Apexi PowerFC Tuning by Steven Kan 12/01/12
11-27-12, 10:06 AM
#101
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Dyno Times: 9:30am until 7:30pm
Dyno Price: 700.00 divided by 5 people so 140.00 each
plus whatever you owe steven based on this:
Tuning costs:
$350 - Stock Turbo up to 12psi of boost (pump gas only) 1 map
$400 - Aftermarket Turbo up to 16psi of boost (pump gas only) 1 map
$450 - Aftermarket Turbo from 16psi - 25psi of boost (race gas and/or auxiliary injection only) 1 map
$600 - Aftermarket Turbo up to 25psi of boost (pump gas and race gas tune) 2 maps
Minus the deposit of 200.00
No checks PLEASE!
Schedule/Arrival Time
1. Peruvianrx7....................................... ................................9:30am till 11:20am ...(1hr & 50 min)
2. M104-AMG............................................... .................................11:20 till 1:10pm...(1hr & 50 min)
STEVEN KAN's LUNCH BREAK............................................. ........1:10 till 1:40pm...(30 minutes)
3. Alexsrx........................................... ........................................1:40 till 3:30pm...(1hr & 50 min)
4. lnbrown5981....................................... ...................................3:30 till 5:20pm...(1hr & 50 min)
5. SpdBrk767......................................... ......................................5:20 till 7:10pm...(1hr & 50 min)
Arrive 30 minutes prior to Dyno time. If you are not there on time someone else will be given your spot and you will be pushed to the next slot. The 140.00 dollars for the dyno will be given to the owner per person per dyno slot. Same thing with Steven's fees per person per dyno time. If for whatever reason this times do not work let me know ASAP so i can change them.
Alex
12-01-12, 09:11 PM
#105
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ill post a few pics/videos tomorrow.
I got 230 whp and 222tq on a 87k mile original engine w/12.9 psi a downpipe and a intake.
93 RX-7 Touring.
I got 230 whp and 222tq on a 87k mile original engine w/12.9 psi a downpipe and a intake.
93 RX-7 Touring.
12-02-12, 09:37 PM
#113
Steve mentioned that Mustang Dyno's read lower. Here's why, and why it's more "real world".
:-) neil
=====
Here's how I like to explain the difference. . .
DynoJets are inertia dynos, and have been around for years, much longer than any type of load cell dyno. Inertia dyno's work on the principle of the acceleration of a known mass over time. Their rollers are the known mass. Weighing in at over 2500lbs or so. Your car gets strapped down to the machine, and the dyno collects it's data. It is able to calculate horsepower by measuring the acceleration in rpm of the rollers in regards to RPM. This is why gearing can affect the dyno results, more on that in a bit. Now that the dyno has recorded the horsepower curve, it can take the integral of that curve and get the torque curve. Since the dyno’s power calculations are based on the acceleration of mass over time in regards to RPM, gearing is very important. Since a vehicle with a lower gear ratio can accelerate the mass to a higher speed using less engine RPM, it will show a higher horsepower number than a car with a higher gear ratio. If a car is able to accelerate the dyno’s rollers from 200rpm (roller) to 300rpm (roller)in 1500rpm (engine), then the dyno is going to record more power than a car that did that in 2000rpm (engine).
Now we go to Mustang dyno’s and other loaded dyno’s. Our Mustang MD-1100SE dyno’s rollers weigh 2560lbs. That is the actual mass of the rollers, much like the DynoJet. That’s about where all the similarities end. When we get a car on our dyno, we enter two constants for the dyno’s algorithms. One being the vehicle weight, the other being what’s called “Horsepower At 50mph”. This is a number that represents how much horsepower it takes for the vehicle to push the air to maintain 50mph. This is used as the aerodynamic force. Mustang dyno’s are also equipped with a eddy currant load cell. Think of a magnetic brake from a freight train. This magnetic brake can apply enough resistance to stall a big rig. Off one side of the eddy currant load cell, there is a cantilever with a 5volt reference load sensor (strain gage). As the rollers are spinning this load sensor is measuring the actual torque being applied. So as the rollers spin, the load sensor is measuring the force being applied, sending that information to the dyno computer, taking into account the two constants entered earlier, computing the amount of resistance needed to be applied to the rollers to load the car so that the force of the rollers resistance is as close to the force the car sees on the street. The dyno is then able to calculate the total force being applied to the rollers in torque, and then taking the derivative of that torque curve to arrive at the horsepower curve. Since torque is an actual force of nature, like gravity and electricity, it can be directly measured. Horsepower is an idea that was thought up by man, and cannot be directly measured, only calculated.
I like to state it like this. . . I start by asking how much your car weighs, lets say 3500lbs. Now you take your car and you make a make a WOT rip in your tallest non overdrive gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 3500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a DynoJet and you make a WOT in the same gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a Mustang dyno, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs. Plus the resistance being applied by the eddy current generator. We’ve seen anywhere for 470lbs of resistance to over 700lbs of resistance as measured in PAU force in the data logs. So which one is more accurate? Well they their both accurate. If a DynoJet dyno says you made 460rwhp, then you made 460rwhp. If a Mustang dyno says you made 460rwhp, you also made 460rwhp. Now which one of those numbers best represents what your car is doing when its on the street. That’s a different question.
The most important thing to remember is that a dyno is a testing tool. If the numbers keep increasing, then you’re doing the right thing. We try to look over at NET gain, instead of Peak HP numbers. A 30rwhp increase is a 30rwhp increase regardless of what dyno it is on.
Now I can address how to calculate the difference between one type of dyno and another. Simply put, you can’t. Because Mustang dyno’s have so many more variables, it’s not a simple percentage difference. We’ve had cars that made 422rwhp on our Dyno, two days later make 458rwhp on a DynoJet the next day. We’ve also had cars that made 550rwhp on our dyno, make 650+rwhp on a DynoJet a few days later at another shops Dyno Day. For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes. Now I don’t go around saying my car made 490rwhp, I say what it actually did with the correct information entered into the computer. It made 460rwhp. Now if I ever get a chance to take it on a DynoJet (which I plan to in the spring), I have no doubts it’ll be over 500rwhp. I know this based on airflow and fuel consumption on the data logs.
But since we’re asked this question constantly we're fairly conservative, and hence tell our customers that the difference is closer to 6-7%, but as you make more power, and the more your car weighs, the difference increases as well. You must remember, Dyno's regardless of the type are tuning tools, and are in no means meant to tell people how fast their car is. Now which one is more "real world" is a totally different question. I like to explain it like this..... If you drive your car in a situation in which you have no mass and you're in a vacuum, so basically if you do intergalactic racing in space, use a DynoJet. If your car sees gravity, and has an aerodynamic coefficient, and you race on a planet called Earth, then use a Mustang Dyno
__________________
Mike Hornback @ Straightline Performance
:-) neil
=====
Here's how I like to explain the difference. . .
DynoJets are inertia dynos, and have been around for years, much longer than any type of load cell dyno. Inertia dyno's work on the principle of the acceleration of a known mass over time. Their rollers are the known mass. Weighing in at over 2500lbs or so. Your car gets strapped down to the machine, and the dyno collects it's data. It is able to calculate horsepower by measuring the acceleration in rpm of the rollers in regards to RPM. This is why gearing can affect the dyno results, more on that in a bit. Now that the dyno has recorded the horsepower curve, it can take the integral of that curve and get the torque curve. Since the dyno’s power calculations are based on the acceleration of mass over time in regards to RPM, gearing is very important. Since a vehicle with a lower gear ratio can accelerate the mass to a higher speed using less engine RPM, it will show a higher horsepower number than a car with a higher gear ratio. If a car is able to accelerate the dyno’s rollers from 200rpm (roller) to 300rpm (roller)in 1500rpm (engine), then the dyno is going to record more power than a car that did that in 2000rpm (engine).
Now we go to Mustang dyno’s and other loaded dyno’s. Our Mustang MD-1100SE dyno’s rollers weigh 2560lbs. That is the actual mass of the rollers, much like the DynoJet. That’s about where all the similarities end. When we get a car on our dyno, we enter two constants for the dyno’s algorithms. One being the vehicle weight, the other being what’s called “Horsepower At 50mph”. This is a number that represents how much horsepower it takes for the vehicle to push the air to maintain 50mph. This is used as the aerodynamic force. Mustang dyno’s are also equipped with a eddy currant load cell. Think of a magnetic brake from a freight train. This magnetic brake can apply enough resistance to stall a big rig. Off one side of the eddy currant load cell, there is a cantilever with a 5volt reference load sensor (strain gage). As the rollers are spinning this load sensor is measuring the actual torque being applied. So as the rollers spin, the load sensor is measuring the force being applied, sending that information to the dyno computer, taking into account the two constants entered earlier, computing the amount of resistance needed to be applied to the rollers to load the car so that the force of the rollers resistance is as close to the force the car sees on the street. The dyno is then able to calculate the total force being applied to the rollers in torque, and then taking the derivative of that torque curve to arrive at the horsepower curve. Since torque is an actual force of nature, like gravity and electricity, it can be directly measured. Horsepower is an idea that was thought up by man, and cannot be directly measured, only calculated.
I like to state it like this. . . I start by asking how much your car weighs, lets say 3500lbs. Now you take your car and you make a make a WOT rip in your tallest non overdrive gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 3500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a DynoJet and you make a WOT in the same gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a Mustang dyno, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs. Plus the resistance being applied by the eddy current generator. We’ve seen anywhere for 470lbs of resistance to over 700lbs of resistance as measured in PAU force in the data logs. So which one is more accurate? Well they their both accurate. If a DynoJet dyno says you made 460rwhp, then you made 460rwhp. If a Mustang dyno says you made 460rwhp, you also made 460rwhp. Now which one of those numbers best represents what your car is doing when its on the street. That’s a different question.
The most important thing to remember is that a dyno is a testing tool. If the numbers keep increasing, then you’re doing the right thing. We try to look over at NET gain, instead of Peak HP numbers. A 30rwhp increase is a 30rwhp increase regardless of what dyno it is on.
Now I can address how to calculate the difference between one type of dyno and another. Simply put, you can’t. Because Mustang dyno’s have so many more variables, it’s not a simple percentage difference. We’ve had cars that made 422rwhp on our Dyno, two days later make 458rwhp on a DynoJet the next day. We’ve also had cars that made 550rwhp on our dyno, make 650+rwhp on a DynoJet a few days later at another shops Dyno Day. For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes. Now I don’t go around saying my car made 490rwhp, I say what it actually did with the correct information entered into the computer. It made 460rwhp. Now if I ever get a chance to take it on a DynoJet (which I plan to in the spring), I have no doubts it’ll be over 500rwhp. I know this based on airflow and fuel consumption on the data logs.
But since we’re asked this question constantly we're fairly conservative, and hence tell our customers that the difference is closer to 6-7%, but as you make more power, and the more your car weighs, the difference increases as well. You must remember, Dyno's regardless of the type are tuning tools, and are in no means meant to tell people how fast their car is. Now which one is more "real world" is a totally different question. I like to explain it like this..... If you drive your car in a situation in which you have no mass and you're in a vacuum, so basically if you do intergalactic racing in space, use a DynoJet. If your car sees gravity, and has an aerodynamic coefficient, and you race on a planet called Earth, then use a Mustang Dyno
__________________
Mike Hornback @ Straightline Performance
12-02-12, 11:39 PM
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Thanks Garret. Car is pulling great now and the power feels perfect for the street. Im definitely going to enjoy it for a while before I do anymore changes to it. It was a great meeting everybody and getting tips from everyone there. You definitely got me thinking about going with that gt35R. Oh by the way did you get to see how the last car ran?
12-02-12, 11:56 PM
#116
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Thanks Steve, I appreciate it. Been working on this car forever! Hey we missed you out there, we definitely could have used another person to help push the car up the ramp lol!!
Felipe, a million thanks for the pics, the help, and the ice bags bro!! We gotta hit the track next and see what the cars will do!
Felipe, a million thanks for the pics, the help, and the ice bags bro!! We gotta hit the track next and see what the cars will do!
12-03-12, 08:27 AM
#117
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The red Fd had some issues. I had to leave before they sorted out everything. Think the ait's were soaring on the pulls . Car was getting hot. The miata went on and sounded great! Didn't see the final tally though
12-03-12, 08:28 AM
#118
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Thanks Steve, I appreciate it. Been working on this car forever! Hey we missed you out there, we definitely could have used another person to help push the car up the ramp lol!!
Felipe, a million thanks for the pics, the help, and the ice bags bro!! We gotta hit the track next and see what the cars will do!
Felipe, a million thanks for the pics, the help, and the ice bags bro!! We gotta hit the track next and see what the cars will do!
oh well, next time.I'm down for some runs at the track too.
Let me know if you guys ahead out.
I've been wanting to take the family ride back out
Congrats on the tune!
.
12-03-12, 03:38 PM
#119
Just take the blue pill..
Hi everyone, it was definitely good fun hanging out with you all. That last FD was me. I wound up with 281whp and 267lb-ft at 15 psi. There were issues with the boost controller, I had the connections and settings configured incorrectly. Thanks to Garret and Steve we got it all corrected and had success after that. Steve was saying that my intercooler setup was too small and inefficient which explains why the AITs were shooting up, and also the fairly low HP numbers.
However, the whole Mustang vs. Dynojet thing makes some sense, as I got to drive in Garret's car earlier in the day, his car has a nearly identical setup, but with a much better intercooler, freer flowing exhaut and water injection. After driving my car home it didn't quite pull as hard as his, but it definitely did not feel 120+ hp less as indicated by the dyno chart.
Numbers aside, I am definitely happy, the power delivery is electric motor linear and butter smooth, driveability is outstanding even with the 850cc primaries. There are some issues I will address after the new year such as the intercooler and water injection.
The bad:
A transmission rebuild is going to be in my not so distant future. We discovered some pretty horrific bearing noises coming from the tranny at the end of the runs.
My sis-in law crunched the front end of my car while pulling out of the driveway the night I brought it home from the tuning session, so I will not be able to enjoy the new power for a few weeks while it is in the shop...
I am going to try to upload some footage of the runs by the end of the week
However, the whole Mustang vs. Dynojet thing makes some sense, as I got to drive in Garret's car earlier in the day, his car has a nearly identical setup, but with a much better intercooler, freer flowing exhaut and water injection. After driving my car home it didn't quite pull as hard as his, but it definitely did not feel 120+ hp less as indicated by the dyno chart.
Numbers aside, I am definitely happy, the power delivery is electric motor linear and butter smooth, driveability is outstanding even with the 850cc primaries. There are some issues I will address after the new year such as the intercooler and water injection.
The bad:
A transmission rebuild is going to be in my not so distant future. We discovered some pretty horrific bearing noises coming from the tranny at the end of the runs.
My sis-in law crunched the front end of my car while pulling out of the driveway the night I brought it home from the tuning session, so I will not be able to enjoy the new power for a few weeks while it is in the shop...
I am going to try to upload some footage of the runs by the end of the week
12-04-12, 08:57 AM
#122
silver ghost
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Sorry to hear about the damage. I'm sure the car feels fine on the street. The air temps are obviously going to be lower on the street while making more horsepower. Dinos are unforgiving on boosted rotaries due to the heat and low airflow.
12-04-12, 10:26 AM
#123
The bad:
A transmission rebuild is going to be in my not so distant future. We discovered some pretty horrific bearing noises coming from the tranny at the end of the runs.
My sis-in law crunched the front end of my car while pulling out of the driveway the night I brought it home from the tuning session, so I will not be able to enjoy the new power for a few weeks while it is in the shop...
I am going to try to upload some footage of the runs by the end of the week
As G said, during a tuning session it really doesn't matter what size IC you have, there is just not enough air to cool down those charge temps. When I tuned, we all had different sized intercoolers and we all saw the same temps up on the dyno. Water/meth is in my near future as well.
12-04-12, 06:21 PM
#125
Just take the blue pill..
Damn man, that sucks! Going from being so happy that the car is finally tuned to have something like that happen! Best of luck with the repairs!
As G said, during a tuning session it really doesn't matter what size IC you have, there is just not enough air to cool down those charge temps. When I tuned, we all had different sized intercoolers and we all saw the same temps up on the dyno. Water/meth is in my near future as well.
As G said, during a tuning session it really doesn't matter what size IC you have, there is just not enough air to cool down those charge temps. When I tuned, we all had different sized intercoolers and we all saw the same temps up on the dyno. Water/meth is in my near future as well.