View Poll Results: How are your RA seals holding up?
Seals unnecessarily failed, between 10k & 20k miles
0
0%
Seals unnecessarily failed, over 20k miles
0
0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Success/Failure of RA seals?
09-15-05, 08:25 PM
#52
Originally Posted by alberto_mg
sorry to clutter up the thread with this guys but i don't have much of a choice.
Last edited by moehler; 09-15-05 at 08:28 PM.
09-15-05, 10:33 PM
#53
Originally Posted by alberto_mg
Jason,
My issue is that the 2000 mile motor you guys built, broke in and tuned has 102 psi compression on the front rotor and 85 on the rear. Something isn't right. It could be a defective part like a bad batch of apex seals or side seals that weren't properly set or any one of a few other items.
I've sent you guys 5 emails about it now, talked to Xaviar twice, left voicemails after each email and called multiple other times. I can easily upload my phone records to prove this. Not having heard back from anyone, you left me no choice but to start making noise on the forum. Go back and read my emails it's all there. Or give Manny a call he was cc'ed on each email and even responded back to both me and Xaviar. I don't like bashing people on a forum but what choice did you leave me?
Some of your comments really puzzle me...
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
Manny put very few miles on the car after he took delivery from you and sold it to me shortly thereafter. Again, this in Manny's emailed respones to both Xaviar and myself.
As for bashing you, I made two negative comments about your company after you guys blew me off since May. In the past I had left many positive comments about your company. If you don't me to bash you, then provide me with the customer service you used to before I had a major problem with one of your products/services. It is not an unreasonable request is it?
I'm uploading a copy of the email you sent me so you can see exactly what you wrote. It is very non-commital and doesn't answer any of the questions about how we are going to proceed on this.
I look forward to hearing from you.
My issue is that the 2000 mile motor you guys built, broke in and tuned has 102 psi compression on the front rotor and 85 on the rear. Something isn't right. It could be a defective part like a bad batch of apex seals or side seals that weren't properly set or any one of a few other items.
I've sent you guys 5 emails about it now, talked to Xaviar twice, left voicemails after each email and called multiple other times. I can easily upload my phone records to prove this. Not having heard back from anyone, you left me no choice but to start making noise on the forum. Go back and read my emails it's all there. Or give Manny a call he was cc'ed on each email and even responded back to both me and Xaviar. I don't like bashing people on a forum but what choice did you leave me?
Some of your comments really puzzle me...
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
Manny put very few miles on the car after he took delivery from you and sold it to me shortly thereafter. Again, this in Manny's emailed respones to both Xaviar and myself.
As for bashing you, I made two negative comments about your company after you guys blew me off since May. In the past I had left many positive comments about your company. If you don't me to bash you, then provide me with the customer service you used to before I had a major problem with one of your products/services. It is not an unreasonable request is it?
I'm uploading a copy of the email you sent me so you can see exactly what you wrote. It is very non-commital and doesn't answer any of the questions about how we are going to proceed on this.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Our warranty does not cover apex seals. I dont know of any company that covers apex seal damage.
That car left here over a year ago running perfect. Both Manny and myself drove that car hard with no problems along with 25 pulls on the dyno. That was at 14-15lbs of boost. When tuning of course its goes thru the 10lb range but I didnt tune it thru the whole RPM range at 10lbs. It was tuned for 13-15 lbs of boost which it was running good. Who knows why you are having problems with it, I dont know. Its been over a year and car has changed hands once.
If you need anymore info then email me. This has nothing to do with RA seals.
Jason
09-16-05, 07:36 AM
#54
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Originally Posted by dubulup
any break-in is better than boosting 15psi on seals that haven't been heat cycled in their new enviroment.
I'm okay with a 500 mi break-in if the bearings in the motor are used or pre-broke in.
I'm okay with a 500 mi break-in if the bearings in the motor are used or pre-broke in.
09-16-05, 08:08 AM
#55
development
Originally Posted by alberto_mg
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Manny put very few miles on the car after he took delivery from you and sold it to me shortly thereafter. Again, this in Manny's emailed respones to both Xaviar and myself.
Manny put very few miles on the car after he took delivery from you and sold it to me shortly thereafter. Again, this in Manny's emailed respones to both Xaviar and myself.
BTW 85psi doesn't sound like an apex seal problem.
09-16-05, 08:16 AM
#56
development
Originally Posted by LUPE
I'm okay with a 0 mile break-in with used bearings. I let them idle for a good 8 hours, though.
I deal with durability life testing on aircraft parts, so I see (almost on a daily basis) how important thermal cycling is.
Something just sits better with me stressing it slowly until max stress has been reached...its just like warming up your car in the morning before hitting 23psi of boost...but on a much larger scale.
This is the first engine I built...so of course babied the hell out of it and **** my pants the first time the boost gauge rocked past 0psi haha! Now, I've got no problem driving 100 miles to a road course and beating the **** out of her...mostly out of curiousity, "how much can this bitch take?" and then driving home.
I've built a couple more motors since...
09-16-05, 10:21 AM
#57
Originally Posted by LUPE
I'm okay with a 0 mile break-in with used bearings. I let them idle for a good 8 hours, though.
one of the most important things during break in of any engine is to vary the load and engine speed. this helps with thermal cycling and also lets the parts expand and contract and stretch with acceleration and different centripetal forces.
this is very important, as the first few hours apply a degree of cold work to the material, changing the elastic stress limits and etc. if you get your parts worked into a certain position due to too much time at one load/speed, the engine can have major sealing problems later and have to be rebuilt after only a few miles.
if you ask me, the best breakin procedure is to find a meandering 2 lane road and go for several medium length drives at low throttle levels. once you put some miles on this way, the parts should all be worked in and you cna expand your limits some.
pat
09-19-05, 09:31 PM
#58
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I feel your pain, Alberto. This seems really wrong to my sensibilities.
Being accused of bashing when you've exhausted all civil means of addressing (with the emails to support it) this issue is really bad behavior on the Store's part.
One of the liabilities of being in the rotary engine building business is that you had best be prepared to ensure customer satisfaction, otherwise, why even get involved?
Now, whether it surfaces on this forum or not, it's a small enough community that word does get around, and it has to affect your business. A 2 year/24k open-end warranty is just that. So, what's the issue? Why tarnish your company's reputation? The motor was built over a year ago?....it's a two year warranty. Ownership of the car changed?....yes, and your point is? Warranties survive ownership in the motor building business.
And the 'not tuned for 10lb' comment is just unacceptable. Is this to suggest that the motor immediately builds to 13-14lbs., and passes through all other boost levels/rpms. Huh? What about all the cells below this boost level? They weren't optimized? Then, the tune job is suspect, and the Store should be liable. If you're going to tune, then you best be prepared for stuff like this if you get it wrong.
Let's not forget the damage that Gordon did to PFS when he wouldn't stand behind his work- it's not worth it IMHO. Why risk it? Right now, there's a bunch of customers probably sitting here reading this and scratching their heads. Do the right thing and be done with it already. All the guy wants is a properly running car- is that too much to ask?
[QUOTE=alberto_mg]Jason,
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
Being accused of bashing when you've exhausted all civil means of addressing (with the emails to support it) this issue is really bad behavior on the Store's part.
One of the liabilities of being in the rotary engine building business is that you had best be prepared to ensure customer satisfaction, otherwise, why even get involved?
Now, whether it surfaces on this forum or not, it's a small enough community that word does get around, and it has to affect your business. A 2 year/24k open-end warranty is just that. So, what's the issue? Why tarnish your company's reputation? The motor was built over a year ago?....it's a two year warranty. Ownership of the car changed?....yes, and your point is? Warranties survive ownership in the motor building business.
And the 'not tuned for 10lb' comment is just unacceptable. Is this to suggest that the motor immediately builds to 13-14lbs., and passes through all other boost levels/rpms. Huh? What about all the cells below this boost level? They weren't optimized? Then, the tune job is suspect, and the Store should be liable. If you're going to tune, then you best be prepared for stuff like this if you get it wrong.
Let's not forget the damage that Gordon did to PFS when he wouldn't stand behind his work- it's not worth it IMHO. Why risk it? Right now, there's a bunch of customers probably sitting here reading this and scratching their heads. Do the right thing and be done with it already. All the guy wants is a properly running car- is that too much to ask?
[QUOTE=alberto_mg]Jason,
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
09-20-05, 09:19 AM
#59
[QUOTE=gcthree]I feel your pain, Alberto. This seems really wrong to my sensibilities.
Being accused of bashing when you've exhausted all civil means of addressing (with the emails to support it) this issue is really bad behavior on the Store's part.
One of the liabilities of being in the rotary engine building business is that you had best be prepared to ensure customer satisfaction, otherwise, why even get involved?
Now, whether it surfaces on this forum or not, it's a small enough community that word does get around, and it has to affect your business. A 2 year/24k open-end warranty is just that. So, what's the issue? Why tarnish your company's reputation? The motor was built over a year ago?....it's a two year warranty. Ownership of the car changed?....yes, and your point is? Warranties survive ownership in the motor building business.
And the 'not tuned for 10lb' comment is just unacceptable. Is this to suggest that the motor immediately builds to 13-14lbs., and passes through all other boost levels/rpms. Huh? What about all the cells below this boost level? They weren't optimized? Then, the tune job is suspect, and the Store should be liable. If you're going to tune, then you best be prepared for stuff like this if you get it wrong.
Let's not forget the damage that Gordon did to PFS when he wouldn't stand behind his work- it's not worth it IMHO. Why risk it? Right now, there's a bunch of customers probably sitting here reading this and scratching their heads. Do the right thing and be done with it already. All the guy wants is a properly running car- is that too much to ask?
I have kept in contact with Alberto and sent him an email about the situation over a week ago which I got no reply.
Our current warranty is 1 year or 12k miles and we have never covered apex seal damage. There isnt a company out there that covers that. Its hard to say what is exactly wrong with his motor. He can send it to us and we can take a look at it. If its a bad bearing then that is something that would be covered. His compression test does not sound like its an apex seal problem. Just in the past couple a of weeks we have warrantied 2 motors with no questions asked. These had aviation seals and we were unsure of why they lost compression.
I guess you missed my post about tuning at 10lbs. I did tune thru 10lbs up to 14lbs, but didnt tune thru the entire RPM range at 10lbs. So if he was taking it up to 7k at 10lbs I dont know what the A/F's were.
There isnt much I can do about this until I see what is wrong with the motor, so speculating is a waste of time.
Jason
Being accused of bashing when you've exhausted all civil means of addressing (with the emails to support it) this issue is really bad behavior on the Store's part.
One of the liabilities of being in the rotary engine building business is that you had best be prepared to ensure customer satisfaction, otherwise, why even get involved?
Now, whether it surfaces on this forum or not, it's a small enough community that word does get around, and it has to affect your business. A 2 year/24k open-end warranty is just that. So, what's the issue? Why tarnish your company's reputation? The motor was built over a year ago?....it's a two year warranty. Ownership of the car changed?....yes, and your point is? Warranties survive ownership in the motor building business.
And the 'not tuned for 10lb' comment is just unacceptable. Is this to suggest that the motor immediately builds to 13-14lbs., and passes through all other boost levels/rpms. Huh? What about all the cells below this boost level? They weren't optimized? Then, the tune job is suspect, and the Store should be liable. If you're going to tune, then you best be prepared for stuff like this if you get it wrong.
Let's not forget the damage that Gordon did to PFS when he wouldn't stand behind his work- it's not worth it IMHO. Why risk it? Right now, there's a bunch of customers probably sitting here reading this and scratching their heads. Do the right thing and be done with it already. All the guy wants is a properly running car- is that too much to ask?
Originally Posted by alberto_mg
Jason,
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.
Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.
Our current warranty is 1 year or 12k miles and we have never covered apex seal damage. There isnt a company out there that covers that. Its hard to say what is exactly wrong with his motor. He can send it to us and we can take a look at it. If its a bad bearing then that is something that would be covered. His compression test does not sound like its an apex seal problem. Just in the past couple a of weeks we have warrantied 2 motors with no questions asked. These had aviation seals and we were unsure of why they lost compression.
I guess you missed my post about tuning at 10lbs. I did tune thru 10lbs up to 14lbs, but didnt tune thru the entire RPM range at 10lbs. So if he was taking it up to 7k at 10lbs I dont know what the A/F's were.
There isnt much I can do about this until I see what is wrong with the motor, so speculating is a waste of time.
Jason
09-20-05, 01:23 PM
#62
BOOSTED Vert
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Look, im not gunna say that the seals are the best thing out. They are not magical in any way. They are harder than stock, so of course they are gunna take longer to wear even and to break in. Which is prolly the reason why they are scoring the housings. With these seals you should run more premix and definately stay away if using the stock lube system.
But I currently run a t70@20psi. Detonated a few times while on the stock ecu. I was running 10 psi on the t70 using the stock vert computer. with 550. I pinged and detonated all over the place. 120 psi in the first rotor and 110 in the rear since day one. Taken both hot and cold. The car idles fine and starts up everytime. no hot start problems. And im even on the ra springs....
But I currently run a t70@20psi. Detonated a few times while on the stock ecu. I was running 10 psi on the t70 using the stock vert computer. with 550. I pinged and detonated all over the place. 120 psi in the first rotor and 110 in the rear since day one. Taken both hot and cold. The car idles fine and starts up everytime. no hot start problems. And im even on the ra springs....
09-20-05, 07:10 PM
#64
Originally Posted by MARTIN
They are harder than stock, so of course they are gunna take longer to wear even and to break in. Which is prolly the reason why they are scoring the housings. With these seals you should run more premix and definately stay away if using the stock lube system.
This is how I feel. The RA seals I feel need a little more attention.
09-20-05, 10:20 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by patman
heres another question;
what did you guys that had problems do as far as assembly lubrication?
i use almost a quart of 20/50 when i assemble an engine, smear it on all wear surfaces, and kinda just dump it around when i close the case up.
what did you guys that had problems do as far as assembly lubrication?
i use almost a quart of 20/50 when i assemble an engine, smear it on all wear surfaces, and kinda just dump it around when i close the case up.
09-20-05, 11:58 PM
#67
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by MARTIN
Its not the assembly lube that makes the difference. Its the lube while the motor is runnning.
09-21-05, 12:03 AM
#68
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by patman
what did you guys that had problems do as far as assembly lubrication?
Originally Posted by scathcart
When I build, all of the rotor seals are lubricated with ample amounts of vasoline. The side plates, rotor housing faces, bearings, and eccentric shafts are all coated with Royal Purple Engine Assembly lube. Once the engine is assembled, I spin the engine by hand to check for bind, and put an extra squirt of assembly lube in each combustion chamber. When installing the oil pump, I lubricate the rotor faces with assembly lube, use a paper gasket, and fill the passage with some 10W30. I also like to fill the oil cooler lines w/ 10W30 before bolting them on. Before I spin on the oil filter, I fill the two passages in the pedestal with 10W30. I then turn the engine over by hand, with the spark plugs out, until oil starts coming into the oil filter pedestal, letting me know that the oil cooler has been filled after being flushed out when the engine was removed.
Next, I fill the gas tank with 80:1 premixed gasoline from a jug. I jump power to the fuel pump to run the premixed gasoline through the system, for several minutes. Then, I disconnect power to fuel and spark, and crank the engine over until I see full oil pressure on the gauge... this typically only takes me 10 seconds. If you don't fill the oiling system before hand, this takes 45-60 seconds....
I then start the engines, and run them until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes, then do a complete oil and filter change.
I am super-**** about lubrication to my engines. I have heard of other people disconnecting the MOP control rod for 500 miles so that their engine breaks in faster without any negative results... so I can't possibly see how my excessive over-oiling compared to this could possibly cause more wear.
Next, I fill the gas tank with 80:1 premixed gasoline from a jug. I jump power to the fuel pump to run the premixed gasoline through the system, for several minutes. Then, I disconnect power to fuel and spark, and crank the engine over until I see full oil pressure on the gauge... this typically only takes me 10 seconds. If you don't fill the oiling system before hand, this takes 45-60 seconds....
I then start the engines, and run them until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes, then do a complete oil and filter change.
I am super-**** about lubrication to my engines. I have heard of other people disconnecting the MOP control rod for 500 miles so that their engine breaks in faster without any negative results... so I can't possibly see how my excessive over-oiling compared to this could possibly cause more wear.
10-03-05, 08:19 AM
#71
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RA seal report
I have only built two motors so not an expert. Not my day job. First motor is na that sees serious track duty. I am an instructor for HPD events and do about 12-13 events per year. This is a lot of load on the engine. Motors see 8000 RPM lap after lap. The first motor used atkins seals with good used housings. Motor started right up after rebuild and is seems fine at ~30,000 TRACK miles. Don't think it has ever had trouble starting.
Last motor was a turbo, used RA seals. Housing were silky smooth but used. This motor was almost impossible to start at first. Finally shorted fuel injectors and switch still there. Need to use it time to time, Motor has ~4000 miles and starts OK 85% of the time. I would be in big trouble without the shorting switch. I haven't done a compression test but I believe these seals are quite different in terms of sealing up. Duh! BUT....Yesterday I had audiable detonation on the dyno. Thrid gear pull was fine but with the addtional load of a fourth gear pull Bad news... (Dont know what a good number is for street port but made 236 HP. Maybe evidence of seals sealing???Can't seem to get the fuel rich enough.) But I think seals survived as I drove it home with out drama. Motor started up good this morning. A blown motor would have spoiled my day. The fuel curve was my fault and maybe the seals saved me big time ????
I am confused about the seals. Price is low and they seem to survive a good ping. (not an expert on this either, never had one before!- scared me silly) I see so many posts about problems I must believe there is something behind it. I hope to get a compression test but otherwise I don't know how to tell if housing are suffering? It's kind of like my na motor. It would be interested to see how the atkins seals wear but the motor runs so well, I'm not going to tear it down just to look at it. Gaskets and labor is too much.
Last motor was a turbo, used RA seals. Housing were silky smooth but used. This motor was almost impossible to start at first. Finally shorted fuel injectors and switch still there. Need to use it time to time, Motor has ~4000 miles and starts OK 85% of the time. I would be in big trouble without the shorting switch. I haven't done a compression test but I believe these seals are quite different in terms of sealing up. Duh! BUT....Yesterday I had audiable detonation on the dyno. Thrid gear pull was fine but with the addtional load of a fourth gear pull Bad news... (Dont know what a good number is for street port but made 236 HP. Maybe evidence of seals sealing???Can't seem to get the fuel rich enough.) But I think seals survived as I drove it home with out drama. Motor started up good this morning. A blown motor would have spoiled my day. The fuel curve was my fault and maybe the seals saved me big time ????
I am confused about the seals. Price is low and they seem to survive a good ping. (not an expert on this either, never had one before!- scared me silly) I see so many posts about problems I must believe there is something behind it. I hope to get a compression test but otherwise I don't know how to tell if housing are suffering? It's kind of like my na motor. It would be interested to see how the atkins seals wear but the motor runs so well, I'm not going to tear it down just to look at it. Gaskets and labor is too much.
10-03-05, 08:48 AM
#72
development
^thanks for sharing.
The first motor I built is a turbo motor...no starting issues or anything like that, but it does love fuel when cold. Loves fuel just idling too, I can cruise around 15.X:1 with no issues. I used all used housing and rotors, and thought that could be the cause. As rich mixtures is a sign of a weak motor...however compression hasn't changed a bit since break in. Damn close to 10k miles boost 17psi.
judging by the pole if I break 10k they won't fail
The first motor I built is a turbo motor...no starting issues or anything like that, but it does love fuel when cold. Loves fuel just idling too, I can cruise around 15.X:1 with no issues. I used all used housing and rotors, and thought that could be the cause. As rich mixtures is a sign of a weak motor...however compression hasn't changed a bit since break in. Damn close to 10k miles boost 17psi.
judging by the pole if I break 10k they won't fail
02-03-06, 01:04 PM
#75
Rotary Enthusiast
Sorry but I have got to bring this back to life... Any new experiences??? I'm thinking of giving these a shot on my next rebuild...