17psi, here i come
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Bimingham, AL
Originally posted by HeatTreated
I have a backup set of stock twins so I too had mine tuned by Steve for about 17psi.
My twins had been in great condition with no shaft play and no oil coming from them.
After the street tune session, I got home and there was gobs of oil in the tubes, and I mean alot. I had to pull the motor for other reasons and and inspected everything and was definetly from the turbos.
Id say for quick 1/4 burst of 17psi, maybe not so bad. But a few hwy runs like that and those little guys are gonna be toast soon.
I have a backup set of stock twins so I too had mine tuned by Steve for about 17psi.
My twins had been in great condition with no shaft play and no oil coming from them.
After the street tune session, I got home and there was gobs of oil in the tubes, and I mean alot. I had to pull the motor for other reasons and and inspected everything and was definetly from the turbos.
Id say for quick 1/4 burst of 17psi, maybe not so bad. But a few hwy runs like that and those little guys are gonna be toast soon.
What IC were you running at the time?
STEPHEN
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,014
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From: CT
this should get good.
its great to see peoples agendas. On one side we have the haters who want KD to fail cause they are either competitors or have had bad dealings in the past. On the other side we have the customers who want the product so bad that they are blind to everything else.
I think KD should chime in.We have been in the dark long enough. We could have some sort of public release of info without destroying the ability to patten or causing any ill effects on their development of the item.
its great to see peoples agendas. On one side we have the haters who want KD to fail cause they are either competitors or have had bad dealings in the past. On the other side we have the customers who want the product so bad that they are blind to everything else.
I think KD should chime in.We have been in the dark long enough. We could have some sort of public release of info without destroying the ability to patten or causing any ill effects on their development of the item.
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,413
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From: Bimingham, AL
Well, I'm kinda in the middle. I've never had a dealing with them so I feel kinda "open" to the idea. The only thing is I am sceptical as far as it being a "anti-detonation device". I think the language choosen for the name is a little bold, I feel like it was named that so it would cause a big splash in the community....which is exactly what it did.
So far I'm not a believer in the device.....how could I be when I dont even know what its doing lol.
I know Dave is a great mechanic but I've heard he is lacking in his tuning abilities, maybe his customers need this device.
I basically view this as a device similar to how everyone git hyped up about the J&S years ago and all went out buying it. I'm not saying they do they same thing just that they are marketed similarly and will probably end up with a similar fate.
Neverknow though, I'm keeping my mind open and I'll really make up my mind when I find out what the device does.
STEPHEN
So far I'm not a believer in the device.....how could I be when I dont even know what its doing lol.
I know Dave is a great mechanic but I've heard he is lacking in his tuning abilities, maybe his customers need this device.
I basically view this as a device similar to how everyone git hyped up about the J&S years ago and all went out buying it. I'm not saying they do they same thing just that they are marketed similarly and will probably end up with a similar fate.
Neverknow though, I'm keeping my mind open and I'll really make up my mind when I find out what the device does.
STEPHEN
3rd motors a charm I hope
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,054
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From: Central New York
The device does not mess with tuning at all. The excessive heat would have been caused by doing figure eights for about a half an hour straight with only 1 oil cooler. I know what the decice is and i know what it does. If you want to know, go buy it and sign the non disclosure agreement. No he is not building my motor for free, but he is cutting me a good deal, because i am a little low on cash right this moment. I give them a lot of business so they are taking care of me.
Thread Starter
built my own engine
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,470
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From: Buckhead, Atlanta
my anti detonation device is a well setup car with steve kan's tuning, i don't really believe in a magic end-all solution to it
i don't even have a knock sensor
and how'd we get on this subject anyways?? 
i don't even have a knock sensor
and how'd we get on this subject anyways??
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From: IN
16 psi on '99 Type RS/RZ Twins
Here's my dyno plot of J-spec '99 Type RS/RZ twins.
No doubt, 17 psi might be doable with stock twins, but 403+ rwhp....might take a lot of tuning, and really lean AFRs?
FWIW, Good luck!
silver93, what would boost is the most efficient for the J-spec Type RS/RZ twins? The 16 psi was dyno peak rwhp test, but I'd like to leave my boost settings to run at the J-spec's efficiency peak. Thanks in advance for your answer.
I have just about every bolt-on you can add on my FD for power production (like 93BlackFD's car) with a GReddy 2-row FMIC.
No doubt, 17 psi might be doable with stock twins, but 403+ rwhp....might take a lot of tuning, and really lean AFRs?
FWIW, Good luck!
Originally posted by silver93
All turbochargers present compromises between flow capacity and turbo lag. The larger the turbo, the slower it is to spool, but the more air it can flow when up to speed. The FD's units were sized for maximum response while meeting the flow requirements of the engine at the targeted power level. Each compressor has an area of greatest efficiency (adiabatic), in which it can compress/flow a given volume of air per unit time without introducing excessive heat in the process. This is defined graphically by a compressor map, and is primarily a function of compressor design, size, and rotation speed. Increase flow to obtain more power on the FD by adding intake, exhaust, intercooler, etc.and you will rapidly find yourself outside the stock turbocharger's efficiency sweetspot, since the compressor must spin faster to maintain the same intake pressure. The main detriment in the 11-13 psi range is that the compressor outlet temps become extremely hot, on the order of 300F, which places additional thermal stress on the engine, and may increase detonation risk. Also, in sequential twin-turbo cars, the secondary unit is accelerated to a high speed in a closed circuit chamber (surge) to prevent a drop in compressor speed and flow at the switchover point when the compressor comes under load, which would cause a dip in power and torque (the famous dip we all notice in the dyno plots). This power dip, already slightly noticeable in stock cars, becomes much worse in modded cars, since the turbo is already operating at its pre-spin speed just to maintain a given level of boost, and becomes extremely resistant to overspeeding.
"Over 14 psi on sequential twin cars with fully open intake and exhaust, the stock turbos actually cause a restriction in the intake path which limit the effective power you can make. Can you upgrade to larger compressor wheels? Sure, but shaft failures often accompany this mod, because the stock shaft was not sized for that weight wheel. You can also clip the turbine wheels for better flow at high speed, but low speed response may be impacted. The switchover problem does not go away. "
There are three things that trade off against each other with a turbo. Lag, airflow (measured in CFM), and boost. You can improve any of these but the other two suffer. If you want to improve all three, then your turbo must work harder, which reduces its efficiency. This translates into increased temperature and more "effort" expended to produce a given amount of boost. Turbos have an efficiency range in which they work very well within certain boost and CFM parameters, but rapidly become very inefficient outside those parameters. Typically, a bigger turbo will have an efficiency range better suited to high boost, high flow.
All turbochargers present compromises between flow capacity and turbo lag. The larger the turbo, the slower it is to spool, but the more air it can flow when up to speed. The FD's units were sized for maximum response while meeting the flow requirements of the engine at the targeted power level. Each compressor has an area of greatest efficiency (adiabatic), in which it can compress/flow a given volume of air per unit time without introducing excessive heat in the process. This is defined graphically by a compressor map, and is primarily a function of compressor design, size, and rotation speed. Increase flow to obtain more power on the FD by adding intake, exhaust, intercooler, etc.and you will rapidly find yourself outside the stock turbocharger's efficiency sweetspot, since the compressor must spin faster to maintain the same intake pressure. The main detriment in the 11-13 psi range is that the compressor outlet temps become extremely hot, on the order of 300F, which places additional thermal stress on the engine, and may increase detonation risk. Also, in sequential twin-turbo cars, the secondary unit is accelerated to a high speed in a closed circuit chamber (surge) to prevent a drop in compressor speed and flow at the switchover point when the compressor comes under load, which would cause a dip in power and torque (the famous dip we all notice in the dyno plots). This power dip, already slightly noticeable in stock cars, becomes much worse in modded cars, since the turbo is already operating at its pre-spin speed just to maintain a given level of boost, and becomes extremely resistant to overspeeding.
"Over 14 psi on sequential twin cars with fully open intake and exhaust, the stock turbos actually cause a restriction in the intake path which limit the effective power you can make. Can you upgrade to larger compressor wheels? Sure, but shaft failures often accompany this mod, because the stock shaft was not sized for that weight wheel. You can also clip the turbine wheels for better flow at high speed, but low speed response may be impacted. The switchover problem does not go away. "
There are three things that trade off against each other with a turbo. Lag, airflow (measured in CFM), and boost. You can improve any of these but the other two suffer. If you want to improve all three, then your turbo must work harder, which reduces its efficiency. This translates into increased temperature and more "effort" expended to produce a given amount of boost. Turbos have an efficiency range in which they work very well within certain boost and CFM parameters, but rapidly become very inefficient outside those parameters. Typically, a bigger turbo will have an efficiency range better suited to high boost, high flow.
I have just about every bolt-on you can add on my FD for power production (like 93BlackFD's car) with a GReddy 2-row FMIC.
Last edited by SleepR1; Mar 30, 2004 at 11:45 AM.
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,413
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From: Bimingham, AL
Originally posted by fastcarfreak
The device does not mess with tuning at all. The excessive heat would have been caused by doing figure eights for about a half an hour straight with only 1 oil cooler. I know what the decice is and i know what it does. If you want to know, go buy it and sign the non disclosure agreement. No he is not building my motor for free, but he is cutting me a good deal, because i am a little low on cash right this moment. I give them a lot of business so they are taking care of me.
The device does not mess with tuning at all. The excessive heat would have been caused by doing figure eights for about a half an hour straight with only 1 oil cooler. I know what the decice is and i know what it does. If you want to know, go buy it and sign the non disclosure agreement. No he is not building my motor for free, but he is cutting me a good deal, because i am a little low on cash right this moment. I give them a lot of business so they are taking care of me.
The device has to do SOMETHING to ward off detonation. My understanding is the device is electrical....maybe thats incorrect though. If it is electrical it would be hard to see how it can ward off detonation without affecting tuning
STEPHEN
Brian has my turbos
Non ported motor, non ported wastgate, all upgrades. Same as Brian's. It's all about the tuning.
Let the guy be. What's up with all the negative feedback. I ran mine 17 psi daily. the turbos did fine. So what if he blows his motor. It ain't yours.
People with FD should know that reliablility does not equal performance. If you can't afford to rebuild your motor from time to time, get rid of your car.
I get lots of customers all the time who drive very high end cars. The problem is they scrapped up every nickle and dime to get that car. When it comes to maintaning those cars, they can't do it. No friggin money! I tell people all the time, don' t buy a car if you can' t maintain that car.
If you have a FD, rebuilding the motor is part of maintenance. It's friggin 10 years old. You're trying to push double it's capacity on parts that are 10 years old. Think about it.
Perfect example: I have a customer who brought in their 7 last week with a blown motor. He want's to get rid of it because he can't afford the rebuild. These are the folks who argue against Brian.
I'm sure Brian cares if he blows his motor, but that's not the driving force that determines what he wants to do with his car.
I dont' take anybody's word for anything. When I was building my car, all the experts on the forum told me I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that. Well I did. Brian's going to do the same. That's my .02 cents.
Let the guy be. What's up with all the negative feedback. I ran mine 17 psi daily. the turbos did fine. So what if he blows his motor. It ain't yours.
People with FD should know that reliablility does not equal performance. If you can't afford to rebuild your motor from time to time, get rid of your car.
I get lots of customers all the time who drive very high end cars. The problem is they scrapped up every nickle and dime to get that car. When it comes to maintaning those cars, they can't do it. No friggin money! I tell people all the time, don' t buy a car if you can' t maintain that car.
If you have a FD, rebuilding the motor is part of maintenance. It's friggin 10 years old. You're trying to push double it's capacity on parts that are 10 years old. Think about it.
Perfect example: I have a customer who brought in their 7 last week with a blown motor. He want's to get rid of it because he can't afford the rebuild. These are the folks who argue against Brian.
I'm sure Brian cares if he blows his motor, but that's not the driving force that determines what he wants to do with his car.
I dont' take anybody's word for anything. When I was building my car, all the experts on the forum told me I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that. Well I did. Brian's going to do the same. That's my .02 cents.
3rd motors a charm I hope
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,054
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From: Central New York
What makes you think that the device is electrical? You see this is where everybody misinterprets what things are, they just assume and are usually incorrect. Dont always listen to other peoples assumptions.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,023
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From: Edwards, CA
Originally posted by fastcarfreak
yeah but you generally get an increase in torque equal to loss in hp. I guess it may balance out. i made over 400 rwhp and 350 rwtq on stock motor at 19 psi with very conservative tuning in 3rd gear (hp would be up a little if dynoed in 4th). I was extremely happy and i usually only drive around on 13 psi anyways. I will let everyone know the numbers i am gonna be making with my street ported motor. Im excited to see what i can run at the strip without getting kicked out for not having a cage.
Adam
yeah but you generally get an increase in torque equal to loss in hp. I guess it may balance out. i made over 400 rwhp and 350 rwtq on stock motor at 19 psi with very conservative tuning in 3rd gear (hp would be up a little if dynoed in 4th). I was extremely happy and i usually only drive around on 13 psi anyways. I will let everyone know the numbers i am gonna be making with my street ported motor. Im excited to see what i can run at the strip without getting kicked out for not having a cage.
Adam
It's more accurate to say that the area of high torque is shifted lower in the rpm range.
hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252
hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: winston-salem, nc
Re: 16 psi on '99 Type RS/RZ Twins
Originally posted by SleepR1
silver93, what would boost is the most efficient for the J-spec Type RS/RZ twins? The 16 psi was dyno peak rwhp test, but I'd like to leave my boost settings to run at the J-spec's efficiency peak. Thanks in advance for your answer.
I have just about every bolt-on you can add on my FD for power production (like 93BlackFD's car) with a GReddy 2-row FMIC.
silver93, what would boost is the most efficient for the J-spec Type RS/RZ twins? The 16 psi was dyno peak rwhp test, but I'd like to leave my boost settings to run at the J-spec's efficiency peak. Thanks in advance for your answer.
I have just about every bolt-on you can add on my FD for power production (like 93BlackFD's car) with a GReddy 2-row FMIC.
Yeah, you could put 5000 cc injectors in, and push 50 pounds of boost through the turbos and make power - right? remember, my initial post was "i thought the efficiency of stock turbos dropped after 15 psi".
If you have a test, you can stay up for 48 hours without sleep studying for it, sure - but at hour 38, the amount you learn is not going to be anywhere near what you learn at hour 5.
what's the percent increase in HP change from 5psi to 10psi, for ex., versus the percent increase in HP from 12 to 17 psi.? that's what I am talking about when i refer to efficiency.
development
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 7
From: Lafayette, LA
Originally posted by SleepR1
Nice dyno results. Are these stock twins with stock ported motor?
Nice dyno results. Are these stock twins with stock ported motor?
Those are the twins on Brian's car...I raped a supercharged IS300 in his car.
"Stock twins, riiiiight"
GET'EM!!!!!
Last edited by dubulup; Mar 30, 2004 at 01:03 PM.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,483
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From: US
I think chuck with rotaryextreme dynoed his or one of his customer car up to 400 rwhp with stock twins.
It's possible.. i would love to try it once i get pfc...
are ya running non seq?
R71.. were u at nopi about 2 yrs ago with ur fd?
19 inch blitz wheels?
It's possible.. i would love to try it once i get pfc...
are ya running non seq?
R71.. were u at nopi about 2 yrs ago with ur fd?
19 inch blitz wheels?
Thread Starter
built my own engine
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,470
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From: Buckhead, Atlanta
Re: Re: 16 psi on '99 Type RS/RZ Twins
Originally posted by silver93
what's the percent increase in HP change from 5psi to 10psi, for ex., versus the percent increase in HP from 12 to 17 psi.? that's what I am talking about when i refer to efficiency.
what's the percent increase in HP change from 5psi to 10psi, for ex., versus the percent increase in HP from 12 to 17 psi.? that's what I am talking about when i refer to efficiency.
then shutup and watch us do it
PV = nRT
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,250
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From: New Zealand (was California)
See, you guys are making this into some kind of mission to "demonstrate."
It's been DONE already.
How many times must we make the point that stock twins are not the place to go if you want reliable low charge-temp CFMs!
Yes, I *can* take off my lugnuts with vise grips - but it's a much better idea to use a socket/wrench.
It's been DONE already.
How many times must we make the point that stock twins are not the place to go if you want reliable low charge-temp CFMs!
Yes, I *can* take off my lugnuts with vise grips - but it's a much better idea to use a socket/wrench.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Edwards, CA
Charge temps are 10-20 F higher at 18 psi with the stockers vs a T-66/78/3540 coming out of a good intercooler. Temp is not the issue! Its the fact that the components are being exposed to 160-180k rpm vs 100k rpm with a single.
Senior Member
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From: winston-salem, nc
93BlackFD-
What should I watch you do? Run 17psi? 20? 30? you see, I don't care how much boost you run, or how much power you make, how many engines you can replace, how many spare turbos you have.
I made one statement, which clearly indicated if I was "misinformed" , for you to somehow indicate how. You first response was a smart *** one, and now you're just being an *** - and it makes you look like one.
You want me to tell you the percent difference? why, because you can't do the math? your 10 year old response indicates that to be the case. Do you even understand what I'm trying to say? Obviously you don't - or you wouldn't say "watch us!" like you're in a school yard taking a dare.
What should I watch you do? Run 17psi? 20? 30? you see, I don't care how much boost you run, or how much power you make, how many engines you can replace, how many spare turbos you have.
I made one statement, which clearly indicated if I was "misinformed" , for you to somehow indicate how. You first response was a smart *** one, and now you're just being an *** - and it makes you look like one.
You want me to tell you the percent difference? why, because you can't do the math? your 10 year old response indicates that to be the case. Do you even understand what I'm trying to say? Obviously you don't - or you wouldn't say "watch us!" like you're in a school yard taking a dare.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: winston-salem, nc
Originally posted by 93BlackFD
i'm proving it to myself, not the forum- i don't understand all of the negative hostility around here
i'm proving it to myself, not the forum- i don't understand all of the negative hostility around here
Thread Starter
built my own engine
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,470
Likes: 2
From: Buckhead, Atlanta
i guess i came off as an *******, sorry
i'm just sick of everyone trying to educate me, i didn't ask for help, i'm aware of what people claim the efficiency to be
damn, i also get like 10 PM's regarding this, and it's either, you can't do that, here's why, or can you tell me what i need to do, or do it for me
it gets old
-----anyways-----
the C2DI is in, and the install went smoothly, i can do a full write up now that it is in, and i can also say that i did bypass the ignitor
this is important news for some of you guys (like r71) who simply want one wiring harness in the engine bay, not a chassis, starter, ignition, engine, harness(s)
am going for a test drive in a few minutes
i'm just sick of everyone trying to educate me, i didn't ask for help, i'm aware of what people claim the efficiency to be
damn, i also get like 10 PM's regarding this, and it's either, you can't do that, here's why, or can you tell me what i need to do, or do it for me
it gets old
-----anyways-----
the C2DI is in, and the install went smoothly, i can do a full write up now that it is in, and i can also say that i did bypass the ignitor
this is important news for some of you guys (like r71) who simply want one wiring harness in the engine bay, not a chassis, starter, ignition, engine, harness(s)
am going for a test drive in a few minutes
Last edited by 93BlackFD; Mar 30, 2004 at 04:43 PM.