Scalliwag

Pretty much if it is not external on the motor Ken does not want people he confides in talking about it.
I do know that there are some apex seals I am getting ready to try here : http://www.rotaryaviation.com/apex_seals.htm
$138 for seals and springs is too crazy to be true but since my roadster will be pretty easy to get a motor in and out I am willing to give them a try. I have heard that the company is good.

Kenku

Well, I'm sort of suspecting (hoping) that it's RWHP; R26B was, IIRC, at 675hp at the flywheel, so half that would be about 335, and that ceilinged to 9K RPM because, as peejay stated, it was an endurance motor.
Then again, they had the nifty variable trumpets... I wanna make a set of those.

Rohan Ambrose claims 360hp from a bridgey on the GURU site, so I dunno. Could be RWHP for Ken?

I can't help but like your wacky choke idea. Just as a thought, what if you left a vertical bridge of material in the PPort and had a divided runner for each half; then just valve one half shut at lower RPM. Sort of like Toyota did with TVIS on the 4AG.

And I think I have to get a set of those seals. At that price, what the heck?

*edit* Yeah, I do know the dual port idea would be hard to machine. It's just an idea.

Scalliwag

The choke idea has a weird way of growing on you don't it. It is so screwy that it does not seem like it could be logical but the more you think about it the more it has work (in theory at least )
Things like the divided runner can also be implemented in a choke or possibly a thin walled insert.
Most intake systems really would not allow for a choke unless you count using a plate with a smaller hole in it between an intake gasket
These chokes are actually a few inches long so that a transition can be made down to the size of the restriction.
They are keyed so that they do not get hit by the rotor yet can follow the curvature of the apex surface (the wall)
Chokes could also be made that can vary the intake timing. Nothing says the hole has to be centered in the choke. This could come in handy when playing with turbos

Rotortuner

Well Rob at pineaple, who i respect his word quite a bit, claims that the most hp that can be extracted from a 13b pp with slide throttles is like 349-350 FWHP. So im almost sure that ken i smeasuring in FWHP. Hes probably put what 290 or so to the wheels? Its much more accurate IMO to talk FWHP because it eliminates people getting confused with different drivetrain losses in different vehicles. From what rob told me he sais that the all out factory PP 12a's put out about 290-300 FWHP max with the big carbs, his engines do about 280-290 with his housings and most other hommade housings. Most of the numders i hear coming out of the really big race only PP's is about 310-330 FWHP. This is pretty good pwr. And these are usualy using large carbs 51 or larger or big TBI setups. Seems that when all is tuned right the slide valved probably add 5-15 hp depending on design.

CJG

Scalliwag

That sounds accurate. BTW Ken is not using a slide throttle body yet.

Rotortuner

Ya, i think i knew that, so once he gets one setup he will be right about were rob said that can get. With a little more experimentation with how ports are opening and when you get get a little more to, 5-10 or so. They say really cold spark plugs like 10.5 to 13 or so can add some pwr to like another 5.

CJG

peejay

The slide throttles aren't for peak HP, they are for a wider power curve. After all, you *could* just have the intake length fixed at the length that makes peak HP... it wouldn't be worth much in real life use however.

It was my understanding that a J-bridge could have a higher peak HP than a peripheral just because you can have more timing than is commonly used with a P-port. That whole port runner size issue again... with a side port the port area isn't really dependent on port timing like it is with a P-port.

Note that while the R26B did make equivalent of 350HP for a 13B, it was RPM limited and it also was running lean fuel mixtures for pest economy... although it *did* have higher compression than standard, which is why I am interested in seeing what a peripheral port 13B with the RX-8 rotors could do.

Scalliwag

You may be thinking of a telescoping type throttle from what you are describing. The type I am talking about is a gate-valve type where the throttle plate slides in from the side.

Rotortuner

Ya we are not talking about variable leangth intake runners here. Those are really only left to the high dollar guys in road and lemanz type racing. In drag racing there is no use for something like those. As scally said we are talking about gate valves so that at wide open throttle there is no butterfly or throttle shaft restricting air and causing turbulence. There are some guys in NZ and in AU that have been dinking with the slide throttles with marginal success. The main issue is vac leak at idle and slide sticking probs. I heard a guy say that he got to see some of the original factory race ones that they made with the bosch fuel injection and he said they were a very nice unit. He said they didnt stick or leak at all and were top quality, just a few grand and you could buy one back in the day...

CJG

Kenku

Crap, I wish mention of the slide valve trickiness had been mentioned *before* the ALMS race. I do know that Downing's not using the variable trumped manifold on their R26B any more. Once again, I have to wonder how hard that would be to make... doesn't seem that complicated, really.

Slide valves though... well hum. Again, can't be *too* complicated, in theory anyhoo.

peejay

You're right, I saw slide throttle and was thinking slide trumpets...

Rotortuner

Ya nothing is ""too"" tricky, ahhaha. its just that it takes time and money to expirement on something might not even work or possibly ruin a race engine if a loos nut or bolt comes off. Plus it really doesnt add too much pwr for me to warrent "waisting" the time to make one YET. When i get something making 230 FWHP NA then i will mess with it, but until then there is a lot of other stuff that adds pwr, thats a lot easier to do.

CJG

Kenku

Well, see, I'm a bored college student and my time isn't really worth much... and I can think of ways to test most of this stuff without risking an engine. So that means I'm going to try to make some of it, simply because... well, what the hell. Besides, tell me someone wouldn't buy a slide-throttle and moveable trumpet setup if they were available.

chairchild

Hmmmmm......

I've only just found this post!! And it's helped me alot on where to go with my 12A Beetle conversion. A semi-pp with a sliding choke on the pp to limit it during normal driving.

I'm thinking about a cable operated slide-choke just before the rotor housing, and running it off about 3 SU carbs (I like SU's!!). And since It'd be only around 1" ports, I can get away with using a HIF44 for both of them. So this could be a fairly streetable setup if I get to work properly.

What do you think?

Oh yeah, I'd also go with the epoxy ports instead of inserts (cheaper and easier!)

Scalliwag

If I was going to use 3 SU's on a semi-peripheral I would setup one in the middle as the primary plumbed directly into the primary ports.
I would plumb each of the other two carbs into the pport and the secondary port. So you have a carb fed into a pport and secondary port X2.
I would also like to see the secondaries as close to the housings as possible and the primaries wrapped over the top. It would look cool as hell and with the butterflies close to the housings it would eliminate the need to try to make a slide choke.
You could setup your linkage to the secondaries so that for street they kicked open a little less and a little later than when you wanted to race it.
That is my only thoughts to that setup. Good luck and post some pics

crispeed

The last dyno I saw was 317 rwhp for Ken and 306 rwhp for Jesus(Kilo)Padilla!:0
We're making 300 rwhp on our All-motor RX-3.
I'll be interested to see what these motors would do at the flywheel. I've seen some 300 flywheel hp Downing motors do 230 hp at the wheels. I have a friend who also dynoed on both types with a street port motor and made 255 to 260 fwhp vs 200 rwhp.

Rotortuner

Wow that really surprises me. So there is a drivetrain loss of only like 15 hp ?? that is raelly a lot of hp for the housings that scally posted pics up on here of.

CJG

Kenku

Well, this is just an interpretation from an amateur (so far ) but... from what crispeed said, it actually sounds like drivetrain loss is a lot *more* than 15hp, and they're making a lot more at the flywheel than would be expected.

He gave Downing getting 300 flywheel to 230 at the wheels, or SPs from 255 to 200 at the wheels... given *that* level of drivetrain loss, it looks like Kilo and Ken are making... uhm. Godawful shitloads at the flywheel. Yes, I realize there's a lot more variables there and doing a straight percentage based on other people's drivetrain loss isn't realistic but... makes me wonder what they really *are* making at the flywheel.

Scalliwag

I don't know what could be done to those housings to get more out of them than that. The ID is 2 1/16" which I thought was too big. I would like to see what ones that looked better looked like though.
The power was more than I expected at either the flywheel or wheel but I did expect the best that would be attainable on an NA because I had a lot of faith in Ken. Keep in mind I was copying the housings he got from Ken so there is only so much credit that can be given to me anyway.

chairchild

Well god only knows how much Bhp I'm going to lose from my 1969 german gearbox

I've had a few more thoughts on the subject of my carbs as well, the primaries would share the same carb (as you suggested), but the secondaries would also share a carb - working off a delayed input shaft (yet to work out how it would work)

But the pp would both share a carb, and it would have a cable which would be detatchable. That way I could have a reasonable mpg for normal driving, but then activate a solonoid to link the cable together for when a silly little ricer want to race me

But there's more;

I also remebered that SU's have a built-in variable choke which changes itself to suit the load, so another choke in the inlet would be pointless - thus simplifying my inlet.

But how much CFM would a pp engine need? Because a HIF44 can flow 240CFM max, so I need to know how many I would need to share out between the ports

Scalliwag

The choke I am referring is not like the choke you are talking about. The choke you are talking about restricts the air before the carb yet the same amount of fuel flows through the jets to richen the mixture. I meant after the carb at the inlet into the actual housing. THis would reduce the flow after the mixture. THis will effect the low end torque. So I think I may not have communicated that well.
The optimum CFM is going to depend on the ID of the pport.
If you measure the bore of the carbs divide it by about half if you are using one carb on both housings. You could use larger but in an NA it is not going to do you any good.
So the diameter of the bore determines the CFM and that applies to the manifold as well.
As far as a

chairchild

The choke on an SU was designed to increase low-rev torque during normal driving (Its a strange little thing really - it does two jobs at the same time!)

(I knew what you meant - I think I had the same problem communicating what I meant as well )

But I've now decided on the following setup:

*1" PP's, each with it's own HIF38
* street-ported secondaries running off HIF38 (cable joined to PP cable - seperate from primaries)
*standard primaries running from shared HIF44

And if I try to change the setup again - slap me!!

The primaries should get high torque from the restricted breathing, but when the secondaries and PP's are used - nice big increases round the speedo should be expected

But if you were using Webers or Holleys, then a "hollow" SU (no fuel supply, butterflies removed, etc) could be used as an automatic choke for the inlet - providing you with torque you need for normal driving.

And just in case You're wondering:

HIF38 = 38mm ID
HIF44 = 44mm ID

crispeed

Trust me a lot can be done!.
There's still a lot of power left in those housings.
The norm for ID's are at minimum 48 to 50 mm with IDA carbs. WIth EFI the high HP people are in the 53 to 55mm ID's.
Little hint--> One of the biggest advantage of running EFI over Carb is the ability to flow a lof of CFM without loosing velocity. Remember carbs work off of a pressure drop in the venturi which is also responsible for the power limit that can be produced.
Kilo's best power with a GeneBerg carb was in the 270's rwhp range. Now he's in the low 300's not even fully tuned.
BTW> Have anyone in here seen an annular dis-charge 51mm IDA Weber carb?

Scalliwag

We've already established that Ken has ran over 300 and he's already running EFI with just over a 50mm ID inlet tube. So now I am curious who out there is running higher horsepower than that on an NA?

I've not even heard to the Weber you are talking about. How do they work?

crispeed

Originally posted by Scalliwag [/i]
[B]We've already established that Ken has ran over 300 and he's already running EFI with just over a 50mm ID inlet tube.

Just a tick over 50mm! I've seen fat and skinny ticks!
Who's we?
I would have thought 'WE' would be the people who built and made the original record setting housings and motor!

I've not even heard to the Weber you are talking about. How do they work?

It's supposed be the best/highest flowing Weber IDA type carb. Most claim an additional 20 hp using that carb. There is no aux. booster venturi in the carb. They are removed from the airflow and also a new type of main venturi is made that meter the fuel into the barrel from a series of holes. I know of a person who modifies the regular IDA's for annular discharge. I might be able to get some pics. They are pretty expensive too. I know of a guy asking around $1000 for his.