haltechrx7

What is the scoop on this?
I live in Phoenix - It's hot here.
I'm about to install a turbo and I'm wondering about which intercooler I will use.

Do I really want an intercooler in front of my A/C Condensor which is in front of the radiator??

It seems an Air Water intercooler might be a better choice. I can mount it's "radiator" by the driving light opening in the Air-Dam.
If I can mount the Air-Water intercooler anywhere - the air path can be much shorter.

Any thoughts on this?

I've been looking at intercoolers lately and most of them do not have performance charts with pressure drop information.

Any leads on "Known Very Good Intercoolers"??

Steve C
82 RX-7
72 914

maxcooper

What are you going to use the car for?

An air-to-water IC with a small heat exchanger will be limited by the heat rejection rate of the small heat exchanger if you stay on boost for a long time (road race, long highway run).

-Max

BoostedRex

I would like to know more about that setup as well. I prefer V-mount IC's, but it's always nice to know what else is out there? Have you thought about fabbing up a V-mount setup for yourself? It's really not that much work. I am far from the best fabricator out there and I made my own kit. Used a spearco IC core, Griffin aluminum rad, and a Black Magic e-fan. Just my .02 though.

On a different note, I was just in Phoenix all last week. I wish I could've had a chance to meet you and see your '82. I'll be back down there later this year. Maybe we can meet up while I'm down there.

Zach

13btnos

iTrader: (1)

Your probably looking for a setup like this one http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm it's the barrel cooler which is a liquid to air and uses an aluminum radiator with an e-fan to cool the water. I haven't seen anyone using it with the radiator but I've seen plenty of dragracers using those barrel coolers at the track. Thing is they have a separate tank and run ice water through it. Would be interesting to see how it works with the radiator on the streets. Keep us updated if you decide to take this route looks very interesting.

APEXL8T

well I wont post much on this . But there are three of us here in hot & humid Louisiana that are doing this with great results. Concept is being utilized by , Ford and several Euro manufactuerers. I have posted practical application experience along with another member but have had theorist say pooy. Overall temps are reduced and AC is fine no issues. Mark57 has pics of his setup. I only have the open hood shot with inclosed I/C and water tank.

Just read this by accident:

Rotarygod,

I've been reading your post.. Kudos on the info you been handing out and uber cool intake manifold you made. I personally think its a plausable horse power mark, Im going for 400+ rwhp my self with the same turbo except I'll be running a slightly smaller 1.00 turbine housing. Well, its been done before, but not by many people at all. The 400 rwhp mark on this turbo will probly need to be around 16-18 psi near the edge of its sweet spot. Theoredically it can be done, but in practice most are getting 350-380 @14-18 psi, but most of those people have questionable tuning and most have the log type cast manifolds. BDC did it but didnt he have some sort of water to air intercooler which droppped his intake temps some rediculous amount (68 degrees)? Like I said its a great turbo choice and with every thing in the entire engine system all work and are tuned in harmony 425 hp will happen, at least thats what im shooting for also

ronbros3

I have had a water to air with pump and resievour since 98 it works great, hi sustained boost tho pushes up temps in intake, cruising its perfect, if im going to race stop by 7-11 for bag of crushed ice, drops temps 50% in 3 minutes, but I dont think any engine can take 18 lbs. boost continuasly, say 1/2 hr. like siver state classic challenge in nevada, but diesels can take it . food for thought, why do you think Dakah rally is going to diesels, i have a buddy who runs 22 lbs for 4 hrs at a time

haltechrx7

OK - people asked about the setup.

Right now I'm running a 12A with the F.I. system I will use with the 13B and turbo.

I will do the engine swap and turbo when our house (and garage) is finished in 2 months.
As far as the turbo goes - I did not buy the parts yet.
I'm reading Maximum Boost now so I can select the optimum turbo components.
I'm leaning towards a version of TO4-E.
I can live with lag - I'm going for Max Power.

I already built the engine.
A Street Ported GSL-SE 6 port engine with the stock rotors (9.4:1 compression)
EVERY part (except for the iron housings) are new.
It's a VERY good motor and has been "run in" on the bench for 5 hours.

I plan to use the stock intake manifold lower half, Racing Beat Dellorto top half, Dual 50mm TB's (TWM).
The TB's have 1 injector each.

I have this setup on my 12A now (using the entire Dellorto Intake manifold) so I would get use to the Haltech and tuning before I do it on the "Good" engine with turbo.
It's been working fine.

Currently I'm making an Air box that I can pressurize.
I expect to be able to run 12 # of boost or more - so the "Intercooling" must be as good as technology allows. I'll even be willing to do crazy stuff like water/alcohol spray on it.

I currently have four MSD-6A's and 4 MSD Coils in direct fire for each plug controlled by the Haltech E6X.
I think I got the ignition covered.

I plan to run low pressure fuel to a "Swirl Tank" in the front - then a High pressure Walbro pump to the fuel rail.
I'm using a TWM Fuel Pressure regulator.
I guess I'll need to get another regulator since it looks like I'll have 2 fuel rails.

The car is a daily driver with autocross

Yes - a Water IC can eventually run out of "cooling Power"
I can't imagine being under boost for more than 15 sec or so, but during "Spirited Driving" there can be many minutes of occational boost.
I don't have a feel for if this is stretching the limits or not of a water IC.

The only reason I like the idea of a Water IC is that it can be mounted anywhere, shorten the intake length, would probably?? function better - and give the raciator and A/C more cooling air.

The road temperature here is probably among the hottest in the country.

I'm not sure what a "V Mount" IC means?!?!

And I'll be happy to get together with anyone who comes here.

Steve C
82 RX-7
72 914

bcty

more like a > mount setup
IC on top and Rad on bottom so both get direct airflow.
IC blocking the rad is not an issue as much
but proper ducting is still a must

BDC

I ought to toss this out -- for anyone commenting on Air to Water for both street and racing use, have you guys actually experimented with them personally and used them? I have. They work. They work well. I am never, ever going back to air-to-air.

B

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I will be fabing something shortly for my 20b project. There is no way in hell that I'm going to stick a front mount IC in front of my radiator (especially considering how hot it gets here in west Texas). Keeping the engine cool will be a chore in itself. Also 20b's in general don't need alot of boost to provide tons of power therefore making an air/water setup perfect.


Oh yea, I also like the fact that they don't need huge cores to effectively cool air. Because of their smaller size, lag will be reduced due to the turbo having shorter piping and a smaller core to pressurize before the charge air hits the manifold. This will also improve throttle response.

APEXL8T

Same here .

13btnos

iTrader: (1)

Hey BDC,
Could you post up some shots of your setup if you have any? I'm really interested in this setup but I have not seen anyone running one on the streets. Only seen them on racecars at the strip.

BoostedRex

I'd be curious to see it too. Is it really that much better than a V-mount air to air setup? I always figured that air to water would be great for drag racing, but not drifting or autoX. Please share your pictures.

Zach

haltechrx7

[QUOTE=t-von]I will be fabing something shortly for my 20b project. There is no way in hell that I'm going to stick a front mount IC in front of my radiator (especially considering how hot it gets here in west Texas). Keeping the engine cool will be a chore in itself. Also 20b's in general don't need alot of boost to provide tons of power therefore making an air/water setup perfect.

Does this mean the Air/Water IC's are best in lower boost applications?

The people using Air/Water......
Any particular model numbers I can look at?
Since I'm using a ported 13B - I'm pretty sure I need 12# of boost and around 600CFM.
Does that sound about right?
Actually - I should probably size things a little bit extra - I have a feeling I'll be able to run more than 12#

Steve C

ronbros3

you really dont need any intercooler when your not on boost, but lately i have been looking into water/alky injection just for boost conditions, i have had a system on my car for about 2 yrs. but also the water to air intercooler system , i dont know which works better. i havent had the nerve to raise boost over 20 psi , that puts me over 400 rwhp on dyno. i wish engines were cheaper, so i could experiment with simpler systems, i have gone thru a few , I dont mind the work its the money. RON

APEXL8T

This my car with a Greddy modified I.C.enclosed to make air 2 water , the gallon water tank is on the right (Aircraft fill cap) .The black radiator is a all copper heat exchanger dedicated to the effeciency of the I.C. We use a small Jabsco pump with a magnetic impellor which is from Ford Motorsports from the Ford Lightning. It is small, quiet and has the correct flow rate.The Red I.C. is the same but is now powder coated...everything is now that color under the hood.
This does not impede A/C or radiator. Hoses run to all. Turns on with key or you can let it circulate with a separate switch.
Hope this helps.We have done three of these. BDC seems to have a good one too.Sorry I cant find the build pictures.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

On a street driven car yes. They will take longer to heat soak at lower boost levels. The problem with water/air on a street driven car with substained high boost driving (or occasional autocross events) is that there's usually not enough room to install a large capacity heat exchanger to cool the water. Without a large capacity heat exchanger, you will be limited on how much boost you can run for lengthy periods of time. Remember the higher the boost you run, the higher the charge temps will be which in turn will heat up the water much faster. This is why a high efficiancy heat exchanger or a larger capacity setup is mandatory to keep the water cool. This however is why sometimes an air/air setup is better. They have an unlimited supply of air to pass through the fins were as the water IC will only have X amount of water within the designed system. Then again you can always put in ice water in your reservior for a short really high boost run.

Quick easy example: Go to the kitchen and boil 1 cup of water. See how long that takes to happen. Now boil 5 cups of water. It will take much longer for the water to boil at the same temp.

haltechrx7

I found an interesting article about - in a street car - in intercooler acts more like a "Heat Sink" than a "Radiator".
Actually that is probably right - for street car spirited driving.

The link is:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_...popularArticle

I don't do road racing where I would use extended boost.
Boost would usually be a few seconds at a time.
Even a 1/4 mile would be way less than 15 sec.
Maybe a little longer for autocross.

Given the choice - I would maximize power for the street since this is my daily driver. If I heat soak at an autocross - I can live with losing some power by the end of the run.

Water/Alcohol spray on the Intercooler's radiator will reduce the heat soak issues.
The higher thermal mass of water helps reduce heat soak during short boost, but will take longer to cool down also.

The amount of water in the system can be adjusted to deal with heat soaking

A Water/Air - at least in my engine compartment - would greatly reduce the air path length.

Obviously Air/Air would be needed for "long duration Boost", but I think the short duration blasts of a street car might benefit from Air/Water

What do you guys think of that article??
I'll start another post about intake manifold design after I write this

Steve C

Marcel Burkett

To keep it all very simple , I am using my air to air IC in combination with direct water injection. There is no extra weight , and it has the ability to over cool , so yes it works very well and it costs less too.

APEXL8T

We compensate for heat soak as stated : good peice.
Water/air intercooling is used less frequently than the air/air approach. However, it has several benefits, especially in cramped engine bays. A water/air intercooler uses a compact heat exchanger located under the bonnet and normally placed in-line with the compressor-to-throttle body path. The heat is transferred to water which is then pumped through a dedicated front-mounted radiator cooled by the airflow generated by the car's movement. A water/air intercooler system consists of these major parts: the heat exchanger, radiator, pump, control system, and plumbing.

Technically, a water/air intercooler has some distinct cooling advantages on road cars. Water has a much higher specific heat value than air. The 'specific heat value' figure shows how much energy a substance can absorb for each degree temp it rises by. A substance good at absorbing energy has a high specific heat value, while one that gets hot quickly has a low specific heat. Something with a high specific heat value can obviously absorb (and then later get rid of) lots of energy - good for cooling down the air.

Air has a specific heat value of 1.01 (at a constant pressure), while the figure for water is 4.18. In other words, for each increase in temp by one degree, the same mass of water can absorb some four times more energy than air. Or, there can be vastly less flow of water than air to get the same job done. Incidentally, note that pure water is best - its specific heat value is actually degraded by 6 per cent when 23 per cent anti-freeze is added! Other commonly-available fluids don't even come close to water's specific heat value.

The high specific heat value of water has a real advantage in its heat sinking affect. An air/water heat exchanger designed so that it has a reasonable volume of water within it can absorb a great deal of heat during a boost spike. Even before the water pump has a chance to transfer in cool water, the heat exchanger has absorbed considerable heat from the intake airstream. It's this characteristic that makes a water/air intercooling system as efficient in normal urban driving with the pump stopped as it is with it running! To explain, the water in the heat exchanger absorbs the heat from the boosted air, feeding it back into the airstream once the car is off boost and the intake air is cooler. I am not suggesting that you don't worry about fitting a water pump, but it is a reminder that in normal driving the intercooler works in a quite different way to how it needs to perform during sustained full throttle. However, the downside of this is once the water in the system has got hot (for example, after you've been driving and then parked for a while), it takes some time for the water to cool down once you again drive off.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

True but alot of this heat soaking can be avoided if the air/water IC is mounted low in the engine bay. Since heat rises, the only thing that will heat the IC is the radiant heat from the asphalt. This takes special fab work but it will work. Only real down side is that the piping will be a little longer depending on location. Too me mouting an air/water IC on top off a hot engine seems counter productive.

APEXL8T

You are correct. In the picture of my car you see it mounted in front(stock local).I can not convey how much heat is not under hood any more. While the radiator itself is still in stock local and the A/C condensor is also then the heat exchanger.......where could we mount the IC other wise? At this time I feel it is adequate and just hope to share some of our info.
Thanks

chuck8313BTSDS

I ran a water/air intercooler for a few years back when I lived in San Antonio. Air temp at the end of the 1/4 mile were in the 50f range and real consistant between winter and summer driving. Boost was 19-21psi. I will go back to one when I return to the states. Currently running a air/air because this is my daily driver. In S.A. I did not have to drive the car everyday. Made the intercooler from a 13-9-3.5 core. The intercooler held over 4 gallons of water. I boxed the hole thing in. end tanks and all. Used a ice chest in the back that held 14lb of ice. The pump was a motor home water pump. Used 3/8 hose to and from. Made 3 to 4 passes before all the ice was melted but the water returning from the intercooler was still cold but still added ice when ever I could. Used 14lb of ice to drive 30-45 minutes through s.a. to work. left home with 4-5 gallons of room temp water, drove 2 miles to buy two bags of ice. that ice lasted the 30-45 minute trip to work. Drove to work like a old man I am. No boost. If I did boost the water temp would increase real fast. did not drive the car much on the streets because ice would cost more then car. Maybe if a heat exchanger was used I could have drove the car more on the street but I know the air temp would not be as cold.
I like my current set up, trust intercooler that measure 16-10-4" thick. running two water injectors for the motor and three water injectors for the intecooler. At 5psi my first water injection nozzle is activated along with three nozzles that spray on my intercooler. Yesterday I was circuit racing on a 1.1km track and my air temp was under 75f when pulled of the track. Out side temp was around 65f. Max boost was .8-.9bar. max speed was 140kmph. Water was all over the intercooler AND some on my radiator. Touched the outlet of my intercooler right after exiting the track and it felt really cold. In 5-8 minutes of circuit racing I used over a gallon of water. running 75% water and 25% windsheild water fluid.
chuck

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Hi! For the record, I wasn't refering to your particual set-up and your IC's mounting location(just so that everone knows). I was mainly refering to the many other locations I see water/air IC's mounted. Usually I see them mounted on top of the engine so the piping will be as short as possible. I just hate all the heat they absorb in that location from a stationary vehicle from heat soak. Mounting the IC in the location that I mentioned before (in this case and FD) would require you to vertically mount the radiator. The custom fabed IC could then be mounted flat and at the base in front of the radiator(just on top of the belly pan). In this location the air wont be blocked while going to the radiator (like with a FMIC). If you have a single turbo this location is perfect because most have the turbo exit facing down. Also this location helps with weight since more weight will be as low as possible.

Now for those of you with stock twins, I would still veritically mount the rad but I would move the rad back towards the engine a couple inches and use a ton of ducting. This would give more clearence so a custom fabed IC could be mounted on top in front of the rad (up there near the hood latch). Another reason for this is that since the stock turbos air path exit on top of the engine, it will be alot easier to run the pipes to an IC that is on top therefore keeping the piping as short as possible.

Lastly with a virtically mounted rad and the custrom fabed IC mounted in front, heat soak will be greatly reduced because in either mounting location(top or bottom) the IC won't be in the hot engine bay.

RETed

I'm one of those notorious nay-sayers on this ON A DAILY DRIVEN STREET APPLICATION.
So far, no one was addressed how it would be beneficial on such an application.
The application on short duration racing is kinda obvious.

Negatives for a daily driven street application?
More complex system -> more things can go wrong
What happens when the system leaks? You can't drive anywhere unless you want to risk damaging the engine.
What happens when the water pump fails? Same as above.
A2A IC's have the advantage of being simpler and thus more reliable.
Do you see A2W IC's on endurance racing? I haven't yet.

When water temps equalize to ambient, you got a very complex A2A system.
The water ends up being a buffer of sorts; when heavy boosting, it takes some time for the intake temps to come down unless you really nail flow rate versus heat capacity relationship - not something most people do - they just throw together a bunch of parts and expect it to work fine.


-Ted