352whp @ 14psi - low or normal for GT35R?
is The Whoopieschnootz
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: Asheville NC
I know he was making over 400 with the stock twins, but I forget at what boost. It's not in his sig anymore.
is The Whoopieschnootz
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: Asheville NC
Damn... it was actually 405@14psi on stock twins. Then again... MoTeC > PFC. The limit he hit was where EGT's and EMAP started to get (what he considered) out of hand.
That's straight out of the horse's mouth.
That's straight out of the horse's mouth.
Now, I say "assumptions" because that's what those people are basing their positions off of. They are ASSuming that the map was tuned through the hand commander (despite the OP confirming that a datalogit and PC were used), they are ASSuming that the person doing the job had no idea what they were doing, they were ASSuming that the tune would quickly lead to the OP's motor failing. I seem to recall the OP saying that the car was running fine, it idled well, the AFR was steady and acceptable (any "hiccup" that will blow a motor at 11.7:1 would also likely blow the motor at 10.7:1).
many times i see problem maps after someone tells me "i never saw the AFRs lean out at all". an air pocket while cornering or a faulty single cell can cost a motor without even noticing a quick lean spike. skirting the single cell may not be noticable until you get centered within that cell and sometimes that takes some time.
granted i admit i never did look at the OP's map, so i can't even point out any problems aside from what was mentioned. which is also why i never commented on it directly outside of what others noticed with it. counter measures are redundant versus making the obvious adjustments.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; Mar 29, 2013 at 01:32 PM.
I just read through this entire thread, as it seemed interesting.
It seems multiple experienced, knowledgeable tuners pointed out several issues with the tune. A few people commented on whether or not these issues were just a difference in "method".
If it were me, as a general consumer, any red flags as indicated, and the evidence of a rushed tune, would make me look to get a re-tune. If OP is still on good terms with the tuner as indicated, why not take all these suggestions and throw them at your tuner. It seems everything is fixable, just requires more time and effort. You had 3 reputable shops, as well as other knowledgeable persons look at the tune, and each pointed out problems.
If it were me I'd dish the extra $300-500 and get it done right, avoiding even the slightest possibility of problems down the road. Why risk it? My 2c
It seems multiple experienced, knowledgeable tuners pointed out several issues with the tune. A few people commented on whether or not these issues were just a difference in "method".
If it were me, as a general consumer, any red flags as indicated, and the evidence of a rushed tune, would make me look to get a re-tune. If OP is still on good terms with the tuner as indicated, why not take all these suggestions and throw them at your tuner. It seems everything is fixable, just requires more time and effort. You had 3 reputable shops, as well as other knowledgeable persons look at the tune, and each pointed out problems.
If it were me I'd dish the extra $300-500 and get it done right, avoiding even the slightest possibility of problems down the road. Why risk it? My 2c
Another side to the story is parts fitting parts well or poorly.
You may have the best turbo setup for your engine's porting but your IC or complete ignition system may be crap.
If all your parts work well together your power may be high compared to the average.
The opposite also happens.
We all have seen both.
You may have the best turbo setup for your engine's porting but your IC or complete ignition system may be crap.
If all your parts work well together your power may be high compared to the average.
The opposite also happens.
We all have seen both.
Fair play, like you said it's the internet and I didn't know what your background is.
You are correct in that a new tune is cheaper than a new engine, the OP was actually pretty smart to get his car re-tuned when he did since his previous map was most certainly completely fucked. I had my own car mapped by the same guy that originally did the OPs and it was NOT pretty.
That being said, what you might not know about the other people you referenced is that Rotary Experiment Seven is NOT a tuner, RenesisFD is who knows (I've never seen him mentioned as a competent tuner, all I know is that he's boys with an uber-mod/admin), and I engaged Banzai because they were very obviously attacking the map with impunity under the assumption that they would not need to be accountable for their assumptions. I simply asked Banzai the uncomfortable questions and pointed out situations where they were obviously not living up to the standards by which they seem to hold others.
Now, I say "assumptions" because that's what those people are basing their positions off of. They are ASSuming that the map was tuned through the hand commander (despite the OP confirming that a datalogit and PC were used), they are ASSuming that the person doing the job had no idea what they were doing, they were ASSuming that the tune would quickly lead to the OP's motor failing. I seem to recall the OP saying that the car was running fine, it idled well, the AFR was steady and acceptable (any "hiccup" that will blow a motor at 11.7:1 would also likely blow the motor at 10.7:1).
When... Well... I've always heard it said that to "assume" something is the quickest way to make an "***" out of "u" and "me".
The OP stated that he was fine with his tune and his original purpose for posting this was just to ask if his power was acceptable. Given his modifications and engine history his power level is right where it should be with a conservative tune. That should have been the end of the story.... And yet it clearly isn't.
I apologize for assuming that you were just one of the many fanboys floating around this site.
You are correct in that a new tune is cheaper than a new engine, the OP was actually pretty smart to get his car re-tuned when he did since his previous map was most certainly completely fucked. I had my own car mapped by the same guy that originally did the OPs and it was NOT pretty.
That being said, what you might not know about the other people you referenced is that Rotary Experiment Seven is NOT a tuner, RenesisFD is who knows (I've never seen him mentioned as a competent tuner, all I know is that he's boys with an uber-mod/admin), and I engaged Banzai because they were very obviously attacking the map with impunity under the assumption that they would not need to be accountable for their assumptions. I simply asked Banzai the uncomfortable questions and pointed out situations where they were obviously not living up to the standards by which they seem to hold others.
Now, I say "assumptions" because that's what those people are basing their positions off of. They are ASSuming that the map was tuned through the hand commander (despite the OP confirming that a datalogit and PC were used), they are ASSuming that the person doing the job had no idea what they were doing, they were ASSuming that the tune would quickly lead to the OP's motor failing. I seem to recall the OP saying that the car was running fine, it idled well, the AFR was steady and acceptable (any "hiccup" that will blow a motor at 11.7:1 would also likely blow the motor at 10.7:1).
When... Well... I've always heard it said that to "assume" something is the quickest way to make an "***" out of "u" and "me".
The OP stated that he was fine with his tune and his original purpose for posting this was just to ask if his power was acceptable. Given his modifications and engine history his power level is right where it should be with a conservative tune. That should have been the end of the story.... And yet it clearly isn't.
I apologize for assuming that you were just one of the many fanboys floating around this site.
talking head
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 15
From: Perth, WA, OZ
so.. to quote fendamonky himself in this thread...
I'm going to call bullshit on this one. You're not making over 350whp on stock twins at 14psi unless you're fudging something to make numbers.
Fenda, do keep in mind how much power Brian (Speed1) was throwing down on his twins. Way past 350@14psi.
didnt see any apology to banzia after this point,, who also in post 81 proved things are different to the fendamonky statement .. with evidence
didnt see an apology after this either --
Sorry, I forgot this is the internet and nobody knows anyone's background. I am a Mechanical Engineer and I have been working on cars long enough to know who I should and shouldn't listen to... most of the time.
I know since I don't own a tuning shop and have 5000 posts many people won't care what I have to say. That is fine.
I wasn't attacking anyone. I only replied becuase I think I would want someone to do the same if I was on the fence about a retune.
Have a nice day
I know since I don't own a tuning shop and have 5000 posts many people won't care what I have to say. That is fine.
I wasn't attacking anyone. I only replied becuase I think I would want someone to do the same if I was on the fence about a retune.
Have a nice day
That being said, what you might not know about the other people you referenced is that Rotary Experiment Seven is NOT a tuner, RenesisFD is who knows (I've never seen him mentioned as a competent tuner, all I know is that he's boys with an uber-mod/admin), and I engaged Banzai because they were very obviously attacking the map with impunity under the assumption that they would not need to be accountable for their assumptions. I simply asked Banzai the uncomfortable questions and pointed out situations where they were obviously not living up to the standards by which they seem to hold others.
Now, I say "assumptions" because that's what those people are basing their positions off of. They are ASSuming that the map was tuned through the hand commander (despite the OP confirming that a datalogit and PC were used), they are ASSuming that the person doing the job had no idea what they were doing, they were ASSuming that the tune would quickly lead to the OP's motor failing. I seem to recall the OP saying that the car was running fine, it idled well, the AFR was steady and acceptable (any "hiccup" that will blow a motor at 11.7:1 would also likely blow the motor at 10.7:1).
When... Well... I've always heard it said that to "assume" something is the quickest way to make an "***" out of "u" and "me".
Now, I say "assumptions" because that's what those people are basing their positions off of. They are ASSuming that the map was tuned through the hand commander (despite the OP confirming that a datalogit and PC were used), they are ASSuming that the person doing the job had no idea what they were doing, they were ASSuming that the tune would quickly lead to the OP's motor failing. I seem to recall the OP saying that the car was running fine, it idled well, the AFR was steady and acceptable (any "hiccup" that will blow a motor at 11.7:1 would also likely blow the motor at 10.7:1).
When... Well... I've always heard it said that to "assume" something is the quickest way to make an "***" out of "u" and "me".
so fendamonky followed up with this --
I'm not a tuner, nor do I claim to be and it's not my intention to present myself that way to people who don't know me. As such I didn't even bother downloading the map. However, I also know that his car was previously tuned by Enzo and from what you're saying I wouldn't be surprised if you're looking at Enzo's map.
who has been the one calling all the tuners out as ****** and admits he knows nothing about tuning himself ?
in this thread fendamonky went out to dispute and attack posts from at least 3 people all clearly more experienced and more qualified than himself..
.. and put little or no backup to it
...and in the end admits he isnt a tuner
.. so is hardly qualified to comment on ANYTHING with that tune or how the original tuner went about it.
.. RogueFab, Banzai, and Rotary Experiment Seven all seem to be far more qualified to comment than fendamonky,, and added reasonable points IMO
but are all subjected to his trolling..
all they have done is offer altruistic help
.. and have been subjected to personal attack and innuendo in return
my position in this.. i tune .. i admit i'm not very apexi experienced
.. but i have tuned many ( countless ) micro and haltech cars ..my first one in 1992 ,, before some here where born ....
i wont comment on the map or how it came about
i will however comment this.. take stock of who is doing all the talking,, and what their angle may be,, and their experience
so,, in this situation.. the OP then you should be noting clearly what Banzai, and Rotary Experiment Seven have had to point out
and ignore the obvious misdirection of the thread to troll for bites from fendamoky
You clearly have too much time on your hands if this ^ is the best use of your time that you could come up with.
Ironic that you would bump a thread that was completed and resolved last month with the SOLE intention of instigating a fight, yet at the same time you're calling me the troll...
Ironic that you would bump a thread that was completed and resolved last month with the SOLE intention of instigating a fight, yet at the same time you're calling me the troll...
Whether all that is true or not, being on car forums since 2004 I can probably count on one, maybe two hands the number of times someone has apologized for their previous statement.
talking head
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 15
From: Perth, WA, OZ
You clearly have too much time on your hands if this ^ is the best use of your time that you could come up with.
Ironic that you would bump a thread that was completed and resolved last month with the SOLE intention of instigating a fight, yet at the same time you're calling me the troll...
Ironic that you would bump a thread that was completed and resolved last month with the SOLE intention of instigating a fight, yet at the same time you're calling me the troll...
its not starting a fight,, but finishing the battles you start.. you have come to my attention as someone who several times in the last months has gone out of his way to make trouble
HC, banzai, Rotary Experiment Seven, and myself have all so far in recent months been victims to your deliberate trolling for bites and a reaction outside of being helpful in any thread
as a mod i receive PMs from users concerned about the way you have portrayed yourself and others
this also justifies and compels me to act ..
on further investigation i find several other mods have you in sights for the same thing.. and you have been warned before
take this as the last warning
.. from now on i will infract you for every bite at admin., mods.. or when misdirecting a thread for your or for others agenda
this is not a forum to project your insecurities or delusions
.. you are subject to the same rules as the rest and you are being told that you keep stepping over the line.. now officially and publicly ..
its on your plate.. continue to further protest your delusions in the manner you are doing so and there will be no further discussion,, just actions
do not make further comment in this thread.. it will be construed as you not taking the lesson being handed out
as a mod i came along here with the sole intention of going through YOUR posts and finding out who and where you have been trolling.
its not starting a fight,, but finishing the battles you start.. you have come to my attention as someone who several times in the last months has gone out of his way to make trouble
HC, banzai, Rotary Experiment Seven, and myself have all so far in recent months been victims to your deliberate trolling for bites and a reaction outside of being helpful in any thread
as a mod i receive PMs from users concerned about the way you have portrayed yourself and others
this also justifies and compels me to act ..
on further investigation i find several other mods have you in sights for the same thing.. and you have been warned before
take this as the last warning
.. from now on i will infract you for every bite at admin., mods.. or when misdirecting a thread for your or for others agenda
this is not a forum to project your insecurities or delusions
.. you are subject to the same rules as the rest and you are being told that you keep stepping over the line.. now officially and publicly ..
its on your plate.. continue to further protest your delusions in the manner you are doing so and there will be no further discussion,, just actions
do not make further comment in this thread.. it will be construed as you not taking the lesson being handed out
its not starting a fight,, but finishing the battles you start.. you have come to my attention as someone who several times in the last months has gone out of his way to make trouble
HC, banzai, Rotary Experiment Seven, and myself have all so far in recent months been victims to your deliberate trolling for bites and a reaction outside of being helpful in any thread
as a mod i receive PMs from users concerned about the way you have portrayed yourself and others
this also justifies and compels me to act ..
on further investigation i find several other mods have you in sights for the same thing.. and you have been warned before
take this as the last warning
.. from now on i will infract you for every bite at admin., mods.. or when misdirecting a thread for your or for others agenda
this is not a forum to project your insecurities or delusions
.. you are subject to the same rules as the rest and you are being told that you keep stepping over the line.. now officially and publicly ..
its on your plate.. continue to further protest your delusions in the manner you are doing so and there will be no further discussion,, just actions
do not make further comment in this thread.. it will be construed as you not taking the lesson being handed out
Yessa massa. No more pointing out inconsistencies massa. You'sa right massa.
talking head
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 15
From: Perth, WA, OZ
for everyone's benefit--
From FAQ;
2. Keep in mind that this is not a democracy. We have the right to refuse service to anyone. If you make yourself too big of a pain in the butt to the moderating community or otherwise are a bad influence on the forum, your access may be revoked.
4. Personal attacks against other forum members will not be tolerated, nor will any type of "trolling" for a fight in any forum (including the Difference of Opinion (DoO) section) or for any reason.
6. Be respectful. This is harder to define, but will be moderated. If a moderator believes you are being purposefully disrespectful to a fellow member, you will be notified. Bashing for the sake of bashing will not be tolerated.
the offender has had ample warning in recent times and continues to abuse the rules as clearly defined above
apologies to the OP of this thread for the diversions.. best of luck.. peace ..
From FAQ;
2. Keep in mind that this is not a democracy. We have the right to refuse service to anyone. If you make yourself too big of a pain in the butt to the moderating community or otherwise are a bad influence on the forum, your access may be revoked.
4. Personal attacks against other forum members will not be tolerated, nor will any type of "trolling" for a fight in any forum (including the Difference of Opinion (DoO) section) or for any reason.
6. Be respectful. This is harder to define, but will be moderated. If a moderator believes you are being purposefully disrespectful to a fellow member, you will be notified. Bashing for the sake of bashing will not be tolerated.
apologies to the OP of this thread for the diversions.. best of luck.. peace ..
sayonara, fendamonkey.
i'm by no means an "expert," but i've tuned about 15 haltechs (admittedly, only 2 PFCs) and i'm still wondering why the OP is content with the lackluster tuning he paid for.
the guy who got tuned on the same day immediately after the OP cracked an iron immediately after the tune! how many more red flags do you need?
i'm by no means an "expert," but i've tuned about 15 haltechs (admittedly, only 2 PFCs) and i'm still wondering why the OP is content with the lackluster tuning he paid for.
the guy who got tuned on the same day immediately after the OP cracked an iron immediately after the tune! how many more red flags do you need?
So the question is.. Where do I go from here??
This only happened while cold and symptoms gradually went away as the engine warmed..
there were definitely signs of detonation in the engine, if I was running the stock seals and corners, I'd be way more fucked...
I've got nothing out of this thread, really..
Rotary Evolution is the only one who looked at my map and commented and said he really didn't see anything out of the ordinary...
So any real help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
James
This only happened while cold and symptoms gradually went away as the engine warmed..
there were definitely signs of detonation in the engine, if I was running the stock seals and corners, I'd be way more fucked...
I've got nothing out of this thread, really..
Rotary Evolution is the only one who looked at my map and commented and said he really didn't see anything out of the ordinary...
So any real help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
James
well, you're only a few hours from Kahren. i would absolutely get in touch with him.
he is a friend of mine and he's helped me tremendously over the years, especially with tuning concepts and general knowledge of different setups on different cars and what/not to do.
he's in Berlin, CT.
he is a friend of mine and he's helped me tremendously over the years, especially with tuning concepts and general knowledge of different setups on different cars and what/not to do.
he's in Berlin, CT.
Ive actually had kahren tune my car and a buddies previously, I met him thru Vosko. I had brought it to this other shop to get some fab work done, So it was easier to just have them tune it. Ill guess Ill be giving him a call when I'm back together..
As a a matter of complete disclosure, I am aware of someone who lives in CT who has had his engine blown on the dyno by Kahren as well.
So no tuner is perfect. Just have to pick and choose who's best for you.
Kahren has done some mechanical work for me before. Had no problems with his work.
So no tuner is perfect. Just have to pick and choose who's best for you.
Kahren has done some mechanical work for me before. Had no problems with his work.
yeah we've all blown a motor or two. i'd like to hear the rest of the details about that though.
i can personally recommend kahren, as i've known him for a long time and i've had some deep tuning conversations with him. he's also been a go-to for me when i've had any tuning questions.
i can personally recommend kahren, as i've known him for a long time and i've had some deep tuning conversations with him. he's also been a go-to for me when i've had any tuning questions.
I honestly don't get how this thread got so far off topic... to me it's pretty simple:
1) The OP is making expected power at 14 psi with a cat. On a GT4082, at 15 psi, I made 354 with a cat and 395 without IIRC. They can be very restrictive, and 14 lbs is lower than most people run.
2) Yes it's strange that car was tuned with PIM and had the injectors set lower. But really, that's all it is - strange. There's lots of ways to adjust fuel, who know why he choose to do it this way; he very likely spent time tweaking it cell by cell as well. Who knows...
3) The OP has said the car drives great, smooth, and idles well. This says a lot. I've driven a lot of poor tunes over the years... good tunes feel good; it's noticeable and obvious.
4) I don't think it's too lean. Yes, there's less margin for error, but as someone else mentioned, if something goes wrong at 11.0 vs. 12.0 AFR, it's going to have the same effect. My cars have all been tuned at 12 AFR (5 different set-ups over 3 cars), and they have been rock solid.
OP, to me, your car drives good and is making expected power and you trust the tuner - I wouldn't worry about it. Just enjoy the car.
1) The OP is making expected power at 14 psi with a cat. On a GT4082, at 15 psi, I made 354 with a cat and 395 without IIRC. They can be very restrictive, and 14 lbs is lower than most people run.
2) Yes it's strange that car was tuned with PIM and had the injectors set lower. But really, that's all it is - strange. There's lots of ways to adjust fuel, who know why he choose to do it this way; he very likely spent time tweaking it cell by cell as well. Who knows...
3) The OP has said the car drives great, smooth, and idles well. This says a lot. I've driven a lot of poor tunes over the years... good tunes feel good; it's noticeable and obvious.
4) I don't think it's too lean. Yes, there's less margin for error, but as someone else mentioned, if something goes wrong at 11.0 vs. 12.0 AFR, it's going to have the same effect. My cars have all been tuned at 12 AFR (5 different set-ups over 3 cars), and they have been rock solid.
OP, to me, your car drives good and is making expected power and you trust the tuner - I wouldn't worry about it. Just enjoy the car
.
I honestly don't get how this thread got so far off topic... to me it's pretty simple:
1) The OP is making expected power at 14 psi with a cat. On a GT4082, at 15 psi, I made 354 with a cat and 395 without IIRC. They can be very restrictive, and 14 lbs is lower than most people run.
2) Yes it's strange that car was tuned with PIM and had the injectors set lower. But really, that's all it is - strange. There's lots of ways to adjust fuel, who know why he choose to do it this way; he very likely spent time tweaking it cell by cell as well. Who knows...
3) The OP has said the car drives great, smooth, and idles well. This says a lot. I've driven a lot of poor tunes over the years... good tunes feel good; it's noticeable and obvious.
4) I don't think it's too lean. Yes, there's less margin for error, but as someone else mentioned, if something goes wrong at 11.0 vs. 12.0 AFR, it's going to have the same effect. My cars have all been tuned at 12 AFR (5 different set-ups over 3 cars), and they have been rock solid.
OP, to me, your car drives good and is making expected power and you trust the tuner - I wouldn't worry about it. Just enjoy the car.
1) The OP is making expected power at 14 psi with a cat. On a GT4082, at 15 psi, I made 354 with a cat and 395 without IIRC. They can be very restrictive, and 14 lbs is lower than most people run.
2) Yes it's strange that car was tuned with PIM and had the injectors set lower. But really, that's all it is - strange. There's lots of ways to adjust fuel, who know why he choose to do it this way; he very likely spent time tweaking it cell by cell as well. Who knows...
3) The OP has said the car drives great, smooth, and idles well. This says a lot. I've driven a lot of poor tunes over the years... good tunes feel good; it's noticeable and obvious.
4) I don't think it's too lean. Yes, there's less margin for error, but as someone else mentioned, if something goes wrong at 11.0 vs. 12.0 AFR, it's going to have the same effect. My cars have all been tuned at 12 AFR (5 different set-ups over 3 cars), and they have been rock solid.
OP, to me, your car drives good and is making expected power and you trust the tuner - I wouldn't worry about it. Just enjoy the car
.But Tunning with pim V is a terrible idea.. it would make you work about 18 x's as much ...
HOW do you figure that Tem??
its simple .. Cruising drivability ..
if you use the pimvolt RPM based increase in fuel it increases fuel at vacume , atmosphere , and Boost . so in order to get good fuel at Full throttle you are comprimising EVERY OTHER throttle position .. yes.. that is an amazing tune.. But you say .. cant he go back and lean the cruising areas and everything else..
But think about it its easier to richen up the cells in certain boost areas then it is to lean out EVVERY OTHER cell to get decent cruise, or lighter loads Afr ..
it is a **** tune.. its only tuned at WOT .. every single other cell is compromised.
Also it has no protection for overboosting . as it was all done using pimvolt
talking head
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 15
From: Perth, WA, OZ
and yours was foremost
i see your fish for a reaction and i raise you one .. with further comments like this you are not helping in this thread
.. go away
i quote myself below.. again.
i see your fish for a reaction and i raise you one .. with further comments like this you are not helping in this thread
.. go away
i quote myself below.. again.
do not make further comment in this thread.. it will be construed as you not taking the lesson being handed out
__________________
__________________
Well 6 months have passed since i originally posted this thread and i figured i'd post a quick status update in case people still thought my tune was crap. I've put about 5000 miles on the car since the tune and even had a chance to do a few laps at Pocono FUSA which is a FAST track considering the back straight is part of the NASCAR oval. I'm happy to report that the car still runs just as well as the day i got it tuned even after many redline/full boost pulls. No cold/hot starting issues. No lumpy idle or low speed jerkiness. Needless to say, i'm still very happy with the tune and glad i didn't bother with getting it retuned. Not to open up a can of worms or anything, but if a car can run this well with a "crappy tune", then perhaps "crappy tune" needs to be redefined.
I'll report back in another 6 months...hopefully it'll be a simple copy/paste of this post.
I'll report back in another 6 months...hopefully it'll be a simple copy/paste of this post.
