-reliable wastegate. I have a much more bulletproof WG, so again, if I go at 20K after having things professionally tuned, I'm gonna be pissed.

I hold to my remarks, which were, if you're a DIY guy I agree you should consider another turbo. If you're having it professionally tuned for the street by a reliable tuner, I don't see a problem, nor a record of failure. Your "statement of fact" needs some quantifiables to back it up.

I may be proven completely wrong, but I trust my tuner (his reputation preceeds him well) and I don't want people who want a reliable street car to think the RX6 shouldn't be an option.

-E

VELCRO SHOES

2 years ago I blew my motor Hard Core,all three apex seals exploded and it didnt damage my old Apex Turbo...that was one tough sucker.I've also heard you dont even need to run a BOV on it,thats how strong the turbo is.

weaklink

Get real, its $1850 at the rx7 store. It'll cost you that much to rebuild one.

Wade

iTrader: (1)

I won't name any names, I might **** some people off. Email me privately if you must know.

Example #1, blew two engines within a year of installing apex'i kit. I'm not sure I'd call it professionally tuned. Apparently didn't damage the turbo.

Example #2, blew engine shortly after Apex'i single install. Car was professionally tuned AFAIK (had spent time on dyno and wideband). It is possible it hadn't been tuned since the turbo install, I could find out. Turbo was damaged, he bought a new kit with plans to get the broken turbo fixed eventually when parts were available (and resell the entire kit).

Example #3, Max Cooper, had a wastegate failure apparently, also apparently didn't damage the turbo. Though his was damaged previously, but got away with a turbine clipping as a fix. Was tuned by XS, the engine was all new and had < 15k miles. Talk to Max to get details, I may have something wrong here (going from memory).

Example #4, blew engine within months of installing T78, supposedly the wastegate failed. Also is getting the hot side of the turbo rebuilt. I believe the entire setup has less than one year on it. I believe this setup was professionally tuned as well, someone on this forum probably knows who I am talking about and could chime in.

I know there are others with better experiences, I just happen not to know any. I have a few friends who are in the process of switching, hopefully they will have better results than the others.

Quote:

If my engine blows at 20K then either my rebuilder or my tuner is gonna get a f'n earful. I specifically told both of them I wanted a safe, reliable (to me this is another 70-80K) car. And this is what they told me I'd probably get. That is 70-80K.

Start practicing your speech. It isn't going to reverse the damage to your engine.

I will admit, it is possible to go far beyond 20k miles. When I say 20k miles I'm talking about people whos cars make 350rwhp and they drive them hard. Not a weekend warrior that gets on the boost for a few seconds at a time.

Quote:

I know Max blew his because of Apex'i's not-so-reliable wastegate. I have a much more bulletproof WG, so again, if I go at 20K after having things professionally tuned, I'm gonna be pissed.

Learn from others mistakes and install a popoff while you are at it.

Quote:

I hold to my remarks, which were, if you're a DIY guy I agree you should consider another turbo. If you're having it professionally tuned for the street by a reliable tuner, I don't see a problem, nor a record of failure. Your "statement of fact" needs some quantifiables to back it up.

Well, it isn't a fact that the Apex'i is a bad turbo, that's just an opinion of mine and it obviously isn't shared by many of you. It's just a hard one to repair, failures are high with cars at this level of modification, therefore I'd recommend a cheaper and easier turbo to repair.

Quote:

I may be proven completely wrong, but I trust my tuner (his reputation preceeds him well) and I don't want people who want a reliable street car to think the RX6 shouldn't be an option.

-E

It certainly IS an option. Just, in my opinion, a very bad one.

Wade

maxcooper

One the negative side, the wastegate is not reliable for track use. Mine sticks and I have heard from another RX-7 road racer that has had two of them fail in the same way before he switched to a different wastegate. The A'PEXi wastegate seems to work fine for the occasional street romp, but if you are on the track, or run it under boost for a long time on the street, the wastegate starts to stick. You may never experience this if you don't go to the track or don't go ape **** on the street.

I don't know who makes the A'PEXi wastegate, but I think it is extremely unlikely that it is the same company that makes TiAL (doesn't TiAL make their own stuff?). They do not have any common parts and the basic construction and materials are pretty different. The A'PEXi wastegate is much more similar to the HKS units, but it only takes one component to make it stick. HKS wastegates have a very good reputation for reliability, but my experince with the A'PEXi unit is that it is not reliable under heavy use with this kit.

You cannot get the RX6 rebuilt in the U.S. I called a lot of turbo shops and they all told me the same thing: IHI will not send parts fro that turbo to U.S. service centers. Even shops that are listed as IHI service centers on the IHI web site cannot get parts for that turbo if they are in the U.S. TEC was able to trim my turbine wheel. They did a great job and I would feel very good about dealing with them again, but they cannot do a full rebuild of the unit.

On the plus side, I think the RX6 turbo will take all the abuse you can dish out as long as you don't throw metal parts at the wheels. I haven't heard of anyone having the turbo fail on its own or have oil problems. With the exception of the wastegate, my kit seems to be holding up quite well after 22,000 miles.

I don't think it is impossible to build a reliable single turbo car, but it is common to blow an engine or two getting your setup sorted out. I don't want anyone reading this thread to get the impression that it is just the A'PEXi kit that is likely to blow your engine. Any single turbo conversion has that danger. And unless you have a shop nearby that has done a lot of conversions, don't expect them to be able to build you a reliable beast the first time out. It has never been my experience that you can just bolt a bunch of stuff on and it will all work perfectly for 100,000 miles. It takes a fair amount of time, money, and effort to get the car sorted out and working as you want it to. With a change as major as a single turbo conversion, a engine rebuild seems to be a relatively common part of that process. Ultimately, I think you an make a reliable single turbo car and that the RX6 is a good turbo to select for that goal (since the turbo itself has a great reputation for reliability) but there will be an expensive, unreliable period on the path to that goal.

That said, I have not gotten a rebuild yet because my car still runs well enough to drive and it doesn't seem to be getting any worse. In fact, I am somewhat in doubt that I have a blown seal, but rather it might just be that I put some big dents in my rotor faces again or something. Since I figure I need a rebuild anyway, I have been quite brave with the boost lately. For a while I had my boost controller plumbed wrong (added after I damaged the engine) and it was boosting up over 20 psi before I let off the gas. I was not getting any detonation so I kept playing, and it was fun. My maps at the 17.2 psi stock MAP sensor limit must be really rich -- I wasn't boosting that high on the dyno, so they weren't tuned by XS in that range. I have confirmed that my MAP sensor never reads above 1.15 no matter how high the boost goes. Lately I have been overboosting a bit as I play with the boost controller and everything seems fine. I have gotten no loud, audible detonation and the car just seems to run fast and hard with no complaints from the engine or turbo system (other than the occasional wastegate sticking problem). I am now considering running 17 psi all the time when I get the engine freshened. It sure is fun, but it isn't cheap to play with single turbos.

-Max