3 different motors, same blow by issue (lots of gas in oil)
12-16-09, 05:35 PM
#30
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The other car I watched Karack tune was an S5 BP T70. Just a basic street tune at low boost since there was no dyno nearby. His catch can filled up fast! But at least it didn't go into the oil =/ He had the iron vent blocked and just had the filler neck going to a vented can I believe. He had an Apexi PFC though...so I guess it's just us Microtech boys with gas issues
12-16-09, 05:43 PM
#31
Rofl, I got gas issues alright and it didn't get much better after the super burrito for lunch 
But on a serious note I'm going to be a pissed off bastard if I gotta open this motor again... I remember the wear grooves on the irons being enough to feel them but I didn't think it was that bad. Like I said as soon as I change the oil again, I'll just cruise around at my leaner afr's and see how it goes. If I can get at least 1000 miles out of the car before an oil change I'll be a happy camper.
So you're using a microtech too huh? How do you like it? Are you tuning any on it? I just started and like I told Brian any little changes I make from the tune rx72c gave me and my butt hole starts clenching at the thought of blowing up my motor. We'll see though, hopefully it's nothing internal.
But on a serious note I'm going to be a pissed off bastard if I gotta open this motor again... I remember the wear grooves on the irons being enough to feel them but I didn't think it was that bad. Like I said as soon as I change the oil again, I'll just cruise around at my leaner afr's and see how it goes. If I can get at least 1000 miles out of the car before an oil change I'll be a happy camper. So you're using a microtech too huh? How do you like it? Are you tuning any on it? I just started and like I told Brian any little changes I make from the tune rx72c gave me and my butt hole starts clenching at the thought of blowing up my motor. We'll see though, hopefully it's nothing internal.
12-16-09, 05:51 PM
#32
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^Naw, I don't have the ***** or the money to dink around with the tune. I bought the Lt8s years back on a group buy and Karack was the one to dink around with it...he found that the handcontrollers are a bitch to tune with. And after awhile he got it down with the laptop. He does all my tuning 
Right now I'm just babying it around at 2-3 psi, no WOT stuff haha I've still got my old tune from the BNR. Now that nothing will catch on fire (hopefully >.>) I'll have Karack tune it this weekend on the street at 11 psi until I can upgrade my fuel.
I'm running stock fpr, Cosmo pump, 720cc/1000cc injectors..need a Bosch, aftermarket fpr, and some nice 1680s for the secondarys before I try for 20 psi
Then even farther down the road I need to either get a better ems, or send mine out and have a 3 bar upgrade so I can go over 20.
Right now I'm just babying it around at 2-3 psi, no WOT stuff haha I've still got my old tune from the BNR. Now that nothing will catch on fire (hopefully >.>) I'll have Karack tune it this weekend on the street at 11 psi until I can upgrade my fuel.I'm running stock fpr, Cosmo pump, 720cc/1000cc injectors..need a Bosch, aftermarket fpr, and some nice 1680s for the secondarys before I try for 20 psi
Then even farther down the road I need to either get a better ems, or send mine out and have a 3 bar upgrade so I can go over 20.
12-16-09, 08:37 PM
#34
My bet is on the rich mixtures also. And that's probably what was causing the smoking you PMed me about. Fuel diluted oil seeps past all kinds of things. It's also easy to foul out plugs and have carbon buildup with such rich mixtures.
You won't blow the engine under cruise and idle, take as much fuel as you want out, the worst that will happen is it will hesitate or just not run. Get those highway cruise AFR's to 15.5 if the HBP allows it. And idle should be close to 13.5. Under boost go for high 10's to low 11's. Even if you do have blowby issues taking all that fuel out will help so much.
You won't blow the engine under cruise and idle, take as much fuel as you want out, the worst that will happen is it will hesitate or just not run. Get those highway cruise AFR's to 15.5 if the HBP allows it. And idle should be close to 13.5. Under boost go for high 10's to low 11's. Even if you do have blowby issues taking all that fuel out will help so much.
12-16-09, 08:55 PM
#35
I've had/seen the same problem many times. It's "normal" in my book. The only things I can suggest is/are...
1) Try leaning out the map where you can.
2) 1000k oil changes.
Side-seal clearance can also have an impact but I wouldn't worry about it...
1) Try leaning out the map where you can.
2) 1000k oil changes.
Side-seal clearance can also have an impact but I wouldn't worry about it...
12-16-09, 09:12 PM
#36
Rx7's tend to have fuel diluted oil. And it doesn't help that much of the oil stays in the oil coolers/lines during an oil change. But to have an extra quart after 50 miles is definitely not right. Definitely get the AFR's in order though, those rich mixtures don't help ANYTHING.
12-16-09, 09:58 PM
#38
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Speaking of which, why don't you post your cruise maps Hondahater? the ignition map RX72c gave you was for the stock -5 settings, you might be running too much advance on cruise.
12-16-09, 10:25 PM
#39
My bet is on the rich mixtures also. And that's probably what was causing the smoking you PMed me about. Fuel diluted oil seeps past all kinds of things. It's also easy to foul out plugs and have carbon buildup with such rich mixtures.
You won't blow the engine under cruise and idle, take as much fuel as you want out, the worst that will happen is it will hesitate or just not run. Get those highway cruise AFR's to 15.5 if the HBP allows it. And idle should be close to 13.5. Under boost go for high 10's to low 11's. Even if you do have blowby issues taking all that fuel out will help so much.
You won't blow the engine under cruise and idle, take as much fuel as you want out, the worst that will happen is it will hesitate or just not run. Get those highway cruise AFR's to 15.5 if the HBP allows it. And idle should be close to 13.5. Under boost go for high 10's to low 11's. Even if you do have blowby issues taking all that fuel out will help so much.
12-16-09, 10:38 PM
#41
Rx7's tend to have fuel diluted oil. And it doesn't help that much of the oil stays in the oil coolers/lines during an oil change. But to have an extra quart after 50 miles is definitely not right. Definitely get the AFR's in order though, those rich mixtures don't help ANYTHING.
12-16-09, 10:46 PM
#43
I think it depends on what pulley you're using. Stock pulleys you usually set them at 5*ATDC, but he's using the racing beat pulleys which have the mark for TDC. Doesn't really matter, if you run the stock 5*, you have to factor it into your ignition map anyways.
Speaking of which, why don't you post your cruise maps Hondahater? the ignition map RX72c gave you was for the stock -5 settings, you might be running too much advance on cruise.
Speaking of which, why don't you post your cruise maps Hondahater? the ignition map RX72c gave you was for the stock -5 settings, you might be running too much advance on cruise.
12-17-09, 01:05 AM
#44
run 20W50 engine oil
yea yea, i know... it does bog down the motor some but some ports do tend to dump off more fuel into the oil and overflow, running thicker oil generally cures it as it doesn't allow it into the crankcase as easily. the FBP was dumping tons of fuel into the catch can and it was cured with the thicker oil. he was overfull by 3 quarts after the trip to sevenstock this year(900 miles roundtrip plus a few weeks of city driving), still haven't had a chance to do the fine tuning of the maps but at least it isn't pumping a quart into the case every few hundred miles anymore. it was a rather aggressive BP though, cutting into the rotor housings to get more air.
as for aftermarket pulleys, you need to stamp TDC on ANY pulley you pick up even from reputable shops like racing beat and mazdatrix. the pulleys are a match set to the front hub, any generic pulley with timing marks will NOT be accurate. i have seen them about 20 degrees off. install the stock pulley that came with your motor back on in the TDC position and gently pull it off without disturbing the position of the engine, install the aftermarket pulley and then punch it at the TDC mark. i bet you a case of beer it doesn't match. as you guessed it, don't toss your hubs and pulleys into a general pile, always keep them together or you will have timing issues and not even know it. now as for how to distinguish TDC, i really haven't bothered with deciphering a process to find it but i really do believe it would explain why so many 7's i have seen over the years run hotter than the next and get poorer gas mileage even though everything is relative to the next car.
yea yea, i know... it does bog down the motor some but some ports do tend to dump off more fuel into the oil and overflow, running thicker oil generally cures it as it doesn't allow it into the crankcase as easily. the FBP was dumping tons of fuel into the catch can and it was cured with the thicker oil. he was overfull by 3 quarts after the trip to sevenstock this year(900 miles roundtrip plus a few weeks of city driving), still haven't had a chance to do the fine tuning of the maps but at least it isn't pumping a quart into the case every few hundred miles anymore. it was a rather aggressive BP though, cutting into the rotor housings to get more air.
as for aftermarket pulleys, you need to stamp TDC on ANY pulley you pick up even from reputable shops like racing beat and mazdatrix. the pulleys are a match set to the front hub, any generic pulley with timing marks will NOT be accurate. i have seen them about 20 degrees off. install the stock pulley that came with your motor back on in the TDC position and gently pull it off without disturbing the position of the engine, install the aftermarket pulley and then punch it at the TDC mark. i bet you a case of beer it doesn't match. as you guessed it, don't toss your hubs and pulleys into a general pile, always keep them together or you will have timing issues and not even know it. now as for how to distinguish TDC, i really haven't bothered with deciphering a process to find it but i really do believe it would explain why so many 7's i have seen over the years run hotter than the next and get poorer gas mileage even though everything is relative to the next car.
12-17-09, 02:59 AM
#46
Yeah I got your PM and replied to it, I was thinking we had a back and forth conversation about it. That's been a couple weeks though so I cant remember for sure.
I change my oil every 2-3k and the oil level is always lower never higher. (still running omp)
Does your ECU allow you to set timing based on load and rpm like a 20X 20 map? or is it just by rpm and then has a "cruise area" and "boost area" with limited adjustments?
I'll post one of my timing maps from the PFC later, but my cruise timing is much higher then yours. Even the stock PFC base map has Leading timing in the 25 - 51* range under cruise conditions.
I have *heard* that excessively retarded timing can cause high EGT's, due to the combustion happening as the exhaust valve (ports in our case) are opening. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it seems plausible. And excessively high timing will definitely cause high EGT's if your front pulley happens to be set wrong.
Although a couple things to add. First 1600* F isn't excessive if the measurements are being taken pre turbine. And second: higher EGT's under cruise is not as dangerous compared to WOT. This is due to the concentration of heat being less. There is a difference between temperature and heat. For example a thimble of boiling water poured on your arm is less damaging then a 5 gallon bucket of boiling water poured on your arm. Even though the temperature of the water is the same, the amount of heat there is different. Same thing for an engine, there is less heat during cruise compared to WOT even if the temperatures are the same.
I change my oil every 2-3k and the oil level is always lower never higher. (still running omp)
Does your ECU allow you to set timing based on load and rpm like a 20X 20 map? or is it just by rpm and then has a "cruise area" and "boost area" with limited adjustments?
I'll post one of my timing maps from the PFC later, but my cruise timing is much higher then yours. Even the stock PFC base map has Leading timing in the 25 - 51* range under cruise conditions.
I have *heard* that excessively retarded timing can cause high EGT's, due to the combustion happening as the exhaust valve (ports in our case) are opening. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it seems plausible. And excessively high timing will definitely cause high EGT's if your front pulley happens to be set wrong.
Although a couple things to add. First 1600* F isn't excessive if the measurements are being taken pre turbine. And second: higher EGT's under cruise is not as dangerous compared to WOT. This is due to the concentration of heat being less. There is a difference between temperature and heat. For example a thimble of boiling water poured on your arm is less damaging then a 5 gallon bucket of boiling water poured on your arm. Even though the temperature of the water is the same, the amount of heat there is different. Same thing for an engine, there is less heat during cruise compared to WOT even if the temperatures are the same.
12-17-09, 06:06 AM
#47
run 20W50 engine oil
yea yea, i know... it does bog down the motor some but some ports do tend to dump off more fuel into the oil and overflow, running thicker oil generally cures it as it doesn't allow it into the crankcase as easily. the FBP was dumping tons of fuel into the catch can and it was cured with the thicker oil. he was overfull by 3 quarts after the trip to sevenstock this year(900 miles roundtrip plus a few weeks of city driving), still haven't had a chance to do the fine tuning of the maps but at least it isn't pumping a quart into the case every few hundred miles anymore. it was a rather aggressive BP though, cutting into the rotor housings to get more air.
as for aftermarket pulleys, you need to stamp TDC on ANY pulley you pick up even from reputable shops like racing beat and mazdatrix. the pulleys are a match set to the front hub, any generic pulley with timing marks will NOT be accurate. i have seen them about 20 degrees off. install the stock pulley that came with your motor back on in the TDC position and gently pull it off without disturbing the position of the engine, install the aftermarket pulley and then punch it at the TDC mark. i bet you a case of beer it doesn't match. as you guessed it, don't toss your hubs and pulleys into a general pile, always keep them together or you will have timing issues and not even know it. now as for how to distinguish TDC, i really haven't bothered with deciphering a process to find it but i really do believe it would explain why so many 7's i have seen over the years run hotter than the next and get poorer gas mileage even though everything is relative to the next car.
yea yea, i know... it does bog down the motor some but some ports do tend to dump off more fuel into the oil and overflow, running thicker oil generally cures it as it doesn't allow it into the crankcase as easily. the FBP was dumping tons of fuel into the catch can and it was cured with the thicker oil. he was overfull by 3 quarts after the trip to sevenstock this year(900 miles roundtrip plus a few weeks of city driving), still haven't had a chance to do the fine tuning of the maps but at least it isn't pumping a quart into the case every few hundred miles anymore. it was a rather aggressive BP though, cutting into the rotor housings to get more air.
as for aftermarket pulleys, you need to stamp TDC on ANY pulley you pick up even from reputable shops like racing beat and mazdatrix. the pulleys are a match set to the front hub, any generic pulley with timing marks will NOT be accurate. i have seen them about 20 degrees off. install the stock pulley that came with your motor back on in the TDC position and gently pull it off without disturbing the position of the engine, install the aftermarket pulley and then punch it at the TDC mark. i bet you a case of beer it doesn't match. as you guessed it, don't toss your hubs and pulleys into a general pile, always keep them together or you will have timing issues and not even know it. now as for how to distinguish TDC, i really haven't bothered with deciphering a process to find it but i really do believe it would explain why so many 7's i have seen over the years run hotter than the next and get poorer gas mileage even though everything is relative to the next car.
As far as timing is concerned I have the stock hub that came with my motor but I've changed housings, side housings, and rotors since then. That's interesting information about the timing though, I wouldn't have thought timing would be off if you got a pulley that has the hub built into it from racingbeat. I wonder how they can sell a main pulley with timing marks on it then and not specify that this is just a guestimation pulley and that your timing can be off by as much as 20*. I'm going to check the timing again and just make sure it's right. I think when I checked it before the idle was low and loping a bit so it was hard to get a completely accurate timing reading. I'll have someone hold the revs higher when I lock the timing this time to makes sure it's ok. Also on this tune I have I've boost quite a few times to 17 and 18psi with no ill effects so if timing was way off I'm sure my motor would be toast by now 
12-17-09, 06:11 AM
#48
The nipple is just the stock one on the fc upper oil fill tube.
Timing at cruise I'm sorry to say I don't know. Next time I'm driving I'll take a look. That's something I should know but doing this by yourself is always a tough job especially for your first time tuning
I'll let you know asap though. Of course the weather down here has been preventing me from driving due to the **** ton of rain we've been having but as soon as it stops I'll be going for another cruise.
12-17-09, 06:26 AM
#49
Yeah I got your PM and replied to it, I was thinking we had a back and forth conversation about it. That's been a couple weeks though so I cant remember for sure.
I change my oil every 2-3k and the oil level is always lower never higher. (still running omp)
Does your ECU allow you to set timing based on load and rpm like a 20X 20 map? or is it just by rpm and then has a "cruise area" and "boost area" with limited adjustments?
I'll post one of my timing maps from the PFC later, but my cruise timing is much higher then yours. Even the stock PFC base map has Leading timing in the 25 - 51* range under cruise conditions.
I have *heard* that excessively retarded timing can cause high EGT's, due to the combustion happening as the exhaust valve (ports in our case) are opening. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it seems plausible. And excessively high timing will definitely cause high EGT's if your front pulley happens to be set wrong.
Although a couple things to add. First 1600* F isn't excessive if the measurements are being taken pre turbine. And second: higher EGT's under cruise is not as dangerous compared to WOT. This is due to the concentration of heat being less. There is a difference between temperature and heat. For example a thimble of boiling water poured on your arm is less damaging then a 5 gallon bucket of boiling water poured on your arm. Even though the temperature of the water is the same, the amount of heat there is different. Same thing for an engine, there is less heat during cruise compared to WOT even if the temperatures are the same.
I change my oil every 2-3k and the oil level is always lower never higher. (still running omp)
Does your ECU allow you to set timing based on load and rpm like a 20X 20 map? or is it just by rpm and then has a "cruise area" and "boost area" with limited adjustments?
I'll post one of my timing maps from the PFC later, but my cruise timing is much higher then yours. Even the stock PFC base map has Leading timing in the 25 - 51* range under cruise conditions.
I have *heard* that excessively retarded timing can cause high EGT's, due to the combustion happening as the exhaust valve (ports in our case) are opening. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it seems plausible. And excessively high timing will definitely cause high EGT's if your front pulley happens to be set wrong.
Although a couple things to add. First 1600* F isn't excessive if the measurements are being taken pre turbine. And second: higher EGT's under cruise is not as dangerous compared to WOT. This is due to the concentration of heat being less. There is a difference between temperature and heat. For example a thimble of boiling water poured on your arm is less damaging then a 5 gallon bucket of boiling water poured on your arm. Even though the temperature of the water is the same, the amount of heat there is different. Same thing for an engine, there is less heat during cruise compared to WOT even if the temperatures are the same.
t*rpm
Screen 23
Idle ~ 00
1000 ~ 10
1500 ~ 15
2000 ~ 20
2500 ~ 25
3000 ~ 25
3500 ~ 25
4000 ~ 25
4500 ~ 25
5000 ~ 25
5500 ~ 25
6000 ~ 25
6500 ~ 25
7000 ~ 25
7500 ~ ??
8000 ~ 25
9000 ~ 25
t*map Map
Screen 24
Idle ~ 00
25 ~ 05
20 ~ 04
15 ~ 03
10 ~ 02
05 ~ 00
00 ~ 00
2psi ~ 00
4psi ~ 00
6psi ~ 02
8psi ~ -04
10psi ~ -06
14psi ~ -10
16psi ~ -12
18 psi ~ -16
20 psi ~ -20
t*gap
Screen 26
0500 ~ 15
1000 ~ 15
1500 ~ 15
2000 ~ 14
2500 ~ 12
3000 ~ 10
3500 ~ 10
4000 ~ 10
4500 ~ 10
5000 ~ 10
5500 ~ 10
6000 ~ 10
6500 ~ 10
7000 ~ 10
8000 ~ 10
I've taken out as much as 3* in every single one of the fields in the timing map screen. You are really supposed to take out 5* to compensate for the microtech locking timing in at 0 however rx72c said my timing is fine at the above stated figures.
My egt's are logged pre turbo and again rx72c said to expect those egt's during cruise so I'm probably just being overly paranoid like usual.
as far as your thimble analogy it makes sense that with more load the temps would be hotter. My idea was just that since the car will be spending most of it's time cruising around then the high temps for a long extended period of time would start taking it's toll on the internals but then again I'm obviously no expert, lol.