Scalliwag

Brandon, It was your last post that really set me off. It proved that either you did not read the thread and just popped off, or that you did not pay much attention.
Page 4 of this thread was where my homework at the time taught me about the micro pores and there were several posts in there that talked about it. Also included was this link http://members.rogers.com/sofronov/C...otary/12A.html
that covered it even more.
After about $9,000 and growing out of pocket and countless hours spent with machinists for ensuring machine accuracies as well as the aforementioned experts in the other fields you hit a raw nerve so let's put your *** on the defense of whether you actually took the time to read this or made some assumptions before you posted.



From page 4:

No7Yet

Wow. Let me tell you how impressed I am by some random link you found on the internet. Oh wait, I'm not at all. Who wrote the page that you're basing so much money on? What are his credentials? How did he come by this information? Deniability is the name of the game here.

I base my information on SAE documents published by Mazda (thanks to RETed, btw, for the initial few document numbers). I suggest you do the same.

And you've still not addressed the issues I've raised concerning quality control.

Brandon

No7Yet

Oh, and concerning the "let's put your *** on the defense" comment.

Remember who's trying to make money from whom, shall we?

Brandon

Scalliwag

Read the thread. You popped off about me not knowing anything about the micropores earlier and it was mentioned on the 4th page of the thread.
You are just a smartass. No one here has been asked to send me anything at anytime and several have been put on hold until the testing has been done.
Telling me I'm trying to make money off of these people and I am ready to accept their money? Well where in the hell did I tell anyone to send me anything?

Ken Scheepers contacted me about helping me test it. Chris Ott of Rotary Performance contacted me and offered to let me use a new housing to check specs against. They also have an engine dyno that we will test it on.
So what groundbreaking testing and new ideas have you brought to the table here Brandon?

As far as addressing quality control? I don't mind addressing that at all. Checking the wall for squareness is remedial. Pinning a new housing to a resurfaced housing and checking them against each other is pretty easy as well.

What do you disagree with on that link? You popped off earlier "steel sleeve please". Is there not a SIP (sheet metal insert) used in a rotor housing? Last time I checked sheet metal is steel. And who said anything about a conspiracy at Mazda? The surface of the side plate is nitrited.

Maybe someone who has been following the thread that has read anything from me including PM's, emails, etc. that ever heard me indicate it was okay at anytime to send me their money and/or parts please let me know. Cause I am thinking Brandon is just popping off.

No7Yet

You've set a price point and you speak the in present tense of people sending you parts. What more do I need to conclude what I have?

You claim that checking the squareness of an endplate is remedial. What is your reference? You've mentioned a reasonable method of checking the epitrochoidal surface; appreciated.

Many different types of metal can be bought in sheets.

My "conspiracy" comment was to ward off any conjecture about Mazda having some sort of ulterior motive in not releasing this procedure to the public. Again, if it were as easy and cheap as you're proposing, why doesn't Mazda do it?

How do you know that the side housing is nitrided?

Lastly, I need bring nothing new to the table here. If you want my input, you can contact me about consulting for you. I'm playing the part of the informed consumer. If you want my dime, you'd better earn it, and I make no bones about letting other hopefully interested potential consumers know what I've found out. After all, you're the one who started making extraordinary claims in a publicly-accessable forum.

Brandon

CarmonColvin

If you don't like his price or don't believe (or just didn't read) the amount of research he has put into this project there is a simple solution. Don't buy any of his housings.

You raised some very good questions but most of them have been addressed. Just because you overlooked them does not justify your questioning of his knowledge. Possibly if you had more than just some SAE documents in hand your arguments would be taken more seriously.

I would love to get a few of the first housings sold. I have three motors to build, two of the motors I know are good candidates for needing new housings (high mileage, lost seals). Twice I have contacted Scalliwag and both times I have been told to wait until more R&D is done.

If he is as you have insinuated (un-researched and hungry just to make a dollar) then he would not of turned me away, twice.

Scalliwag

Jeez, this became an english lesson now? "I will be resurfacing for $300 per housing." indicates it will be at a time in the future. Anyone who kept up at all to the thread already knows I have mentioned the testing phase has to be successful first. That is when it will change to "I am resurfacing for $300 per housing".

My reference for the side plate is that mentioned in an earlier post I am only milling the area that the side components of the rotor will wear against. So when I machine the sprayed surface down flush to the original machined surface it can be checked with a straight edge.
There are two reasons I will do that. 1) Because I won't have to re-do the inner o-ring and 2) because it will be easy to tell where the original surface is.

Also the center plate gets sprayed on both sides obviously. The bed that the side plate sits on has to have leveled pegs that keeps the unground sprayed surface from touching the bed. Since both sides are sprayed it would be out of square if I tried to lock it down before one side was resurfaced.
That kind of sucks because it would be easier to use a magnetic bed to hold the work in place. With the pegs there will not be enough contact surface for it to hold.
Both sides of all housings are machined 90 degrees to the e-shaft though. So there are other references. The the original reference you can tell real quick. Especially if you grind too deep.

No7Yet

Originally posted by ThePartsTrader
If you don't like his price or don't believe (or just didn't read) the amount of research he has put into this project there is a simple solution. Don't buy any of his housings.


I've read the thread twice over just this evening, in addition to the times I'd read it previous. I as yet see no evidence that he's done the sort of research necessary to support the wild claims he's made.

Quote:
How can he make such claims when, by all evidence here, he doesn't know the hardness or fatigue ratings of Mazda's processes?

If he doesn't convince me, fine, I won't buy his housings. But let me put forth an analogy - if the car dealer next to you was making claims about being faster, more efficient, and more reliable than a Honda Civic, and yet presented no evidence to support such claims, would you sit idly by while people tried to throw money at him, relying solely on his claims instead of evidence that they perhaps wouldn't even know to seek? While you might, your lawmakers didn't - that's why the auto industry is so heavily regulated.


You raised some very good questions but most of them have been addressed. Just because you overlooked them does not justify your questioning of his knowledge. Possibly if you had more than just some SAE documents in hand your arguments would be taken more seriously.


SAE is the standards body in the automotive industry. If it's published by SAE, and comes directly from Mazda, for all effective purposes it's irrefutable in this forum. I can not possibly bring any more "heavy" a "hitter" than Mazda's official word. Especially considering that Scalliwag is making his claims in reference to Mazda's, I expect him to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of these claims. So far, I have seen no evidence to support such an idea. I've read the entire thread multiple times, and the only "support" I see of Scalliwag's information is a random webpage that google dragged up.


<snip>If he is as you have insinuated (un-researched and hungry just to make a dollar) then he would not of turned me away, twice.

Point conceded, but it's a scientific truism that (and I repeat) "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary support."

Brandon

Scalliwag

Actually Carmon the only reason I turned you down was because you sold ThePartsTrader.com!!! That must have been a pain in the *** to maintain that site though. I am sure you caught **** everytime someone ripped someone off Brandon and I really got off to a bad start don't ya think . I think I am a little over a year into this now and only the local guys know first hand how much has been put into this.
That's why they are chomping at the bit. When we first took the screwdriver and tried to gouge the test coating it got their attention.
It's okay to be sceptical, but damn.
I was told I couldn't make a descent set of pports with a metal holesaw and a Harbor Freight mill too! It sure shut their asses up when I posted the pics of the actual process though
I thought my idea for pulling the roll pins out of exhaust port inserts was not bad either.
At least I think I do okay for a dumbass whiteboy!

No7Yet

You missed the thrust of my argument. It's the italicized phrase that I was focusing on. The "Since people are" part, specifically. I parsed the first sentence as having the pricing information operative. If you're not at this point accepting money or parts, fine - but you're still making significant claims that require support.

Thank you for that explanation - that's the sort of info I'm looking for.

Brandon

CarmonColvin

If that car dealership had not sold a single car then nobody has the right to complain.

With my personal interaction with Scalliwag (limited to email and PM's) it is obvious that he is going to be selective to whom he sells the first sets to. He wants the early users to completely understand that they are part of his testing.

I didn't keep it so I can't quote from it, but I remember from a PM/Email he sent me that he wanted experienced engine builders to be some of the first to use his housings and them to go into engines that will accumulate mileage quickly.

That is a bit different than your hypothetical car dealership selling an 800HP Pinto that gets 99mpg to any idiot that will believe it.




Post the SAE papers you have (or at least the hardness claims made in them). Be open minded and realise it might not be possible to compare apples to apples against the hardness reported by Mazda because they may of used a testing procedure that is not cost effective or even possible for Scalliwag to repeat.

No7Yet

Scalliwag, let me itemize my concerns:

1) You makes claims as to the harness and durability of his process relative to Mazda's. Please reveal your sources for Mazda's numbers, as well as those for the numbers concerning your process. Note that I'm requesting techincal whitepapers, not marketing information.

2) You develop conclusions about the suitability of your process based on its suitability in piston engines. By what method do you develop such conclusions? The piston engine may or may not be directly comparable to a rotary in any way, concerning thermal efficiency, running temperatures, combustion pressures and thermal fatigues. On what figures do you base the premises for your conclusion?

3) You judge the suitability of your procudure to be adequate based on applications wholly unrelated to an internal combustion engine, conjecturing that such stresses are more than what a rotary engine's parts would be subjected to. Again, on what do you base that claim?

4) You claim that the apparently-porous nature of your coating is advantageous to lubrication. Keeping in mind that anything visible to the naked eye is far larger than the pores and channels found on Mazda's plating, and that Mazda's plating does not inherently assume the various MCP properties, on what do you base that claim?

5) You mention the cermet coating that the R26B (the 787b engine) recieved, and not that Mazda was "amazed" at the reduced wear. Where did you receive this information, and what can you say about Mazda's testing of this same coating in a street application?

I think that's enough for right now. I think the main thrust of my concerns is becoming clear. Speaking to people and gathering anecdotal evidence is one thing, but making hard claims to the abilities of a procedure that if successful, let's face it, is going to make you one metric fuckton of money, is unacceptable. Especially when these claims are as extraordinary as they are.

Brandon

No7Yet

A few of my sources (a few available on the web, copyright issues aside):

SAE 920309 "Mazda 4-Rotor Rotary Engine for the Le Mans 24-Hour Endurance Race"
SAE 860560 "Material Technology Development Applied to Rotary Engine at Mazda"
SAE 841017 "Recent Technology Development of High-Powered Rotary Engine at Mazda"
Rotary Engine, Kenichi Yamamoto

Note that there are more, but these are the sources that are most likely readily available. Again, credit to RETed for pointing me to these documents. From these few, sources can be researched, and deeper investigation very easily performed.

Brandon

Scalliwag

Part of my claims have been based on others claims. Like when I talked to the Professor that you seem to take so lightly. He is a leading authority and has written/cowritten over 40 books in the area. He is Professor of Engineering in the Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Stanford University and there are many links to support his credentials http://www.mse.cornell.edu/materials...advisor_9.html
When he tells me that there is not a hard chrome process out there that comes close to the qualities of the Armacor coating I believe him. The man has nothing to lose. So what if he does not know rotary engines. He knows metals and alloys and friction/heat and all of the other elements and how they react with different platings and coatings.
Or when I talked to the guy from www.accuratemetallizing.com that has a metallizing shop and races snowmobiles. They use the coating on the valve seats and faces so not only are they familiar with the product, they use it in an engine application.
I explained what I was doing and he said if hard chrome worked for the same application that this would work.
It was not even a maybe.

Those were two people with nothing to gain or lose by giving me advice. Everyone with actual knowledge of the materials and processes confirmed it.
See the really cool thing here Brandon that I also mentioned early on is that I got a really good day job.
Nobody has to do diddly-**** here. They can read it if they want or whatever.
When this is ready to go people can confirm whether or not it works from reputable sources like Ari and Chris at Rotary Performance or Scheepers. These guys would not go to bat for me if it failed.
And if it does fail it does not mean I will give up the first time. The only person spending any money here is me.
If it fails I will be bummed out but there will be witnesses either way it goes.
You may see a post that says "Holy fugg'n **** I set a record for the quickest engine crash in freak'n history. And I will even post pics!
Did you never pick up on this is more a challenge to me that a business deal?
If not I would have probably pretended to know all the answers instead of asking so many questions. If you think you made some great revelation that I was learning as I went along I can assure you that everyone else picked up on that.
I do not like failure but I won't let the fear of it stop me from trying something just because no one else is doing it. And while I may not know everything about my endeavors as I take them on I do go to the people that do know the answers with "hat in hand" and cordially beg for some of their time to enlighten me on how to proceed.

But if in the end I throw my hands up and say "guys I gave it all I have and this just ain't gonna work", then I will give everyone here a refund for all the money this cost them

No7Yet

This is my point - since you seem to lack even a rudimentary knowledge of the stresses that a rotary undergoes, how can you even hope to be able to ask the right questions? You don't know the sorts of temperatures that various sections of a rotor housing acheive, nor what sort of fluctuations they need to tolerate under what load conditions. How in the world can you ask someone if a certain coating has desirable properties for an application, if you don't even know what properties are desirable? You've admitted that the people whose advice you sought have no knowledge of rotaries, and thus depend on you to define their operational parameters - how can you possibly purport to do so?

A really good example is that of valve seats in a boinger. You're talking about a completely different ballgame than a friction surface of a rotary. The advantages in your example have to do with the prevention of "spot welding" (forgive me if I forget the correct term, but I'm referring to a momentary molecular bond) between the head and the valve, which reduces the force necessary to reseparate the two. There is also the issue of heat transfer into the head, and how it affects combustion.

My point is that you can NOT draw an analogy between the two. I don't doubt that your sources are knowledgeable in their respective fields, but you can't draw a reasonable conclusion when you don't even know the parameters of the system. Did you detail the type of chrome that Mazda uses on the rotor housing when asking for a comparison? How? Where did you get that information?

Are you starting to understand my issues here?

Quote:

Those were two people with nothing to gain or lose by giving me advice. Everyone with actual knowledge of the materials and processes confirmed it.

But that's my point - if you can't adequately define the parameters involved, their recommendations are potentially useless. When the asker doesn't have enough "actual knowledge of the (base) materials and processes" on which a comparison is to be made, the askee can't be expected to give meaningful advice. Garbage in, garbage out.

Quote:

<snip> But if in the end I throw my hands up and say "guys I gave it all I have and this just ain't gonna work", then I will give everyone here a refund for all the money this cost them

That's a gut-wrenching speech, but it has zero practical meaning. If you can't subject your product to the same tests that Mazda has used (and they're not that unusual or expensive), then you under no circumstances should be making quantitative comparisons to established knowledge. By making the claims that you have, you open yourself up to some serious liability should someone like me get ahold of your product and conduct tests to determine the validity of your claims. Or perhaps you'll sell 200 of these treated housings with the claim that they'll last 200,000 miles and zero substantial evidence to support that claim - what will you do when all of them that were used north of Kentucky crack from thermal fatigue after a single winter? Especially at the price point you've set, the product is very lucrative. People should feel confident in buying new housings, since they can be assured that Mazda has consistent rotor housing quality, and the results of various tests concerning wear and fatigue are easily available should they want them. Can you say the same?

Brandon

Scalliwag

You wore me out Brandon. Only my wife can argue that much. But hey, you got your papers and there are links and contacts here to all of my sources.
What I found out so far was enough to satisfy me.
Even if this works as good or even better than I could ever hope for I won't never do a white paper on it.
As for a metric ton of money I would not sell my idea or quit my day job and the process is time consuming.
In the end I make $100 per housing for about 4 hours work and that does not include tooling wear or consumables.
Maybe I can get a better deal on getting them sprayed or figure out some ways to speed it up at some point.
But the reality is about the best I can hope for for people to say "look what that son-of-a-bitch" did in his freakin' garage.
A perfect example of what drives me is where the guy posted the thread on if anyone knew a good way to get roll pins out to remove an exhaust port insert.
I had no idea but by-gawd the thought of how to get one of them little bastards out was not setting too well with me.
Maybe Mazda had white papers, I don't know. But you go to this thread and you look at the time/date it all started to where and how I did it. I even posted pics https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=123225

No it's not rocket science but I got a ton of PM's from guys that told me that it sure as hell would have helped if they thought of it when they were in that situation.
There may be 50 other ways to do it easier but no one there had the answer at the time.
I only wished I would have had you moral support to pull me through it

Cheers!

So Brandon what do you do at University of Florida i persume?

Scalliwag

I read "white papers" on a bumble bee one time that said it was not possible for it to fly. Fortunately no one told the bumble bees that and they just flap their fat asses around like they own the damn place!

No7Yet

Actually, I work at Florida State University. I'll let you get away with confusing them this once. I'm a jack-of-all-trades and work in conjunction with the FDOT's Traffic Engineering Research Laboratory (TERL) for the Information Processing and Transmission Engineering Laboratory (IPTEL) doing IT/Support and programming, among other tagenital research activities. My official title is (and I'm not kidding) "Almighty King of All Things Technical and Obtuse".



Brandon

P.S. The best title in our lab is James Langston's; he's "The Supreme Chancellor of NTCIP for the TERL". When he's feeling verbose, he'll bust those acronyms wide open and spend 30 seconds reciting his title. It's a hoot.

mmaragos

Wow. Why do you have such a problem with this? Seriously, it sounds like you have a vested or personal interest in hacking apart what Scalliwag is trying to accomplish. Not that you shouldn't be able to question what he is claiming, but relax a little. Real world testing of the housings will prove out much of what he is putting forth. I think that it has been made clear that none will be sold until they prove out.

And blah, blah, blah about making claims on an internet forum or trying to debunk another's work. These are aftermarket parts, not OE. Additionally no written guarantee has been put forth, it is not even an available product yet. There is no one to protect from anything at this point. The claims that have been put forth are expectations, but since nothing here can be considered a binding guarantee there is no need to get the panties all bunched up.

I realize and accept that on the scale that Scalliwag is working you are not going to get all of the R&D and testing that Mazda performed and I appreciate the SAE papers and technical information from them. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be an alternate or better way. Mazda engineers didn't do everything right, so it would seem prudent to temper their findings, not consider them gospel.

Scalliwag

Am I the only person here who thinks this guy is a god damn moron? Tell you what guys instead of PM'ing me tell this fuckup directly on the thread what you think of him.
As for you directly Brandon do something ANY ******* thing to show where you have ever done diddly **** in your miserable pathetic life. Better yet you get your smart *** out here to Fort Worth and we can meet up at Rotary Performance and we can have a face to face on this with witnesses as to your "*****" when we face off.
You can tell and show everyone here how unaccomplished I am and they are going to hit your *** with the same thing I have. What the **** have you done other than be a smartass? I am not patient with idiots and there are lots of people in the rotary world that know me. You want additional information get it yourself.


If you are so smart then you get something done, ANYTHING as remedial as a new way to pull a ******* roll pin to back your smart *** up. Until then shut you smart *** up.
I don't know if you are getting PM's of support from your end, but from the ones I am getting you have been labeled a ********, moron, idiot, and a couple of others.
If you are SO ******* more knowledgable than me then show me anything other than a smartass remark that you have accomplished.

You seem to think that this is somehow about you or that you have some sort of meaning to this at all. You don't.
So I won't bore you with anymore speeches. You show us something. What have YOU tried. Don't tell me about my lame *** research. Do you have one ******* link to anything you have accomplished? I've made at least some sort of accomplishments on the forum showing people how to make a pport housing for example.
Not a claim, no whitepapers. I made the ************* with zero help from any dipshit like you.
Sure there were plenty of people with their thumbs stuck ever so tightly up their lazy asses telling me it would not and in the meantime they were accomplishing as much as YOU. No what that was? Not a freakin' thing.
I have said that the **** is slicker and harder. I have also said that people here have seen it and tried to gouge it and a stock housing and it was tougher. They could tell by just the feel it is slicker. Other applications such as coal crushers and boilers have shown the durability.
We did not need white papers. You wipe your *** with white paper.

I don't care what you are called at your university but that is not what I am hearing people call you.
So quit taking that spineless way out and show us what the hell you have done... and give us the freak'n white papers!

relvinnian

I agree. Calm down. No one cares. If stupid people want to buy un-proven housings, let them.

No7Yet

Dupe. Doh!

Brandon

No7Yet

Come back with some "zingers" after a night's rest? Fine. But the fact is that I never accused you of being anything but unresearched, and asked for evidence to the contrary. You are the one who's made the outrageous claims here. The impoetus is upon YOU to back them up.

This is both a red herring and ad hominem, and unrelated to anything at hand. I stand by every contribution I've made in various rotary-related fora.

I reiterate that you are the one who's made the outrageous claims. The impoetus is upon YOU to back them up.

The information I've asked for is straightforward; I want your sources and technical information. You're making quantitative claims as to the abilities of your process relative to Mazda's. Thus, you must be able to provide the sources for BOTH sets of data, something you seem to be unable to do.

Let me give you an example:

Mazda says that the surface of the soft nitrided (note nitride, not nitrite, as you've previously said) end housing has a Vickers hardness of 900. You claim that the Armacore coating has a Rockwell C hardness of 55. According to the American Engineering Group, a Rockwell C hardness of 55 is roughly equivalent to a Vickers hardness of 600. Even considering fundamental testing differences, they simply cannot account for a 50% difference in a linear scale. Sources noted in previous posts.

That's the only number you've made public about your procedure, and it's below Mazda's standard.

Again, you've made extraordinary claims here. Instead of backing them up with FACTS, you're attacking me ad hominem. I don't care what the peanut gallery has to say about me personally, because this forum has a tendency toward blind faith. FACTS, Scalliwag, FACTS. Can you provide them? Seems like you're having trouble handling a little scrutiny.

Brandon

Scalliwag

Okay, let me give you an example of where you missed a couple of points as well as a couple of links in the post.
You missed the fact the the 55C rockwell hardness is when it is first sprayed and if read anything about the amorpheus structure and how it is obtained you would see under the Armacor/ Products page the final hardness which is: (I would hate for you to actually have to look this up yourself so here it is)


Also in the post that I referred to the hard (55C) I was pointing out grinding this material was harder. I was also reffering to the hardness of a housing and not a side plate.
But thanks for pointing out that the finished hardness is actually between 100 to 400 harder on the Vickers scale than a stock side plate.
Following the links would have told you that.

So there is an "extraordinary claim" that was indeed backed up through posts and links. Did you research the coating at all? I did.