Rtek Timing Maps
09-29-06, 07:33 PM
#1
Bastardized RE AE
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Timing Maps
Can someone who has tuned there timing maps in the upper RPM's and boost load some maps?
These timing maps seem extremely aggressive in the upper RPM range under boost.
Most people I have talked to about timing use a basic rule of thumb of 15 degrees BTDC at 15PSI and then advance 1 degree per PSI decrease until around 2-3 PSI and then blend the stock map.
Also am I correct to assume that the value on the Rtek timing map is the actual timing in degrees BTDC?
Thanks,
Ed
These timing maps seem extremely aggressive in the upper RPM range under boost.
Most people I have talked to about timing use a basic rule of thumb of 15 degrees BTDC at 15PSI and then advance 1 degree per PSI decrease until around 2-3 PSI and then blend the stock map.
Also am I correct to assume that the value on the Rtek timing map is the actual timing in degrees BTDC?
Thanks,
Ed
10-01-06, 02:32 PM
#5
Bastardized RE AE
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Yeah I figured out how to log the load. It's just difficult to set the timing with a load # because most of the rules of thumb for tuning timing uses boost as a referance point.
Does anyone agree that the timing seems to aggressive as the RPM's rise under boost?
I am pretty sure this was the main factor that caused my motor to detonate and blow up an apex seal costing me a Rotor, Rotor Housing and Rear Iron! I left the timing maps stock and most people who looked at the stock maps said they were way to aggressive.
Is anyone tuning their timing with the Rtek? I need something to compare my maps to.
Ed
Does anyone agree that the timing seems to aggressive as the RPM's rise under boost?
I am pretty sure this was the main factor that caused my motor to detonate and blow up an apex seal costing me a Rotor, Rotor Housing and Rear Iron! I left the timing maps stock and most people who looked at the stock maps said they were way to aggressive.
Is anyone tuning their timing with the Rtek? I need something to compare my maps to.
Ed
10-01-06, 03:15 PM
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yes I agree with you, I haven't been able to log since I blew my motor but I think your on the right track in finding were the most load is then making the map work around that area.
like if the most load is at 80 on the map then that is where you would want it to be around 15 deg est.
I would then make the map be anything above 80 be 15deg and then start increasing timing as load lessens. I would also keep the timing settings from 1000-3000 the same as stock because that will be your driveability and you shoun't be in to much load in that RPM range.
just my thoughts. I also could be way off in my thinking, but this is how I understand it.
hope that helps.
like if the most load is at 80 on the map then that is where you would want it to be around 15 deg est.
I would then make the map be anything above 80 be 15deg and then start increasing timing as load lessens. I would also keep the timing settings from 1000-3000 the same as stock because that will be your driveability and you shoun't be in to much load in that RPM range.
just my thoughts. I also could be way off in my thinking, but this is how I understand it.
hope that helps.
10-01-06, 07:20 PM
#7
Bastardized RE AE
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No I agree with you aswell. I didn't touch the timing under around 4800 Rpm's because they look pretty tame under that area. I just looked at where in the RPM range I though the timing was getting too aggressive (around 4800) then I took the timing degree right before it got too aggressive and then programmed in the same timing degree all the way to redline.
So after around 4800RPM until redline there is the same timing degree value programmed now.
I only reprogrammed the timing values greater than 4800 RPM's and more than 60% Load. I choose to leave the map under 60% load untouched because most people told me to blend the timing into the stock map around 2 PSI. From my datalogging it looks like around 60% load it is around 2-3 PSI.
Ed
So after around 4800RPM until redline there is the same timing degree value programmed now.
I only reprogrammed the timing values greater than 4800 RPM's and more than 60% Load. I choose to leave the map under 60% load untouched because most people told me to blend the timing into the stock map around 2 PSI. From my datalogging it looks like around 60% load it is around 2-3 PSI.
Ed
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10-31-06, 12:13 PM
#15
ok,
Does the "Timing Load Index" refer to the left colum, "Load"? And then you can cross-referance the timing to load with the rpm and figure out where you may need to adjust the timing for boost above 8psi? What am I cross referanceing on the chart below against the palm?
Does the "Timing Load Index" refer to the left colum, "Load"? And then you can cross-referance the timing to load with the rpm and figure out where you may need to adjust the timing for boost above 8psi? What am I cross referanceing on the chart below against the palm?
10-31-06, 12:26 PM
#16
It's not as hard as you're making it.
You have RPM already, so you know what RPM "band" to adjust on the timing table. And the Timing Load Index is 18 pointing to the 18th load cell. Where the RPM and the load meet, adjust that cell.
I suppose it would be easier if we listed the load itself instead of the index so it's a direct cross reference?
You have RPM already, so you know what RPM "band" to adjust on the timing table. And the Timing Load Index is 18 pointing to the 18th load cell. Where the RPM and the load meet, adjust that cell.
I suppose it would be easier if we listed the load itself instead of the index so it's a direct cross reference?
10-31-06, 07:52 PM
#23
Bastardized RE AE
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The cell chart does take a while to get used to but once you figure it out it's OK. The thing that makes tuning the timing so difficult is the fact that the load is maxed out at such low airflow values.
Also most people tune timing based on rpm and airflow or boost pressure. Rtek uses RPM and load %. The load % fluctuates and is hard to match up to airflow or boost.
Based on Wankler's data he is going to have to tune solely by RPM because any time he is in boost the load is at 100%. That means his motor has the same timing value at a fixed RPM at say 2 PSI or 15PSI. This is not a ideal tuning method.
Also most people tune timing based on rpm and airflow or boost pressure. Rtek uses RPM and load %. The load % fluctuates and is hard to match up to airflow or boost.
Based on Wankler's data he is going to have to tune solely by RPM because any time he is in boost the load is at 100%. That means his motor has the same timing value at a fixed RPM at say 2 PSI or 15PSI. This is not a ideal tuning method.
10-31-06, 08:00 PM
#24
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Is there a way we can make the timing tuning based on RPM & Boost or airflow vs. RPM & Load?
The stock load & RPM timing may be OK for a stock car because the car is tuned from the factory based on stock airflow maps, but when these change dramaticly (modified engine) it seems to me that the numbers are no longer applicable and the system of load based timing maps dont work.
The stock load & RPM timing may be OK for a stock car because the car is tuned from the factory based on stock airflow maps, but when these change dramaticly (modified engine) it seems to me that the numbers are no longer applicable and the system of load based timing maps dont work.
10-31-06, 08:34 PM
#25
I believe this was done because thats the way it is calculated in the ECU. To change the way *you* control timing would require a change in the way the ECU controls timing. Since we are accessing the stock maps, there is no way to present to you a RPM vs Boost table if the ECU is using RPM vs load to figure out what value to use.
I'm not saying I don't see your problem though. The two solutions that come to mind are 1: change the way timing is calculated within the ECU. This I'm guessing would be a major undertaking and would have a whole new set of problems. 2: add a "timing correction table". Change it to no longer access the stock maps, but rather lay a correction table of RPM vs boost over the stock timing maps. I would imagine a loggable parameter of "total Timing" would be needed which would be the stock timing value plus/minus the correction.
But I'll let henrik chime in here. He'd have a lot better idea of what's involved.
I'm not saying I don't see your problem though. The two solutions that come to mind are 1: change the way timing is calculated within the ECU. This I'm guessing would be a major undertaking and would have a whole new set of problems. 2: add a "timing correction table". Change it to no longer access the stock maps, but rather lay a correction table of RPM vs boost over the stock timing maps. I would imagine a loggable parameter of "total Timing" would be needed which would be the stock timing value plus/minus the correction.
But I'll let henrik chime in here. He'd have a lot better idea of what's involved.