Billet rotors from Mazdatrix
09-19-10, 02:15 PM
#1
Billet rotors from Mazdatrix
Hands down the best new thing at Sevenstock this year. Literally hot of the mill from the night before. Talked extensively to the developer of these parts for Mazdatrix and these are what many rotorheads have been hoping for. These rotors were milled out of 6061 and he is hoping that after testing and final design is decided upon that they will be offered in forged aluminum. The apex seal grooves will have high strength steel inserts, the same material that is used in the bearing supports/rotor gears (also custom machined) as pictured.
Weight of the rotor was a hair over 5 lbs. The designer also noted that if indeed a forged option is available, even more material should be able to be removed without sacrificing strength to get the rotor under 5 lbs.
These are three piece rotors where the sides are bolted to the rotor body. The side seal groove is the designated "parting groove" for the body and the sides. He said this was a natural choice due to the very narrow groove the seals reside in and the difficulty of machining this groove into one piece. E&J also has a billet rotor, albeit a solid one-piece part, and Edgar stated the difficulty of machining the side seal groove, though his bad-*** figured out how to do it.
My concern would be the tolerances between the two sides of the side seal grooves, particularly because they are from different pieces making the seals stick or allowing excessive amounts of blowby into the rotor body. Hopefully this won't be an issue.
The aluminum rotor side plates are also planned to be available for modified factory rotors to further reduce weight over conventional lightening methods, though I cannot remember by how much. The side plate pictured here in the modified factory rotor retains the original side seal groove. For some reason I forgot to take a pic of the side plates for the aluminum rotor which are slightly different as described above
They will also be playing with new asymmetric bathtub designs and will let the dyno be the judge of what and what doesn't work. Initial concepts are to have the leading edge deeper and wider and narrow/shallow as it nears the trailing edge. Think of a teardrop. Plans are to make available multiple compression ratios.
Frucking sweet.
Weight of the rotor was a hair over 5 lbs. The designer also noted that if indeed a forged option is available, even more material should be able to be removed without sacrificing strength to get the rotor under 5 lbs.
These are three piece rotors where the sides are bolted to the rotor body. The side seal groove is the designated "parting groove" for the body and the sides. He said this was a natural choice due to the very narrow groove the seals reside in and the difficulty of machining this groove into one piece. E&J also has a billet rotor, albeit a solid one-piece part, and Edgar stated the difficulty of machining the side seal groove, though his bad-*** figured out how to do it.
My concern would be the tolerances between the two sides of the side seal grooves, particularly because they are from different pieces making the seals stick or allowing excessive amounts of blowby into the rotor body. Hopefully this won't be an issue.
The aluminum rotor side plates are also planned to be available for modified factory rotors to further reduce weight over conventional lightening methods, though I cannot remember by how much. The side plate pictured here in the modified factory rotor retains the original side seal groove. For some reason I forgot to take a pic of the side plates for the aluminum rotor which are slightly different as described above
They will also be playing with new asymmetric bathtub designs and will let the dyno be the judge of what and what doesn't work. Initial concepts are to have the leading edge deeper and wider and narrow/shallow as it nears the trailing edge. Think of a teardrop. Plans are to make available multiple compression ratios.
Frucking sweet.
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seanm (03-14-22)
09-19-10, 03:36 PM
#4
+1, I also spoke with this guy (Jeff, forgot his last name) at length, and he is flat-out brilliant. No doubt that with his guru machining skilz, he will make these parts work. Jeff simply gets it; his intent is to develop a lightweight engine for aircraft use.
The billet Al rotors are a bit exotic, but the lightened stock rotors with Al sideplates made me drool. He was claiming ~7lbs for them. If you have to ask how much, you cant afford it. Actually, it's way too early for pricing. As RX-H says, the chips were just blown off this stuff. Apparently, Mazdatrix will be doing testing to work-out the bugs.
The billet Al rotors are a bit exotic, but the lightened stock rotors with Al sideplates made me drool. He was claiming ~7lbs for them. If you have to ask how much, you cant afford it. Actually, it's way too early for pricing. As RX-H says, the chips were just blown off this stuff. Apparently, Mazdatrix will be doing testing to work-out the bugs.
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09-20-10, 09:53 AM
#9
very nice.... did they say when they'll be put to use? It's funny we've come this far without actually having built internals. Yes we have stronger Apex seals/modded cooling jackets/stud kits etc...but unlike piston motors.. we all pretty much just deal with stock rotors in our motors. Those ALS rotors look nice but they're just too expensive to justify using,...most people just end up having their stock rotors lightened. But can't wait till these are put into production. IF they're reasonably priced...i'd def look into a set.
09-20-10, 11:41 AM
#11
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Time to start saving... It looks like a all aluminum 4 rotor from xtremerotaries and these billet rotors will be the next project...
Hope all goes well and i can make it happened...
Hope all goes well and i can make it happened...
09-20-10, 12:19 PM
#12
Old [Sch|F]ool
I was unaware that rotor weight was the RPM limitation. I thought it was oiling problems and seal friction.
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
09-20-10, 06:37 PM
#14
I don't think that is quite possible yet anyways as there would be an issue of sourcing aluminum midplates. Of course Racing Beat offers them but Jim Mederer told me that he would not trust his cast aluminum midplate to tolerate loads from the bearing journal that would have to be installed with a 4-rotor or 3-piece e-shaft 20b.
That said, Mazdatrix also had on display a prototype billet 3-piece aluminum midplate that conecrushr posted a pic of above, however, I was told at this point it was really only designed with airplanes in mind as it is intended to lay on its side, has special oil and cooling system requirements and cannot accomodate any sideports... so far.
09-20-10, 10:18 PM
#16
I was unaware that rotor weight was the RPM limitation. I thought it was oiling problems and seal friction.
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
Well less weight means less e-shaft flex and less stress on the stationary gears. Plus we can run lighter ceramics. Untill we start running them that high, we will never know the potential.
09-21-10, 10:38 AM
#17
Gold Wheels FTW
I was unaware that rotor weight was the RPM limitation. I thought it was oiling problems and seal friction.
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
I'm not so sure that a peripheral port could make power that high up... I thought the best you could do with Mazda geometry was ~11k before you couldn't move more air into and through the engine. OTOH this was as of a few years ago, maybe there's been advances in intake design since then. And of course they are designing the bathtubs, maybe they can optimize for high RPM internal flow...
09-21-10, 09:52 PM
#18
UMMMMMM... ALS aluminum rotors have already been out for a long time, so what is so great about these rotors? I can see how the aluminum sideplate rotor would maybe be of more interest to most because the cost would be alot less but the all aluminum rotor is going to be big bucks and so far I haven't heard of any spectacular results from ALS aluminum rotors that would justify the cost.
09-22-10, 12:40 AM
#19
It's not just the weight, but that makes a difference. The other weak point is the roll pins holding the rotor gear on. Once you hit a certain RPM range, the gear starts to back off the roll pins pressing it into the side iron. That's why racing beat used to modify the rotor gears. They wont do it any more though (at least not for me)... I've asked.
Hmm never knew this!
09-22-10, 12:53 AM
#20
UMMMMMM... ALS aluminum rotors have already been out for a long time, so what is so great about these rotors? I can see how the aluminum sideplate rotor would maybe be of more interest to most because the cost would be alot less but the all aluminum rotor is going to be big bucks and so far I haven't heard of any spectacular results from ALS aluminum rotors that would justify the cost.
The modified factory rotor eliminates some of the shortcomings of the full billet aluminum units and should be cheaper. Mazda reported years ago that the aluminum rotors had problems with the apex seal grooves widening due to lack of hardening. It's been 2years and so far ALS hasn't given us any long term mileage test results or even a dyno showing the differences in power curve for a NA setup. All we know is that they are making more power with less boost. I wanna know what they are doing in an NA setup. Maybe that info is out there? I haven't seen it. Also there is nothing wrong with some healthy competition. We need more shops doing specialized rotary stuff like this. Mazda can't do it by themselves. It's the only way to get more R&D.
09-22-10, 01:51 AM
#21
The modified factory rotor eliminates some of the shortcomings of the full billet aluminum units and should be cheaper. Mazda reported years ago that the aluminum rotors had problems with the apex seal grooves widening due to lack of hardening. It's been 2years and so far ALS hasn't given us any long term mileage test results or even a dyno showing the differences in power curve for a NA setup. All we know is that they are making more power with less boost. I wanna know what they are doing in an NA setup. Maybe that info is out there? I haven't seen it. Also there is nothing wrong with some healthy competition. We need more shops doing specialized rotary stuff like this. Mazda can't do it by themselves. It's the only way to get more R&D.
Last edited by mannykiller; 09-22-10 at 01:53 AM. Reason: typoooooo
09-22-10, 09:21 AM
#22
Gold Wheels FTW
I was working on a solution more along the lines of the old racing beat method, but this is a much better idea...
09-22-10, 11:49 AM
#23
That all said, these new rotors haven't been tested at all so who knows how they'll work out.
09-22-10, 04:33 PM
#24
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09-22-10, 11:23 PM
#25
The modified factory rotor eliminates some of the shortcomings of the full billet aluminum units and should be cheaper. Mazda reported years ago that the aluminum rotors had problems with the apex seal grooves widening due to lack of hardening. It's been 2years and so far ALS hasn't given us any long term mileage test results or even a dyno showing the differences in power curve for a NA setup. All we know is that they are making more power with less boost. I wanna know what they are doing in an NA setup. Maybe that info is out there? I haven't seen it. Also there is nothing wrong with some healthy competition. We need more shops doing specialized rotary stuff like this. Mazda can't do it by themselves. It's the only way to get more R&D.