Rtek Timing Maps
11-03-06, 07:41 AM
#28
I dont know a lot about engine tuning but here are my thoughts: 10psi, 3krpm, 5th gear is a lot more load than 10psi, 3krpm in 2nd. If it was a function of just boost and rpm, then the timing would be the same in these two situations. Is there a reason to retard timing under high loads vs low loads at the same boost/rpm levels?
11-03-06, 06:27 PM
#32
Bastardized RE AE
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Exactly, as it stands now the Rtek can only tune timing safely up to 7 PSI. I would say that is very limited. Unless this can be fixed I dont see how anyone can do any serious tuning with the Rtek.
So the question is, how are we going to fix this problem?
So the question is, how are we going to fix this problem?
11-05-06, 02:00 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by edomund
Is there a way we can make the timing tuning based on RPM & Boost or airflow vs. RPM & Load?
The stock load & RPM timing may be OK for a stock car because the car is tuned from the factory based on stock airflow maps, but when these change dramaticly (modified engine) it seems to me that the numbers are no longer applicable and the system of load based timing maps dont work.
The stock load & RPM timing may be OK for a stock car because the car is tuned from the factory based on stock airflow maps, but when these change dramaticly (modified engine) it seems to me that the numbers are no longer applicable and the system of load based timing maps dont work.
I'll make it selectable as well. Consider it in progress and it will be in the next release.
-Henrik
11-05-06, 02:11 PM
#34
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Great, this is very good to hear. Any estimated time on the next release?
So what your saying about the base map that will load with the PSI X RPM option will be quite rough and take a bit of tuning to set it up for your car, correct. If so this is not that big of a deal to me I can deal with having to tune the base map in order to gain the flexibilty of tuning by PSI instead of load. As long as the lower portion of the map (vacuum through 2-3 PSI) are close for drivability I can tune the higher boost. I had to completely change the stock map above 3 PSI anyway.
I can see how converting the load to vacuum/atmospheric pressure/boost pressure could be tricky. I guess you will have to look at logs and roughly intersect load and vaccum/boost to get the map to match up.
Thanks for the response,
Ed
So what your saying about the base map that will load with the PSI X RPM option will be quite rough and take a bit of tuning to set it up for your car, correct. If so this is not that big of a deal to me I can deal with having to tune the base map in order to gain the flexibilty of tuning by PSI instead of load. As long as the lower portion of the map (vacuum through 2-3 PSI) are close for drivability I can tune the higher boost. I had to completely change the stock map above 3 PSI anyway.
I can see how converting the load to vacuum/atmospheric pressure/boost pressure could be tricky. I guess you will have to look at logs and roughly intersect load and vaccum/boost to get the map to match up.
Thanks for the response,
Ed
11-06-06, 09:56 PM
#35
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This is good to hear Henrik. Edomund is right about dealing with a rough low end to have more tunability in the top end were it's needed.
Also how will the new release be put on to our ECU's? download or HW fix?
thanks
Also how will the new release be put on to our ECU's? download or HW fix?
thanks
11-07-06, 12:17 AM
#36
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My approach will be to convert the stock maps and then subtract 1 or 2 deg across the board to make it a little more conserative. It gets a bit tricky because the VE of the motor comes into play but I should have enough logs from my setup to do this. It should be fine under vacuum but will definately need tuning in boost if your not stock. Install is pretty easy, pop the old eprom out, plug the new one in.
-Henrik
-Henrik
11-30-06, 01:28 PM
#44
(Terraplane)
I've recently been reading this and other forums on timing try to get enough wisdom to tackle the timing maps.
I checked the stock map today and saw that it has negative split on the low load levels!
I read that negative split is a no no and now are very confused as to how to address the timing maps. Is there negative split in the stock timing maps? I'm reading the split range from -14 to 15+ PSI s/b 15-12.
It would be nice to have the maps fuel/timing to view or print out for reference.
I checked the stock map today and saw that it has negative split on the low load levels!
I read that negative split is a no no and now are very confused as to how to address the timing maps. Is there negative split in the stock timing maps? I'm reading the split range from -14 to 15+ PSI s/b 15-12.
It would be nice to have the maps fuel/timing to view or print out for reference.
12-03-06, 11:11 AM
#45
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********I checked the stock map today and saw that it has negative split on the low load levels!*****************8
Here's a graph showing negative timing greater than positive timing. It's in *negative* boost and it does not bother MAZDA so why should it bother me. In other words, they had more to lose than me by it being faulty, so I don't think it's faulty.
During steady cruise the lead/trail timing is usually with hardly any split whatsoever.
Here's a graph showing negative timing greater than positive timing. It's in *negative* boost and it does not bother MAZDA so why should it bother me. In other words, they had more to lose than me by it being faulty, so I don't think it's faulty.
During steady cruise the lead/trail timing is usually with hardly any split whatsoever.
12-03-06, 05:43 PM
#46
(Terraplane)
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm trying to apply some of the rules I've read on timing. Such as split range advance etc. Most of what I've read suggest to retard timing above 9psi ish to a particular ceiling and then blend that adjustment into the stock timing around 2-3 psi.
If Mazda has negative split in the lower load range then it must be ok. Its in the stock blend range anyway. I was just surprised to see negative timing in general based on what I've read.
So I made this spread sheet to get a grasp of the different info out there. It just a beginning so I'm open to comments.
I'm trying to apply some of the rules I've read on timing. Such as split range advance etc. Most of what I've read suggest to retard timing above 9psi ish to a particular ceiling and then blend that adjustment into the stock timing around 2-3 psi.
If Mazda has negative split in the lower load range then it must be ok. Its in the stock blend range anyway. I was just surprised to see negative timing in general based on what I've read.
So I made this spread sheet to get a grasp of the different info out there. It just a beginning so I'm open to comments.
12-03-06, 08:12 PM
#47
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I think your table looks pretty good. It looks similar to mine. I think your on the right track following that table.
But I didn't understand your shorthand on a couple things.
"10-12 Adv @6000 RPM w/0 split per Racing Beat" What does this mean?
& "10 psi s/b 15-17 for street port"
ed
But I didn't understand your shorthand on a couple things.
"10-12 Adv @6000 RPM w/0 split per Racing Beat" What does this mean?
& "10 psi s/b 15-17 for street port"
ed
12-04-06, 10:55 AM
#48
(Terraplane)
The new Racing Beat catalog has a section on Ignition/Timing as a tech tip. There is a small paragraph on page 31 that states. "When turbo charging or supercharginga 2-rotor engine capable of 300+ hp, we recommend both leading and trailing timing be set to 10 to 12 degrees total advance, at 6000 rpm, regardless of porting configuration."
That's quite a departure from some of the other timing tips I have read. Theyr'e saying 0 split at 6K!
"10 psi s/b 15-17 for street port" I got that from one of the forums. Its a benchmark for timing at 10 PSI, 15-17 total advance on a street port.
That's quite a departure from some of the other timing tips I have read. Theyr'e saying 0 split at 6K!
"10 psi s/b 15-17 for street port" I got that from one of the forums. Its a benchmark for timing at 10 PSI, 15-17 total advance on a street port.
01-20-07, 06:38 PM
#49
ok i finally started messing with the timing maps and noticed something weird. Did anyone else see the spikes at low load at higher rpms?? I found 3 spikes of 64.7 around that area, but all the cells around it were around 36. I have hardly even looked at the maps previously.
Also, when idling, the log shows "timing leading" at 20, "timing trailing" at 5, yet in the trailing map at 1krpm, ~no load, there is no "5," all the cells are in the 14's. Shouldnt it match what the log is showing?
and just to be sure, the numbers in the map are degrees advanced, right? so 30 would be more advanced than 20?
Also, when idling, the log shows "timing leading" at 20, "timing trailing" at 5, yet in the trailing map at 1krpm, ~no load, there is no "5," all the cells are in the 14's. Shouldnt it match what the log is showing?
and just to be sure, the numbers in the map are degrees advanced, right? so 30 would be more advanced than 20?
01-20-07, 08:14 PM
#50
(Terraplane)
Yes, I saw the spikes too! I thought my co-pilot was screwing with the Rtek. I smoothed them out but haven't messed with overall timing yet.
I can't imagine what the engine was doing while we were making pulls with the timing spiked like that. Those spikes could be trouble.
Idle timing is 5/20 ATDC at idle. If the cells in the map don't match the display then I'm really confused.
Mike, whats the deal with the spikes and the display vs. map?
One interesting thing I finally got right is the car now idles good at 800 +/- and settles in at -5/-20. I never rechecked timing once i got it started and found it was running +5L.
It is interesting to watch the timing slowly drop when you come to a light. Once you let off the gas, the timing returns to normal but at a gradual rate. Is that normal?
I can't imagine what the engine was doing while we were making pulls with the timing spiked like that. Those spikes could be trouble.
Idle timing is 5/20 ATDC at idle. If the cells in the map don't match the display then I'm really confused.
Mike, whats the deal with the spikes and the display vs. map?
One interesting thing I finally got right is the car now idles good at 800 +/- and settles in at -5/-20. I never rechecked timing once i got it started and found it was running +5L.
It is interesting to watch the timing slowly drop when you come to a light. Once you let off the gas, the timing returns to normal but at a gradual rate. Is that normal?