8 gallons in 4 hours of idling!
10-19-05, 09:55 AM
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8 gallons in 4 hours of idling!
Sorry for the cross post, but it's not necessarily a Haltech-only question...
OK, I'm at my wits end here.
The car:
1988 10th Anniversary with a stock ported 20B being run by an E11v2. Walbro 255 pump, stock fuel system otherwise.
The problem:
The car has been running fine up until a couple of nights ago. I had barely any gas in the car so I put in 2 gallons from a gas tank with fresh gas in it. I started the car and drove to the gas station where I put in another 6 gallons and 6 oz of premix. I drove about 3 miles up the road and stopped to hang out with some people. About 2 hours later we left to go up the street about a mile. The car started with no problem. I shut down and went inside to eat. That took about an hour. I went to start the car again, but it acted like it was flooded. We didn't have tools with us, so we tried push starting and then towing the car to start it. ZERO luck.
The next day I pulled the plugs on the car to check them. They were BLACK with what looked like carbon all over them as if it had been running really, really rich for a while. No problem, I put new plugs in and the car fired up almost immediately. The problem is, it's got quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust now. It is super rich, to the point where if you stand behind the car for more than 2 or 3 seconds your eyes are burning and you're choking. Hmmm...
I double checked the timing. Perfect, and all plugs were firing. The car is sitting at a pretty solid 1000RPM idle. I've tried to pull more fuel out at idle but when I do it simply starts hunting up and down. I even attempted to use a zero throttle map. Still smoking like a train. I also made sure that ALL fuel corrections were turned off. The car is pulling just under 500mmHg at idle, which is about what it has always done.
I've tried playing with the car for two days now for a total of about 3 or 4 hours. Last night while working on it, it ran out of gas. How bad is your problem when you use 8 gallons in that span of time at IDLE????
Recap:
Car flooded out. Swapped in new plugs and started car. Super rich and smoking from excess fuel. No settings made a difference. Used up 8 gallons in about 4 hours of idling.
Can a fuel pressure regulator go bad in this way? I tried a different MAP sensor but it wouldn't even allow the car to start, so it may be bad. (The car is set up using a stock TII MAP sensor. The one I tried swapping in was a 318.
Ideas and/or solutions would be great!
Reese
OK, I'm at my wits end here.
The car:
1988 10th Anniversary with a stock ported 20B being run by an E11v2. Walbro 255 pump, stock fuel system otherwise.
The problem:
The car has been running fine up until a couple of nights ago. I had barely any gas in the car so I put in 2 gallons from a gas tank with fresh gas in it. I started the car and drove to the gas station where I put in another 6 gallons and 6 oz of premix. I drove about 3 miles up the road and stopped to hang out with some people. About 2 hours later we left to go up the street about a mile. The car started with no problem. I shut down and went inside to eat. That took about an hour. I went to start the car again, but it acted like it was flooded. We didn't have tools with us, so we tried push starting and then towing the car to start it. ZERO luck.
The next day I pulled the plugs on the car to check them. They were BLACK with what looked like carbon all over them as if it had been running really, really rich for a while. No problem, I put new plugs in and the car fired up almost immediately. The problem is, it's got quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust now. It is super rich, to the point where if you stand behind the car for more than 2 or 3 seconds your eyes are burning and you're choking. Hmmm...
I double checked the timing. Perfect, and all plugs were firing. The car is sitting at a pretty solid 1000RPM idle. I've tried to pull more fuel out at idle but when I do it simply starts hunting up and down. I even attempted to use a zero throttle map. Still smoking like a train. I also made sure that ALL fuel corrections were turned off. The car is pulling just under 500mmHg at idle, which is about what it has always done.
I've tried playing with the car for two days now for a total of about 3 or 4 hours. Last night while working on it, it ran out of gas. How bad is your problem when you use 8 gallons in that span of time at IDLE????
Recap:
Car flooded out. Swapped in new plugs and started car. Super rich and smoking from excess fuel. No settings made a difference. Used up 8 gallons in about 4 hours of idling.
Can a fuel pressure regulator go bad in this way? I tried a different MAP sensor but it wouldn't even allow the car to start, so it may be bad. (The car is set up using a stock TII MAP sensor. The one I tried swapping in was a 318.
Ideas and/or solutions would be great!
Reese
10-19-05, 10:17 AM
#3
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Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get hold of a pressure tester yet. I'm hoping to rectify that after work today when I stop by Advance Auto or Auto Zone.
If I'm correct, I should expect around 28-30psi at idle.
Anything else other than fuel pressure sound plausible, John?
If I'm correct, I should expect around 28-30psi at idle.
Anything else other than fuel pressure sound plausible, John?
10-19-05, 12:16 PM
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Another point to ponder: When was the last time the injectors where cleaned? They could be so crapped up they are pouring fuel even though they are closed.
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10-19-05, 03:50 PM
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usually the silver bottled stuff from Wal-Mart. on occasion I've had to go with whatever was at the gas station if I was out.
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
10-19-05, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 20B10AE
usually the silver bottled stuff from Wal-Mart. on occasion I've had to go with whatever was at the gas station if I was out.
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
10-19-05, 04:26 PM
#13
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Stock 550s. Mileage is whatever they had from the motor (unsure of origin) plus mileage j9fd3s put on it plus the estimated 2500 I've put on.
Very likely they're way past needing a good cleaning. LOL.
Very likely they're way past needing a good cleaning. LOL.
10-19-05, 04:59 PM
#14
Mechanical Engineering
is there a "cold" mode on the system? like you didnt drive it to get it up to operating temp so you were still in cold setting thus using more fuel?
10-19-05, 05:15 PM
#15
Senior Member
Heya Reese
Have to agree.. we have several local Fuel Injector places.. and there is always RC.
Pull em and have em cleaned etc.
The local places charge 20 bucks per injector, and give a flow printout after done.
They also are all re-painted and have all new rubber etc on them.
I would grab the phone book and look up local Carb shops.. and ask if they do fuel injectors.
A TII I was working with had a sticky injector on one rotor.. But it didnt always stick.. soo it would start fine.. ruin fine.. just use a TON of fuel. Little rich.. smoked a little at times.. when it wasnt running properly.
Turns out going through all the stock issues that could cause richness.. I pulled her injectors and had em cleaned etc. Voila.. Car ran like a top. Mileage went back to normal etc.
May be worth it to pull em.. most places have same day turnaround.. you could yank em and have the car running the same night. Plus.. it cant hurt to have em cleaned.
Have to agree.. we have several local Fuel Injector places.. and there is always RC.
Pull em and have em cleaned etc.
The local places charge 20 bucks per injector, and give a flow printout after done.
They also are all re-painted and have all new rubber etc on them.
I would grab the phone book and look up local Carb shops.. and ask if they do fuel injectors.
A TII I was working with had a sticky injector on one rotor.. But it didnt always stick.. soo it would start fine.. ruin fine.. just use a TON of fuel. Little rich.. smoked a little at times.. when it wasnt running properly.
Turns out going through all the stock issues that could cause richness.. I pulled her injectors and had em cleaned etc. Voila.. Car ran like a top. Mileage went back to normal etc.
May be worth it to pull em.. most places have same day turnaround.. you could yank em and have the car running the same night. Plus.. it cant hurt to have em cleaned.
10-19-05, 10:32 PM
#16
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**UPDATE**
OK, I went to get a fuel pressure tester today, but the only ones available were Schrader valve-type. I don't see any way to use that on our fuel rails so no pressure test was done.
I did try running some injector cleaner through, but nothing came of that.
I pulled the fuel rails off to generally check things out. The only abnormal thing I saw was on one of the primary injectors. I'm not really familiar with the way side feeds look since I'm a second gen guy, so I'm not sure if this is abnormal or not. When looking straight down at the top of the injectors you can see a metal ring that is the top of the body. Inside that ring is a piston . Sorry my terminology stinks here. Anyway, the inside of the ring is tapered a bit. Two of the inner 'pistons' are flush with the bottom of the tapered area. The third is sitting flush with the top of the ring itself.
I included a bad drawing to try to clarify a bit. My question is, "Does what I am seeing indicate that the odd injector (or the other two) is stuck partially open? Is there a way I can fix this myself?
Also, does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can check the pressure with or without a Schrader valve tester?
Reese
OK, I went to get a fuel pressure tester today, but the only ones available were Schrader valve-type. I don't see any way to use that on our fuel rails so no pressure test was done.
I did try running some injector cleaner through, but nothing came of that.
I pulled the fuel rails off to generally check things out. The only abnormal thing I saw was on one of the primary injectors. I'm not really familiar with the way side feeds look since I'm a second gen guy, so I'm not sure if this is abnormal or not. When looking straight down at the top of the injectors you can see a metal ring that is the top of the body. Inside that ring is a piston . Sorry my terminology stinks here. Anyway, the inside of the ring is tapered a bit. Two of the inner 'pistons' are flush with the bottom of the tapered area. The third is sitting flush with the top of the ring itself.
I included a bad drawing to try to clarify a bit. My question is, "Does what I am seeing indicate that the odd injector (or the other two) is stuck partially open? Is there a way I can fix this myself?
Also, does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can check the pressure with or without a Schrader valve tester?
Reese
10-19-05, 10:53 PM
#17
You Could test the injectors by wiring them in onto the fuel rail outside of the car and then applying fuel pressure, as discribed in the FSM. I would look for one of them or more to be "squirting" alot more fuel then the others or watch and see if one keeps letting fuel pass.
OR
have them sent, 57 dollers for 4 at cruzin preformance, and they look brand ******* new when they come back.
OR
have them sent, 57 dollers for 4 at cruzin preformance, and they look brand ******* new when they come back.
10-20-05, 10:47 PM
#18
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Well, here's an update of sorts...
I pulled both fuel rails off last night so I could put voltage to each injector to see if they were stuck. All 6 clicked when I put the battery to them so at least they aren't stuck. I cleaned them up to get rid of some of the crap that was built up on them and put them back in this evening.
I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from a friend of mine. At idle the fuel pressure is a steady 37 psi. No variation that I noted. This kind of puts me back at square one. I rechecked to verify that there is no form of fuel correction turned on.
What does this leave me with? It still idles fine. The timing light shows that all plugs are firing fine. It still smokes and reeks of fuel way more than normal. Oil and water levels are fine. The fuel pump and fuel filter are both fine. I'm pulling about 480 mmHg at idle. Pulling any more fuel out at idle still causes it to 'hunt'.
Sigh...I was hoping that I'd have an answer by now...
Reese
I pulled both fuel rails off last night so I could put voltage to each injector to see if they were stuck. All 6 clicked when I put the battery to them so at least they aren't stuck. I cleaned them up to get rid of some of the crap that was built up on them and put them back in this evening.
I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from a friend of mine. At idle the fuel pressure is a steady 37 psi. No variation that I noted. This kind of puts me back at square one. I rechecked to verify that there is no form of fuel correction turned on.
What does this leave me with? It still idles fine. The timing light shows that all plugs are firing fine. It still smokes and reeks of fuel way more than normal. Oil and water levels are fine. The fuel pump and fuel filter are both fine. I'm pulling about 480 mmHg at idle. Pulling any more fuel out at idle still causes it to 'hunt'.
Sigh...I was hoping that I'd have an answer by now...
Reese
10-21-05, 05:54 AM
#19
Senior Member
Even if they are visually good.. all it takes is One grain of carbon in the wrong place.. adn the pintle will not seal properly.. Hence... leak..
Not the say that is the 100 percent answer.. BUT.. you never know.. It could be a secondary that is leaking.. If you have a secondary.. changing your idle fuel will not effect the injector that is leaking if it is a secondary.. because it will be doing nothing. Yet still leaking.
If you thin out the fuel curve.. and a secondary is leaking.. you will have two lean as hell pulses.. and one rich or closer to correct.. hence a surging you menioned earlier.
Just thoughts for ya..
Hope you get it pinpointed...
Not the say that is the 100 percent answer.. BUT.. you never know.. It could be a secondary that is leaking.. If you have a secondary.. changing your idle fuel will not effect the injector that is leaking if it is a secondary.. because it will be doing nothing. Yet still leaking.
If you thin out the fuel curve.. and a secondary is leaking.. you will have two lean as hell pulses.. and one rich or closer to correct.. hence a surging you menioned earlier.
Just thoughts for ya..
Hope you get it pinpointed...
10-21-05, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 20B10AE
usually the silver bottled stuff from Wal-Mart. on occasion I've had to go with whatever was at the gas station if I was out.
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
razorback, I'm NOT having flooding problems right now, that's part of why I'm confused.
Also, I know that having them professionally cleaned is best, but do you think running a full bottle of injector cleaner with only 2 or 3 gallons (to keep it concentrated) might help clean them up if that's part of it?
If you use a cleaner, use something good like techron and follow the directions.
We see lots of abused injectors here.
WitchHunter Performance
Fuel injector cleaning & flow testing
10-23-05, 01:52 AM
#21
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Reese are your injectors low or high impediance. I have a few low impediance injectors, two I know are good, if you want to swap around and see what it does.
- Steiner
- Steiner
10-23-05, 04:26 AM
#23
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High-impedence -> easier load for the fuel injector driver to control - also uses less current
Low-impedence -> quicker reacting due to the use of higher current - F1 fuel injectors (hell, most "racing" fuel injectors) are very low impedence - i.e. under 1-ohm!
Low-impedence allows for more precise control, as their reaction time is shortened, but it required higher current drivers.
-Ted
Low-impedence -> quicker reacting due to the use of higher current - F1 fuel injectors (hell, most "racing" fuel injectors) are very low impedence - i.e. under 1-ohm!
Low-impedence allows for more precise control, as their reaction time is shortened, but it required higher current drivers.
-Ted
10-24-05, 11:21 AM
#25
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Ok, I MIGHT have come up with a cause for my problem. Bear with me and then critique. 
I pulled the entire exhaust off the car yesterday from the turbo back. When I started the car there was NO smoke at all even with the cold start maps turned on.
Is it possible that when I was trying to pull start my car I shoved so much fuel through the system that it got into the packing in my presilencer and/or muffler and now it is trying to burn itself off? Also, the inside of the entire exhaust system is heavily coated in carbon/soot. We tried to clean some of it out with a synthetic scrub pad and carb cleaner but I think we just pissed it off. LOL.
Does this sound feasible? If so, I feel a bit foolish. Heh.
Reese
I pulled the entire exhaust off the car yesterday from the turbo back. When I started the car there was NO smoke at all even with the cold start maps turned on.
Is it possible that when I was trying to pull start my car I shoved so much fuel through the system that it got into the packing in my presilencer and/or muffler and now it is trying to burn itself off? Also, the inside of the entire exhaust system is heavily coated in carbon/soot. We tried to clean some of it out with a synthetic scrub pad and carb cleaner but I think we just pissed it off. LOL.
Does this sound feasible? If so, I feel a bit foolish. Heh.
Reese