lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Hi all, I am almost finished with the rebuild of my car ( A-Spec GT35R kit, Aquamist HFS5 water/meth injection at 50/50, big K&N filter, 850cc and 1600cc injectors, supra pump going for 2 now, very large streetport, HKS Twin Power, PFS SMIC, Koyo radiator, etc.) and since they have been showing some little low whp figures we started thinking that the intercooler and exhaust could be at fault in it.
The whp we were getting was 320 at 15 psi on a Mustang Dyno. As soon as they took the exhaust out, it went up almost 30whp. If they took the Water/meth out, the power went down almost 30whp also. And when they took the intercooler out, the power went up 5 whp!!
So, the exhaust I have is a full 3" with a Magnaflow at the end and a magnaflow as a resonator. Would it be recommended to upgrade to a full 4" exhaust? I know it would not hurt and actually it will gain some power but since it is pretty expensive and some people are still running the 3" with cars in the mid 400's whp I just wanted to make sure the expense was justified.
Also the intercooler even though is way bigger than the stock one, still seems to be more of a bottleneck than anything else? It does have the ducting even though the intake section of the duct is pretty small. I will post a picture to show the size of the intercooler.
Has anybody played with adding a fan to the intercooler to aid in the cooling efficiency?
I am planning on going up to 22 psi as soon as I sort this problems out and trying to reach the 500 whp mark but so far with this intercooler, the temperatures climb into the 150 degrees mark so we dont want to keep trying until it gets resolved.
Thank you for your insights...
Leo

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

No comment on the intercooler...but you absolutely need to address those AIT's. 150F is pretty damn hot, dangerously hot. Whether you change intercoolers or play with the AI to further cool the intake charge - it needs to be fixed.

As for the exhaust - sure, you can go 4". However, you should know that I've pushed a 3" system QUITE far in terms of power. In fact, if memory serves me correctly J-rat on the forum here runs an oldschool (2.5"??) RB exhaust system and put out 550whp this year. So clearly, not a real limitation.......presuming one of your muffler's isn't blown out/clogged etc.

Cute FD though

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Thank you for the response classicauto. Thats what I thought, that the 4 inches will not hurt of course but maybe the 3" is not a big restriction either. Now for the fact that it increased almost 30 whp after removing it, will that indicate that there is something wrong with my exhaust (clogged for example) or is it normal to gain that much after removing it? I have asked some people but no one seems to know how much of a gain is normal after removing the exhaust.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Well, the only vehicle's ive seen on a dyno that have done a pull, removed (some) exhaust, and ran again to see results - were N/A engines.............and they lost power (running full exhaust vs. only headers). I imgaine it had alot to do with scavenging etc.

With that said - I have no idea what would be normal for your situation.


But a few questions:

"when they removed the intercooler"

They replaced it with _____________ ?


"when they removed the exhaust"

They replaced it with _______________?

"when they took the water/meth out"

They just turned it off, correct?


Also - how much injectant (water/meth) are you spraying and where is it placed? (can't see a nozzle in the pics)

If you are logging or viewing EGT's, did you notice a large difference with the exhaust on vs. it being off? If so, what were the particulars (EGT, probe location etc)

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, sounds like the IC is bad news. That should be addressed first. As far as the exhaust, you dont need 4".

Sounds like the meth/water is really helping with the temps, but they shouldnt be that high, especially with an IC that size.

Carpenter

You don't need to have a 4" exhaust, to make the power your looking for.

Classicauto, has some very good questions.

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

OK when they removed the intercooler, they just bypassed the intercooler with other piping.
When they removed the exhaust, they only left the DP from what they told me, nothing else.
When they disconnected the Water/meth injection, they just turned it off. The size of the injectors are the 2 bigger ones that came stock with the kit that are 1.00 mm and 0.9 mm. They are placed before the throttle body after the last coupler before the elbow on the Greddy pipe. They are on the outside of the pipe so we can not see them on the pictures. They were running around 70% of the max flow of the injectors but to be honest I dont remember if that was when they were pushing 20 psi originally or at 15 psi. We are using 50/50 water/meth. As for the rate of Auxiliary injection vs fuel injection, I have to ask.
Unfortunately I dont have an EGT sensor yet, I am in the way of getting one but it was not recorded.
Thanks guys, I will ask the guys in the shop about the rate and flow used on the water/meth.
Leo

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Now does someone know of the benefits of adding a cooling fan to the intercooler? Since the main problem I see with SMIC is that the inlet section of the ducting is very small (besides being in the hot area of the engine that can be address somewhat with adding a vented hood). So that could be helped a lot with a fan that could help it suck some more air right?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

A fan should help sure.......and I have to mention that I thought originally you said approaching 180F, 150 isn't actually all that hot (reading comprehension FTW). The FD with a SMIC and GT35R that runs on the track around me sits at 60C (about 140F) running full out on the track.

To me, there's alot about this whole thing that sounds out, but I think the fact that (accordingto the shop ) power went up without the intercooler AT ALL is really whacky and would indicate you've got some type of small animal lodged in its core

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

YES Thats what I was asking as a joke to the guys. Maybe they left the car outside for too long and a rat made a little nest inside
They say they checked as good as possible with some lights to see if there was an obvious obstruction in it but couldn't see anything wrong.
Well will have to check it out by myself when the car is back in my possession. It sucks to have the car in a shop too far from your house

Carpenter

Try a shop vac on the IC. This should give you an idea of flow. (disconnect both hoses)
As for a fan. Do you plan on tracking the car? Sometimes, fans can cause more of a flow problem. (restricts the amount of air passing in, then out.) Parked in stop and go traffic, then it might bring down the temps.

At 22 psi of boost, what fuel will you be using?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Maybe it's time for a second opinion.....

Smitter

320rwhp on a mustang dyno isnt all that low is it?
i thought the mustang read the lowest amount?

IMO your intercooler is too small for a car making that amount of power

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

You have to remember that I am using 50/50 water/meth injection, I can use 93 pump gas at 22 psi. But I will be using the car at 17 psi normally and have a second boost setting of 22 psi just in case. This auxiliary injection has all the fail-safes possible. (still is not 100% safe but...)
As for the Mustang Dyno, yes it reads between 10 to 20% less than the Dynojet or Dynapack as for what I have read. So I would be making at the most 380 whp on Dynojet. Its not too bad but since I am running auxiliary injection, I should be able to get close to 420 whp at 15 psi.
Yes I agree that the intercooler is a little small for this application but it still should lower the temps specially when running only 15 psi and give some whp gains, which is not doing.
And I will try the vacuum idea, it may work I may get a raccoon out of the intercooler
Thanks guys.

Smitter

^^
wouldnt u guys agree, that a IC is gonna do next to nothing when a car is strapped to a dyno, even if u have a couple fans blowing through it?????

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Seems a little low from my experience with my GT3574. I made 350@15psi (on a mustang ego buster ) but only revving to 6K.......and only making 15 psi by nearly the end of the run (chewed up turbine)

Plus I was tuning it, and am no master tuna. So for a shop, and a problem free (in regards to RPM limits and proper spool up) FD, 30whp less then my results is a low number

The second to last time I was at the dyno, we went around with a infared thermometer (one of those laser dealies) and checked temps of various things: air filter, fuel rail, manifolds etc. Even with a small cage fan feeding the inlet of my bumper, my intercooler was still "working". I don't recall specific numbers but there was indeed a large temp drop on the dyno between the inlet and outlet sides of the intercooler.

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Yes, I think you are partially right there because there is no way for the fans to replicate the real thing. But how come some people like Howard Coleman gets almost 200 degrees AIT reduction on the Dyno with his SMIC. Agreed his intercooler is a Large M2 I think so its bigger than mine but still... And like him, I have see a few more that state the same. Unless all the measurements they took were not on the Dyno?
Its weird. And by the way, also I will be driving the car mostly on the streets, its my daily driver. So maybe the fan could help.
Leo

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Thats funny classicauto I was about to ask you for your dyno results since I saw you had the same turbo

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Classicauto What kind of intercooler are you running? And are you running auxiliary injection?

Smitter

a large smic like the m2 or pettit is nearly double the size of your IC, the pfs is a really small unit, especially compared to what everyone else uses with those power goals.

maybe u just need to be a little more aggresive with the tune aswell, get Classic to tuner up for u

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Yes, I am playing with the idea of getting another intercooler but since they are very expensive, I think I have to stick with what I have for now, try to tune it as right as possible and then as soon as I can get a better one, specially that for those I also have to relocate the battery. It would be a nice comparison after I do it though.
And I would give the car to classicauto to tune if he wasnt 2500 miles away from me

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

The Godspeed SMIC for the FD. But my car is an FC....I modified the end tank design slightly to be used in my car, but the core is the same.

I run a snowperformance kit and play around with nozzle sizes...but when I made the 350 I talked about earlier I was running the 375cc nozzle, between IC and TB. I also usually only run water, but had a small amount of windshield washer fluid in the tank that day because it was the end of the season and temps were hovering around freezing.

My Intercooler:

Carpenter

Just think what the inside temps would be.

lzamboni

iTrader: (8)

Holy crap!! That SMIC is bigger than most FMIC! I would like to see how it fits on the FD, if there are too many changes you have to do to mount it.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I've got an FD here with a similar sized SMIC....I'll snap a pic for you later on.