500RWHP FD RX7 on PUMP gas...
01-02-08, 03:01 PM
#151
Is too!
Sure 500rwhp is possible on pump gas (without AI, race gas, blah, blah). I would not advise it unless you have an advanced knowledge of tuning and made modifications to your fluid cooling systems.
Signed,
"Tuna"
Signed,
"Tuna"
01-02-08, 03:54 PM
#152
Yes, the GT40 is the 4094. Could be considered a smaller 42R.
I believe its 67/94mm Comp.
Anyone know what goes good with socks? A1? Barbeque?
I'll be posting as soon as it's all done, broken in, and tuned.
As far as tuning... I plan on having it tuned in Southern California by Danzio. They tune the majority of cars for SpeedMachinePerformance - and I've seen him put out some amazing numbers on the haltec.
I should be scheduling a tune for April granted they're available. I should be calling within the next month to get it all booked. I gotta give myself some time to break it in.
01-02-08, 04:01 PM
#153
*** Bless The USA
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Haha, I'll give it to you on good ol' Arizona crapass 91 Octane... Shell/Chevron.
Yes, the GT40 is the 4094. Could be considered a smaller 42R.
I believe its 67/94mm Comp.
Anyone know what goes good with socks? A1? Barbeque?
I'll be posting as soon as it's all done, broken in, and tuned.
As far as tuning... I plan on having it tuned in Southern California by Danzio. They tune the majority of cars for SpeedMachinePerformance - and I've seen him put out some amazing numbers on the haltec.
I should be scheduling a tune for April granted they're available. I should be calling within the next month to get it all booked. I gotta give myself some time to break it in.
Yes, the GT40 is the 4094. Could be considered a smaller 42R.
I believe its 67/94mm Comp.
Anyone know what goes good with socks? A1? Barbeque?
I'll be posting as soon as it's all done, broken in, and tuned.
As far as tuning... I plan on having it tuned in Southern California by Danzio. They tune the majority of cars for SpeedMachinePerformance - and I've seen him put out some amazing numbers on the haltec.
I should be scheduling a tune for April granted they're available. I should be calling within the next month to get it all booked. I gotta give myself some time to break it in.
Those are the same guys that did the 3 rotor dune buggy right ? I looked at their website, they've tuned some pretty cool/unique cars.
01-02-08, 04:05 PM
#154
Yeah, speed machine used to put out a lot of those rotary dunes... I used to see them in there all the time. They had an FC that was street port, t04r, putting out 450hp at 14psi on a haltec e8. Their tuning is expensive... I believe its like $350/hr generally takes 3 hours for a single map.... but its worth every cent from what I've seen and heard.
01-03-08, 11:45 AM
#155
Performance Veteran...
Thread Starter
Secondly, with AI and the elimination of detonation, can the 13B itself live through 20PSI and 550RWHP reliably as my daily driven setting?? I want at least 25-30,000 miles outta this motor...
Thanks
PS; Good luck with your build dhahlen...i'm excited to see your results*
01-03-08, 02:46 PM
#156
Couple questions, is the GT40R a 67mm turbo?? I always thought it was a 70mm for some reason.
Secondly, with AI and the elimination of detonation, can the 13B itself live through 20PSI and 550RWHP reliably as my daily driven setting?? I want at least 25-30,000 miles outta this motor...
Thanks
PS; Good luck with your build dhahlen...i'm excited to see your results*
Secondly, with AI and the elimination of detonation, can the 13B itself live through 20PSI and 550RWHP reliably as my daily driven setting?? I want at least 25-30,000 miles outta this motor...
Thanks
PS; Good luck with your build dhahlen...i'm excited to see your results*
GT4094R
67.8mm Ind
94.0mm Exd
52 Trim
I had a daily driven 500hp car at 19psi... this was my previous setup a year and a half ago tuned pig rich.
01-03-08, 07:12 PM
#157
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Hey, Viper- You would do well with the gt4094r, but you'd do better with the gt4294r in a t4 frame. The difference between the two is on the hot side. They have the same compressor wheel, but the 42 has a slightly larger turbine wheel, and a much better hot/cold wheel ratio. The wheel ratio on the gt4094 is less than ideal. The gt4294r is the smaller of the gt42's, it is not the bigger 102mm one. For all intents and purposes, it will spool just as fast and make more power at lower boost levels and reduce backpressure and let you run cooler. This turbo, with a streetport is what I'd do. I've been contemplating building a daily driver in the 575 whp range for quite some time and this is how I'd do it. There are other ways of doing it, but I want the smoothest, lowest idling, quietest car I can build, with quick spool. My guess is that the difference in spool time between the gt4094r and the gt4294r can not be practically noticed. You don't need a t6, a t4 housing will do just fine.
01-03-08, 10:06 PM
#159
Hey, Viper- You would do well with the gt4094r, but you'd do better with the gt4294r in a t4 frame. The difference between the two is on the hot side. They have the same compressor wheel, but the 42 has a slightly larger turbine wheel, and a much better hot/cold wheel ratio. The wheel ratio on the gt4094 is less than ideal. The gt4294r is the smaller of the gt42's, it is not the bigger 102mm one. For all intents and purposes, it will spool just as fast and make more power at lower boost levels and reduce backpressure and let you run cooler. This turbo, with a streetport is what I'd do. I've been contemplating building a daily driver in the 575 whp range for quite some time and this is how I'd do it. There are other ways of doing it, but I want the smoothest, lowest idling, quietest car I can build, with quick spool. My guess is that the difference in spool time between the gt4094r and the gt4294r can not be practically noticed. You don't need a t6, a t4 housing will do just fine.
I've looked at similar setup to my build using the 4094 and I was simply stunned with the results. As I keep saying, I'll let them proof do all the talking when she's all said and done. And if I am not happy... then maybe I'll slap that 4294.. or maybe even a T6 frame as Capt. Obvious stated
01-04-08, 12:19 AM
#160
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The exhaust trim in conjunction with the fully divided setup as well as the compressor wheel will make a much better power curve than the 4294.
I've looked at similar setup to my build using the 4094 and I was simply stunned with the results. As I keep saying, I'll let them proof do all the talking when she's all said and done. And if I am not happy... then maybe I'll slap that 4294.. or maybe even a T6 frame as Capt. Obvious stated
I've looked at similar setup to my build using the 4094 and I was simply stunned with the results. As I keep saying, I'll let them proof do all the talking when she's all said and done. And if I am not happy... then maybe I'll slap that 4294.. or maybe even a T6 frame as Capt. Obvious stated
The gt42 standard hot side is 82 mm in an 84 trim. The 42 gives you a better wheel ratio than the 40, the larger trim flows more relatively, and is only marginally larger on the hot side, so how do you get a "much better power curve" out of it????
01-04-08, 12:02 PM
#161
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Thread Starter
AI makes a world of difference. I ran 23PSI on 91 + Methanol and it worked out great.... ran very cool. If you do a 50/50 Denatured/Water combo for the AI you'll probably do very, very well at 20psi.
GT4094R
67.8mm Ind
94.0mm Exd
52 Trim
I had a daily driven 500hp car at 19psi... this was my previous setup a year and a half ago tuned pig rich.
GT4094R
67.8mm Ind
94.0mm Exd
52 Trim
I had a daily driven 500hp car at 19psi... this was my previous setup a year and a half ago tuned pig rich.
...A good friend of mine whom also owns a performance shop (known for EVO & Supra work) is laughing at me and says it can't be done RELIABLY. He says my rotary will 'pop like they ALL do' at THAT HP level if i try to run it like that as a daily driven car. He says its an unreliable motor with an unreliable band aid in having Alcohol injection which itself has often been very unreliable in his vast experience with AI kits on EVO's. He's telling me to 'just stuff a chevy V8 in it' which makes me cringe just thinking about it...i wouldn't even be remotely interested in a chevy-mazda rx7 mutt.
Comments and rebutts on my concerns are highly appreciated.
01-04-08, 12:58 PM
#162
Remember, this is a turbocharged car.
That's what a boost controller is for. You don't have to have the car on "set to kill" all the time.
You can run 400-450rwhp, daily, and reliably, as long as you like.
You can run it on regular 93 and be very happy. Trust me. a 400rwhp FD will move much faster than than a 500 HP Viper or Supra.
Just don't go for such extreme boost levels. Keep it at 18 psi or less, and keep it coooool. That's it.
When you need more power, that's what the "Hi-Boost" button is for. Then you can have your 550 rwhp with AI (or preferably just running e85) whenever you feel the need to put someone in their place. You will then exceed "normal" boost levels, but at least its not
a constant abuse on the engine.
You don't need 550 rwhp to commute back and forth to the grocery store.
That's what a boost controller is for. You don't have to have the car on "set to kill" all the time.
You can run 400-450rwhp, daily, and reliably, as long as you like.
You can run it on regular 93 and be very happy. Trust me. a 400rwhp FD will move much faster than than a 500 HP Viper or Supra.
Just don't go for such extreme boost levels. Keep it at 18 psi or less, and keep it coooool. That's it.
When you need more power, that's what the "Hi-Boost" button is for. Then you can have your 550 rwhp with AI (or preferably just running e85) whenever you feel the need to put someone in their place. You will then exceed "normal" boost levels, but at least its not
a constant abuse on the engine.
You don't need 550 rwhp to commute back and forth to the grocery store.
01-04-08, 01:00 PM
#163
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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your "good friend" is either trying to sell you something or doesn't know what he is talking about.
this is not to say that running some other engine in your fd is good or bad. i couldn't care less. but when someone says the rotary is unreliable i say to that person you don't know how to build them or tune them or both.
if you do some homework on AI turbo'd rotaries you will find close to no knock, nice egts etc etc at around 500 rw.
things get dicey above 600 as the E shaft actually starts to bend a bit since there isn't a center main bearing.
further, AI isn't "unreliable". the new systems function like your fuel system and the pump just provides a constant pressure. i have run AI for 2 years and had zero problems.
build what you want but if you build and fixture a rotary right they will pump out the hp. no valve springs, no valves to hit the pistons. my engine that i built just finished it's third year, second year on alcohol and when i put it away for the wisconsin winter it had the highest compression it has had since it was built. nothing trick inside, mazda 3 mm apex seals etc. we did over 35 4th gear dyno runs from 2000 to 8000 in 07 and i will be back on the dyno in March. currently making 364 ft pounds Tq at 15.8 psi on pump and alcohol. objective 630 rwhp at 23 psi.
you need to find the right people to work with just like any other engineering project.
good luck,
howard coleman
this is not to say that running some other engine in your fd is good or bad. i couldn't care less. but when someone says the rotary is unreliable i say to that person you don't know how to build them or tune them or both.
if you do some homework on AI turbo'd rotaries you will find close to no knock, nice egts etc etc at around 500 rw.
things get dicey above 600 as the E shaft actually starts to bend a bit since there isn't a center main bearing.
further, AI isn't "unreliable". the new systems function like your fuel system and the pump just provides a constant pressure. i have run AI for 2 years and had zero problems.
build what you want but if you build and fixture a rotary right they will pump out the hp. no valve springs, no valves to hit the pistons. my engine that i built just finished it's third year, second year on alcohol and when i put it away for the wisconsin winter it had the highest compression it has had since it was built. nothing trick inside, mazda 3 mm apex seals etc. we did over 35 4th gear dyno runs from 2000 to 8000 in 07 and i will be back on the dyno in March. currently making 364 ft pounds Tq at 15.8 psi on pump and alcohol. objective 630 rwhp at 23 psi.
you need to find the right people to work with just like any other engineering project.
good luck,
howard coleman
01-04-08, 04:16 PM
#164
A rotary shop is not your average EVO/Supra shop. It's a whole different breed of builders. Cult like society of enthusiasts deeply fond of the spinning triangles. The preferred way of making gobs of power. Very addictive.
keep your pocketbook close by
01-04-08, 04:39 PM
#165
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Howard hit the nail on the head. Your friend knows Supra's and Evo's. Both are great cars, but he doesn't know anything about a rotary so its assumed to be unreliable. THis is an ingnorant statement. I drive my car every weekend ( yes a weekend car) but given the abuse I put my car through on the track and the street and its still strong as hell and Im pushing over 800bhp and I drive it that way EVERYTIME I get in the car, lol...
As far as AI is concerned, again, just because something doesn't work well on one car doesn't mean it won't work well on another. You can go straight water injection if your concerned with meth/alchy. The water has better cooling properties as well as acting as a displacement adder because its not burned off. This is also very good because it eliminates any carbon build up in a rotary. Good luck with your choice, but don't let your piston friend sway your mind.
As far as AI is concerned, again, just because something doesn't work well on one car doesn't mean it won't work well on another. You can go straight water injection if your concerned with meth/alchy. The water has better cooling properties as well as acting as a displacement adder because its not burned off. This is also very good because it eliminates any carbon build up in a rotary. Good luck with your choice, but don't let your piston friend sway your mind.
01-04-08, 04:43 PM
#166
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I am running a street port on pump gas with a kkk 27 turbo @ 12 psi making 397 rwhp daily driven. One Supra TT fuel pump and 550cc primary, 1600cc secondary injectors. I am currentlly adding another fuel pump and going to 850cc primaries with AI. It should make over 500 rwhp reliably and daily driven.
01-04-08, 05:35 PM
#167
Performance Veteran...
Thread Starter
if you do some homework on AI turbo'd rotaries you will find close to no knock, nice egts etc etc at around 500 rw.
things get dicey above 600 as the E shaft actually starts to bend a bit since there isn't a center main bearing.
further, AI isn't "unreliable". the new systems function like your fuel system and the pump just provides a constant pressure. i have run AI for 2 years and had zero problems.
things get dicey above 600 as the E shaft actually starts to bend a bit since there isn't a center main bearing.
further, AI isn't "unreliable". the new systems function like your fuel system and the pump just provides a constant pressure. i have run AI for 2 years and had zero problems.
Again, how long will a properly tuned 13B running on AI and pump last that is SET AT 20PSI & 550RWHP the whole time.....obvously i won't be WOT the whole time as its a street car but i will drive it day-to-day hard* ....i'm looking for >25,000 miles on the motor. Pipe dream or has been done* ??
Last edited by Viper GTSR; 01-04-08 at 06:01 PM.
01-04-08, 10:39 PM
#168
I know of many who would disagree with that statement including myself. Everyone have their way of making a combination work. The only way you're going to find out is either by doing it yourself and learning the hard way or go to a shop who have done it allready and pay for their sevices.
01-06-08, 01:50 PM
#169
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See post #575 at the bottom of page.
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/nrs-rotorsports-ceramic-seal-test-results-182522/page23/
Glassman responds to my question at top of Page 24, but he doesn't answer the question with respect to OEM seals, and says essentially that you'll have to wait and see with the NRS seals.
I'm not sure your going to find anyone with any credibility who'll say that you can bet on making it 25,000 on OEM seals. I'd say your odds are better with the NRS seals, though.
My instinct is that you've got no better than 50/50 odds on OEM seals, and better odds on NRS seals. I am by no means an expert on this ****, and I hope some others will chime in. You've asked the question several times already and I'm hoping some of the ol' pros will have something to say on it.
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/nrs-rotorsports-ceramic-seal-test-results-182522/page23/
Glassman responds to my question at top of Page 24, but he doesn't answer the question with respect to OEM seals, and says essentially that you'll have to wait and see with the NRS seals.
I'm not sure your going to find anyone with any credibility who'll say that you can bet on making it 25,000 on OEM seals. I'd say your odds are better with the NRS seals, though.
My instinct is that you've got no better than 50/50 odds on OEM seals, and better odds on NRS seals. I am by no means an expert on this ****, and I hope some others will chime in. You've asked the question several times already and I'm hoping some of the ol' pros will have something to say on it.
Last edited by Old Slow Coach; 01-06-08 at 01:56 PM.
01-06-08, 05:45 PM
#170
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It's all about keeping cool.
Water, oil and air temps are most important.
That setup you mentioned above was a secondary bridge ported T2 motor with 8.5 rotors at 20psi made just over 510hp on 93 octane blowing through a Holley carb. Believe it or not it ran at 22psi most of the times with 93 octane without any problems. The way the carb atomised the fuel had a lot to do with it as most of the present day tuners have found the same to be true with piston motors also. They can run a lot more boost with the carb vs efi setups on pump gas. The sudden drop in pressure through the carb resulted in a major drop in charge temp also. This setup can be duplicated to an extent with efi by placing the injectors further away from the motor. Also the type on intake manifold/throttelbody design plays an important role. Some of the 4bbl TB EFI setups come very close. That was one of the major reasons why I never ran the factory intake for a long time. The performance level with the reliability was just not there especially back then when race gas was something you only heard about at the race tracks. You also learn a lot of these things the hard way before most of you knew what a turbocharged rotary was like some of the early suck through setups that used no intercooler. Detonation was very willing to say hello back then. I cracked my first rear iron in the late 80's early 90's to be exact.
It's all about heat control management. It's the same results you try to achieved by using AI.
How many in here actually spend the extra time to remove the excess heat that's not needed. For example plugging the egr holes in the rotor housing so the heat don't travel up the side housing to the intake manifold? You'll be surprise how all these little things adds up to making efficent power with reliability.
It's all about trial and error. Horsepower does not come cheap but some of it is availble free and in the end it all adds up.
All I can say keep trying along these guidlines and you will discover a lot more along the way.
Happy Now!
Water, oil and air temps are most important.
That setup you mentioned above was a secondary bridge ported T2 motor with 8.5 rotors at 20psi made just over 510hp on 93 octane blowing through a Holley carb. Believe it or not it ran at 22psi most of the times with 93 octane without any problems. The way the carb atomised the fuel had a lot to do with it as most of the present day tuners have found the same to be true with piston motors also. They can run a lot more boost with the carb vs efi setups on pump gas. The sudden drop in pressure through the carb resulted in a major drop in charge temp also. This setup can be duplicated to an extent with efi by placing the injectors further away from the motor. Also the type on intake manifold/throttelbody design plays an important role. Some of the 4bbl TB EFI setups come very close. That was one of the major reasons why I never ran the factory intake for a long time. The performance level with the reliability was just not there especially back then when race gas was something you only heard about at the race tracks.
You also learn a lot of these things the hard way before most of you knew what a turbocharged rotary was like some of the early suck through setups that used no intercooler. Detonation was very willing to say hello back then. I cracked my first rear iron in the late 80's early 90's to be exact. It's all about heat control management. It's the same results you try to achieved by using AI.
How many in here actually spend the extra time to remove the excess heat that's not needed. For example plugging the egr holes in the rotor housing so the heat don't travel up the side housing to the intake manifold? You'll be surprise how all these little things adds up to making efficent power with reliability.
It's all about trial and error. Horsepower does not come cheap but some of it is availble free and in the end it all adds up.
All I can say keep trying along these guidlines and you will discover a lot more along the way.
Happy Now!
Chris has mentioned once again the main ingrients to reach that level without blowing up.
The biggest help is running a lower compression rotor, such as the 8.5:1 rotors from the 87-88 Turbo IIs.
With heat being the biggest enemy, oiling, cooling and intercooling systems need to be modded/upgraded to keep the engine happy and add efficiency to the overall package.
With the right package and tune, most 13Bs should see 450-500rwh with reliability.
I've dynoed 485rwh on a 13B-REW (9:1 rotors) with a T67 turbo and trapped 127-128mph years ago on 93 octane. I've been running a T70 for 2 years now and trapped 128-130mph which should be 500rwh or very near on same 9:1 rotors and 20psi.
You know its repeatable when you could take 3rd, 4th and 5th gear to 180mph over and over without breaking at 18-20psi. Kinda crazy since I don't even have an EGT gauge !!! which I would recommend for anyone doing continuous full boost runs.
I think I'll drop some Turbo II rotors in there and try 22psi like Chris :smile:
many FD guys don't even think of this option....
01-06-08, 08:00 PM
#171
Will work for horsepower
Thats my set up and im on a 20 lb spring and 93 oct. t11 rotors lightened cermet coated and cermet coated housings. Runs good starts great hot or cold cruses the hwy and runs average 175 deg water temps.
01-06-08, 10:15 PM
#173
How many miles did you put on the car/motor @ 23PSI? Same thing for 19PSI? Did you drive the car at least 3 or 4 times a week? I wanna know how many guys here actually DRIVE their 13B's daily at similar boost levels for extended periods of time....one drive a week isn't a daily driver* Can 20PSI & 550RWHP on AI and 93oct be done reliably as a daily driven set-up??...looking for at least over 25,000miles out of the motor.
...A good friend of mine whom also owns a performance shop (known for EVO & Supra work) is laughing at me and says it can't be done RELIABLY. He says my rotary will 'pop like they ALL do' at THAT HP level if i try to run it like that as a daily driven car. He says its an unreliable motor with an unreliable band aid in having Alcohol injection which itself has often been very unreliable in his vast experience with AI kits on EVO's. He's telling me to 'just stuff a chevy V8 in it' which makes me cringe just thinking about it...i wouldn't even be remotely interested in a chevy-mazda rx7 mutt.
Comments and rebutts on my concerns are highly appreciated.
...A good friend of mine whom also owns a performance shop (known for EVO & Supra work) is laughing at me and says it can't be done RELIABLY. He says my rotary will 'pop like they ALL do' at THAT HP level if i try to run it like that as a daily driven car. He says its an unreliable motor with an unreliable band aid in having Alcohol injection which itself has often been very unreliable in his vast experience with AI kits on EVO's. He's telling me to 'just stuff a chevy V8 in it' which makes me cringe just thinking about it...i wouldn't even be remotely interested in a chevy-mazda rx7 mutt.
Comments and rebutts on my concerns are highly appreciated.
01-07-08, 12:55 AM
#174
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The local pros back then had no idea how I made so much power without ever breaking the thing and some tried to tell me it wasn't possible when I told them the hardware I was using. So, when you brought up heat rejection stuff, that's what I was hoping you'd answer with because I agree with you 100%. I don't know if the fuel blends have changed any from your earlier time, to my earlier time, to the present that would present a problem now with trying to achieve that goal (my gut says they have and it'd be related to EPA mandates; someone smarter than me can either corroborate that or correct me on it), but the way you took it is the right way I think.
B
B
If anything fuel blends may have improved with the introduction of Ethanol.
Since I started using BP-93 with 10% Ethanol my knock numbers under boost are much lower compared to Exxon/Mobil or Sunoco back years ago.
Chris achieved that goal then and I'm sure he could achieve it today with less effort. Don't see any new fuel blends presenting a problem.
JD
01-07-08, 01:23 AM
#175
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Hey, Viper- You would do well with the gt4094r, but you'd do better with the gt4294r in a t4 frame. The difference between the two is on the hot side. They have the same compressor wheel, but the 42 has a slightly larger turbine wheel, and a much better hot/cold wheel ratio. The wheel ratio on the gt4094 is less than ideal. The gt4294r is the smaller of the gt42's, it is not the bigger 102mm one. For all intents and purposes, it will spool just as fast and make more power at lower boost levels and reduce backpressure and let you run cooler. This turbo, with a streetport is what I'd do. I've been contemplating building a daily driver in the 575 whp range for quite some time and this is how I'd do it. There are other ways of doing it, but I want the smoothest, lowest idling, quietest car I can build, with quick spool. My guess is that the difference in spool time between the gt4094r and the gt4294r can not be practically noticed. You don't need a t6, a t4 housing will do just fine.
GT4094R uses a 67.8mm inducer vs the GT4294R 's 70.3mm.
Exducer are same at 94mm.
JD