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20b efr 9180 question

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Old 12-17-17, 04:02 PM
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20b efr 9180 question

i have a fd3s with a 20b bridgeport
the turbo currently on the car is a garret gt4202r 1.01 ar

this is to laggy in my opinion.

i wonder how the 9180 would differ from te garret. Annyone running an efr 9180 1.01 v band tial exaust housing?

my goal is 700 hp, it will do 730 whp max on a rotary, so 700 is pushing it.
also, how will my ports effect spoll/ bottom end power?

i want the response of a shotgun ;-)
i am going to use the car for drifting, time attac, and a few drag events

maybe somone is running this combo and could give som perspective on the case?
this is also posted in the 20b section, but this is maybe a better place to ask single questions.

- Andreas
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Old 12-18-17, 12:50 AM
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I'm running a 9180 1.05ar T4 on my stock port 20B. Very responsive but i doubt it will flow enough without overspeeding the turbo. I'm only running 13psi but imagine it will run out in the low 20's

Maybe on a higher reading dyno it would hit your number

https://youtu.be/jtQv2jdY7iI
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Old 12-18-17, 01:24 PM
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Thank you for the reply.

95 lbs/min will make 950/1,3 = 730,8 rotary rwhp. 700 hp needs 91 lbs/min.
there are people making 900+ piston hp with this turbo, so 91 lbs/ min, should be possible.

is my math wrong some how?
i will inject destilled water 200cc/ min, into the air filter, to try and reach as far to the right side of the compressor map as possible.
also 800cc of water is available in the elbow to cool combustion.

this wil be on pump fuel

when people experiment with the 9180 on 13b, the 1,45 a/r is to laggy,
can i make this power on 1.01 a/r or do i need the 1.45 on a 20b?
What exaust housing will be the best for this application?
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Old 12-18-17, 02:26 PM
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It's not so much your math is wrong, but chasing a number can be a dangerous game on some Dyno's. We use a Dyno Dynamics which often read lower, and we are at around 3300ft elevation which isn't helping. I have lots of information on my setup, but unfortunately I cheaped out and didn't do exhaust back pressure. I may add that next year and see how the 1.05AR housing actually flows. My manifold is also not the greatest, but I do have pretty decent boost control with a single TiAL MVS-A Wastegate. I think I went with a 7 psi Spring and running 0 wastegate it does 9psi and creeps to 11psi @ 8000rpm.

I can tell you that a properly built 9180 Supra running all out only did 680 whp on our dyno, anything past that and the turbocharger was at maximum speed. We had all the data we could want including EGT, Exhaust back pressure, and turbo speed.

That said the same car on a different dyno, or even different tires can produce a different number.
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Old 12-18-17, 07:19 PM
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while there could be many contributing items to your "lag" i suspect that your ports are at the top of your list. bridgeports trade low/mid power for high rpm power due to the very significant overlap.

also a major factor is the GT4202.

a really good example of how far turbos have come recently is a comparison between your turbo and and the EFR 9180 as they both do 95 pounds per minute.

average compressor area
GT4202r 9.7 square inches
EFR 9180 7.8 square inches

average turbine area

GT4202r 7.5 sq inches
EFR 9180 7.18 sq inches

both are close re Trim favoring mid range.

the EFR9180 hotside is 5% less size and 40% lighter due to the titanium aluminide construction so is 57% of the mass of the 4202.

nevertheless, i would spend a bunch of time researching whether the 9180 would be the right turbo for you IF you are going to be running it very close to max output as it is not to be run above 116,000 rpm as the wheel is bonded/locked to the main shaft. BW is very cautionary re a 116,000 limit. since you have a 3 rotor it would not be hard to overspeed the turbo. over 100 hp transfers thru this connection at high boost.

if you are drifting and running at 700 my advice would be to look elsewhere for a turbo.
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Old 12-18-17, 09:33 PM
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Pretty sure I have seen feedback on different forums or facebook of rotary users who have pushed the big efr and losts bits of turbine when not monitoring shaft speeds. Unless you are going to run a turbine speed sensor and integrate it with ecu wastegate control you are probably safer with a BW SXE as they seem to be more tolerant and the biggest 300 series has a bit more in it than the efr.

a big bridge isn't going to be punchy down low. I'd say you probably have more overlap, later port close and lower port velocity than you could get away with for response if running WI on boost with you power target if your aim is boost threshold/broader torque band.

something like 15% difference between DD/Mainline and dynojet figures you need to be aware of too.
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Old 12-19-17, 10:27 AM
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The SXE 369 may be a good choice for you. Just a hair larger than the 9180 but a little more robust. You will lose some spool and transient response but gain some top end and less dangerous to overspeed.

On my stock port 20B with the 9180 off the top of my head I was running 90-95,000rpm @ 13 psi. Still room to go, but I imagine low 20's would top out speed.
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Old 12-20-17, 12:55 PM
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Then i will have to run boost limitations, to keep the shaft speed under 116k.
a local turbo dealer use the ecu to open the wastegate if shaft speed reaches 115k.
how do i do this with my vipec v88?
he gave me a great deal for a 9180 with 1.16 a/r tial housing.
the offers only stands for a few days.
i can get my choise of housing, but dont know what is the best fit.
what a/r do i buy?
i want power as early as possible, and be able to keep it til at least 7000 rpm
the tial housings come in 1.01 1.16 1.32

the smalest housing able too max out the turbo inn the right rpm range.
full boost before 3000 would be awsome

thank you all wery much for your input.

Last edited by Auning; 12-20-17 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 12-20-17, 04:06 PM
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i have had my V88 since 2013 and LOVE it. compared to the newer ECUs it is still really good. i suggest you post on the V88 Forum and you should receive a helpful answer almost immediately as that is my experience.

ViPEC V Series - Link Engine Management


as to hotside... i don't have lots of 3 rotor experience so i will defer to someone more knowledgable.
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Old 12-21-17, 10:15 AM
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I will share the results on this one( should be on the dyno after new years);


It will be going for the max power the turbo will make.
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Old 12-24-17, 04:53 PM
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Just throwing this out there, but I believe the usage of a 1.45 A/R EFR 9174 would help your flow figures.

I went to SEMA with BorgWarner, not going to get into details, but the 9174 is underrated for a bunch of marketing reasons. Essentially you get more RPM on the same compressor which equates to more lbs/min of airflow. 125k RPM vs. 116k RPM, which is going to net you around 100 lbs/min. Using the 1.45 A/R turbine housing in EWG configuration allows for that 74mm turbine to really work well for you. Build a 4" downpipe to full exhaust and you'll be set.
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Old 12-26-17, 06:59 AM
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Interesting.

the 9174 will loose some spool to the 9180, but on a 20b maybe not much.
how will transient respons be with the 1.45 a/r?
1,45 ar is big, and since i have a 20b, the best would be a tial v band housing.
the tial exaust housing only goes up to 1.32 a/r ish.
these turbo's only comes in t4 devided as far as a know, and that would not suit my application.
i have a complete 4" exaust, fuel, and everything needed to make alot of power.

so 9174 1.32 tial housing may be my best option?

-Auning

Last edited by Auning; 12-26-17 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 12-27-17, 02:58 AM
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Been there...

I have the sxe369 on a mild port 20B. Had a 1.00 exhaust housing, changed to a 1.10 (the biggest you can get for sxe)...both too small and choke the 20B...

I'd go a tial if you want to stick to the BW.. my next move...or step it up to a sxe400....
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Old 01-01-18, 11:47 PM
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Although I love BW and the EFR. A 9180 on a 20B for anything else but a direct replacement to simplify the OEM forced induction just isn't going to be very favorable. It'll choke up the 3 rotor with anything past 550. If you wanted a killer 500WHP 20B set up....and that's all you wanted. Then you'd have it with a 9180. But it just doesn't breath well enough for 550 and up. Some people might make more....But they're pushing it with backpressure and higher EGT's. Go bigger my man!...or go with (2) =-)
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Old 01-01-18, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by stokrx View Post
Been there...

I have the sxe369 on a mild port 20B. Had a 1.00 exhaust housing, changed to a 1.10 (the biggest you can get for sxe)...both too small and choke the 20B...

I'd go a tial if you want to stick to the BW.. my next move...or step it up to a sxe400....
Yup!!! There you go! Speaks from Experience!
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Old 01-03-18, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mannykiller View Post
Although I love BW and the EFR. A 9180 on a 20B for anything else but a direct replacement to simplify the OEM forced induction just isn't going to be very favorable. It'll choke up the 3 rotor with anything past 550. If you wanted a killer 500WHP 20B set up....and that's all you wanted. Then you'd have it with a 9180. But it just doesn't breath well enough for 550 and up. Some people might make more....But they're pushing it with backpressure and higher EGT's. Go bigger my man!...or go with (2) =-)
You want a modern/old-school solution to this issue?


This is essentially what I'll be building off of my custom turbo kit. Rotary Stepper Motor controlled, 12V Electronic Wastegate. A 12V Feedback Linear Actuator works as well, and can EASILY supply the pressure your wastegate flapper needs to eliminate any issues with backpressure.

To each their own. I'd expect 700whp easily out of this combination, yet it'd rip on the bottom end like a 7670 due to the added displacement of the 20b.

The REAL ideal turbo for this setup is what I sold to James. S472SX-E.
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Old 01-04-18, 12:31 PM
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I do not have a lot of room in my engine bay. The v mount takes a lot of space.
thats is why 9180 is as big as i can go.
The gt4202r is a tight fit!
Attached Thumbnails 20b efr 9180 question-img_0758.jpg  
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Old 01-04-18, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Auning View Post
I do not have a lot of room in my engine bay. The v mount takes a lot of space.
thats is why 9180 is as big as i can go.
The gt4202r is a tight fit!
I love the fitment. Great work on ducting!
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Old 01-12-18, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Auning View Post
I do not have a lot of room in my engine bay. The v mount takes a lot of space.
thats is why 9180 is as big as i can go.
The gt4202r is a tight fit!
Hmmm...Sorry if I missed it....but You'd have to build another exhaust manifold either way if this is your set up above. If so....you can fit something much larger in there if you move the turbo up and forward...or even up. But it all depends on what you're willing to do. What Series Engine is this 20B again?
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Old 01-12-18, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
You want a modern/old-school solution to this issue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-vfCKfJub4

This is essentially what I'll be building off of my custom turbo kit. Rotary Stepper Motor controlled, 12V Electronic Wastegate. A 12V Feedback Linear Actuator works as well, and can EASILY supply the pressure your wastegate flapper needs to eliminate any issues with backpressure.

To each their own. I'd expect 700whp easily out of this combination, yet it'd rip on the bottom end like a 7670 due to the added displacement of the 20b.

The REAL ideal turbo for this setup is what I sold to James. S472SX-E.
That Above system might work. But the question is how well...and you'd be doing a lot of work and spending a ton of time and money to fix an issue you could avoid all together with a simple choice.
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Old 01-12-18, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mannykiller View Post
Hmmm...Sorry if I missed it....but You'd have to build another exhaust manifold either way if this is your set up above. If so....you can fit something much larger in there if you move the turbo up and forward...or even up. But it all depends on what you're willing to do. What Series Engine is this 20B again?
I think due to the length of the EFR Turbo setup and where it's added vs. this GT42, he would just need to modify the downpipe, not the entire manifold for excellent fitment.

In regards to the Backpressure "Issue", here was part of my solution:





Not saying this is the solution to anyone else, but the idea is simple.
  • Larger Divided Wastegates (not just hogging out the 42mm divided into a single OPEN style on the EFR 0.92 IWG Turbine Housing)
  • Separate the Wastegate and Main Turbine Flow
  • Design a System to Control Wastegate Pressure BETTER than a Mechanical Spring for a Variety of Pressures (Electric w/ Extra Sensitivity at the beginning/end of stroke or the usage of a stepper motor - rotation)
  • Realize that Backpressure isn't a huge issue, you just need to know how to control the wastegate actuator better
  • Be aware of Turbo Surge = Fitting an EFR Speed Sensor and inputting the correct values (ie. EFR9174 = 7 Compressor Blades, 1833Hz, 125k RPM Warning)
  • By seeing where the turbo lands on your compressor map, you can "aim" the turbo to it's most efficient islands by intelligent boost control, essentially giving you the best power:lifespan ratio
Oops, I just realized you meant 1.45 A/R EWG... So pretty much ignore all of this internally gated crap.

1.45 A/R EWG:




vs.

AirWerks S472SX-E w/ 1.25 A/R (my favorite choice for 20B Applications)



Essentially we're talking about 5.82" vs. 6.48" (0.66" Larger Frontal Area) and of course landing closer to the motor w/ the larger compressor cover. I HATE how BorgWarner refuses to dimension these properly, so I'd have to go extract dimensions for you to be sure.

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Old 01-12-18, 07:15 PM
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I really like EFRs but I agree with the above, for your power level you would be close to over-speeding the turbo which EFRs can't withstand. Now only if they had a bigger EFR...

For now I agree the S472SX-E is a good choice, GTX4202R would be good too. How much power do you make now? Maybe you don't really need that much and could get better response with a smaller turbo yet ( with a significant AR of course). I also agree that your bridge port isn't helping things, especially with a large turbo.

For everything but maybe drag racing, I'm guessing you might be happier with 600 WHP but much quicker response.
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Old 01-12-18, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ITSWILL View Post
I really like EFRs but I agree with the above, for your power level you would be close to over-speeding the turbo which EFRs can't withstand. Now only if they had a bigger EFR...

For now I agree the S472SX-E is a good choice, GTX4202R would be good too. How much power do you make now? Maybe you don't really need that much and could get better response with a smaller turbo yet ( with a significant AR of course). I also agree that your bridge port isn't helping things, especially with a large turbo.

For everything but maybe drag racing, I'm guessing you might be happier with 600 WHP but much quicker response.
The S472SX-E should be easily 500 RPM earlier into boost, probably an upwards of 800 RPM, yet produce MORE peak power. It's lightyears ahead in technology. Something else that JUST debuted at SEMA 2017 was the S372SX-E, which actually would fit perfectly for this application. Totally forgot about it. There ya go, there's your answer bud! Along with the largest offering Turbine Housing of 1.00 A/R on it's 80mm Turbine Wheel, you have a pretty stout package for ultra-responsive 20Bness.



SEMA 2017: BorgWarner Releases S372 SXE Turbochargers

Pretty ******' awesome turbo. It's exactly what you're asking for.

**They're working out issues with EMAP on the S372SX-E and it might take a while. **

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Old 01-14-18, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mannykiller View Post
Hmmm...Sorry if I missed it....but You'd have to build another exhaust manifold either way if this is your set up above. If so....you can fit something much larger in there if you move the turbo up and forward...or even up. But it all depends on what you're willing to do. What Series Engine is this 20B again?
This was a a/b series engine, but after the 20b senter plate cracked on the dyno, all the plates got replaced with brand new ones.Its fully balanced, and bridge ported by a pro rotary builder.If i need to modify the exaust, so be it.If i could do it over i would have wanted good streetports, but i can not justify buying new plates.The goal of the car is to be a supra killer, and be competetive against 800-1000 hp supras in drifting and asfalt racing.If i go the 9180 route, witch will give me the easiest car to dive.I built a skyline with a rb26 and 8374. It was awsome. Lots of power always. Not like the gt35 it originaly had. It was low on power down low, but when the turbo came online it was all at once. Felt quick, but not the best drive.The sxe line is not ballbearing, wich im not a fan of. If i get the 9180 with 1.32 a/r i will have to limit power to a point were the turbo is safe speed wise.The gt4202 is a bit to ketchup like for my taste, nothing, nothing,nothing, a bit of power, and then Bang!I have another fd with a 13brew, and a brand new 8374 going on it. The 3 rotor is for racing 🙂
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Old 01-14-18, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Auning View Post
This was a a/b series engine, but after the 20b senter plate cracked on the dyno, all the plates got replaced with brand new ones.Its fully balanced, and bridge ported by a pro rotary builder.If i need to modify the exaust, so be it.If i could do it over i would have wanted good streetports, but i can not justify buying new plates.The goal of the car is to be a supra killer, and be competetive against 800-1000 hp supras in drifting and asfalt racing.If i go the 9180 route, witch will give me the easiest car to dive.I built a skyline with a rb26 and 8374. It was awsome. Lots of power always. Not like the gt35 it originaly had. It was low on power down low, but when the turbo came online it was all at once. Felt quick, but not the best drive.The sxe line is not ballbearing, wich im not a fan of. If i get the 9180 with 1.32 a/r i will have to limit power to a point were the turbo is safe speed wise.The gt4202 is a bit to ketchup like for my taste, nothing, nothing,nothing, a bit of power, and then Bang!I have another fd with a 13brew, and a brand new 8374 going on it. The 3 rotor is for racing 🙂
I personally avoid the TiAL Turbine Housings and would suggest the 1.45 A/R EWG from BorgWarner Direct.

You can find it here:
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...rbine-housing/

Or just order it with the turbo.
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