rx7rcer09

ok so my friends dad has a stock 69 superbee with a 383 motor as he says ive never seen it but he says it runs a stock 9 which is bs and he thinks its faster than a highly moded fd but what do you think would win a

stock Fd or a stock superbee with a 383

SLOASFK

iTrader: (5)

in a straight line? probably the superbee. They may not be 9 second cars, but they did make 425hp IIRC.

rx7rcer09

thats what i told him but in a role i think the fd would win but from a dead start the super bee would win but with my friend driving a fd would crush him and forgot to mention his bee is automatic i think havent really looked in it

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Not the 383. From the factory it put out under 300hp (typically 260-290). The 440 put out quite a bit more. stock superbee is not even going to run close to a 9 sec quarter mile.

SLOASFK

iTrader: (5)

thanks for the correction, I don't know my Mopars very well.

Is there any car at all that runs 9s stock?

rx7rcr, Enzos are rather heavy...

rx7rcer09

thank you all im going to shove this thread in his face i told him a enzo rus a 11 and it weights almost nothing i dont think enen a maclaren runs 9's

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Quickest production muscle car that i ever found listed

1968 Plymouth S/S Barracuda 426 Hemi V8 525hp 10.5sec quarter mile @ 130mph.

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Correct. There is no production car that runs in the 9's. The 1000hp Bugatti Veyron 8.0L runs an 10.2sec quarter mile. Thats the quickest I have ever seen documented.

rx7rcer09

yep good i cant wait untill i get my fd built so i can kick the s##t out of him and make him take his boat home and cry about it and ill prove to him that fd's arent anything like rice as he calls them

bigcox_03

i dont live real far from cbus. ill run his super bee if he thinks fds are rice.

Yellow R1

WHAT? Are you guys serious, Those old musce cars were SLOW as molasses by today's standards.

The street driven (not the 75 cars sold only as non street cars...also known as drag cars only - not to be driven on public roads/highways) Cuda came with 6 different engines, the biigest/baddest motor was the 440 Hemi had a whopping 425 GROSS (not Net) Hp (at the crank mind you). This is, best case, about 350 CRANK Net Hp by today's standards. Not that much power by today's standards, especially in car that heavy. The Hemi ran a 14 flat Quarter @ 102 mph (0 - 60 was 5.8 sec)....both times slower than a stock FD (and the OP talked about a modded FD ).

Fyi, some reading material on the Cuda & Challengers. Quick cars in their day but a modern familiy car is as as fast as most the old Muscle cars (most were 14 - 15.5 sec Quarter mile performers). http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=109513

Top 50 fastest muscle cars: http://www.musclecargarage.com/50fastestmusclecars.html

A stock FD runs ~ 13.5 @ 105 mph.....same as a '69 SuperBee. Modded FD....he's likely toast (and an FD can corner, brake, has airbags, ABS, and better mileage, etc - not the point of this post - but an FD is just a more complete performance package to start with - its got newer technology).

-Matt

Rotary Noob

Well, straight line wise, those old cars (being the boats they were) ran 12-14's with all of their power stock. But they did it with lots of noise, and lots of tire spin. With new tires, cut about a second off of it, because Bias Ply=loss.

Airbags arent safe as they sound, Id rather have the old car without one. Seen one go off? Better yet, seen one launch a 10lb trash can about 50 feet in the air?

About the race though...If that 69 Superbee has new tires on it (and they have tread) and he did some intelligent stuff, like larger wheels (width) and put on bigger tires, he will be pretty good. Not to mention how torque oriented everything was back then. That 383 may only push 300 hp, but it has like 350+ ftlbs. With the right gearing in the rear end, that thing will fly in a straight line. Especially since it probably has a 727 Torqueflight, (emphasis on torque...).

Even with only 300 hp, he has more weight, and better transfer to the rear, so he will probably launch harder than you, if his tires are any good.

The Hemi did get all the glory, but what about the 440 Magnum Six Pack? Completely overlooked almost. Its like Chevy guys talking about the 454, while completely overlooking the 502.

However, Yellow R1 does have a point, in that the RX7 has a better base to build off, because of the advances in technology.

I would want to see both cars and know what each had before I made a judgement, but my thought, is that the Superbee would launch hard and pull a bit, and the RX7 would beat it on top side.

rx7rcer09

good i told him to check out this thread and he says im full of bs because ill be scared to race him with my rice. fyi he also says supras, skylines, evos and stis are all rice but know hes just scared to throw down and put it on the track i told him id race it wint my honda and all he says is ill smoke it and im like lets run it and hes al warys making up excuses but thanks for evryone on their in put ill take pics of his bee btw the dad is the orignal owner so no mods are done

dregg100

iTrader: (34)

it was the 440 six pack (wedge head) and the 426 hemi. there was no 440 hemi.
but deff. aggreed that the old muscle cars were slow as hell compared to todays standards.

fcdrifter13

You guys are forgetting something very important. The hemi is rated, RATED at 425HP, but most fro the factory make 510+ HP, but they are stuck in 2-3 ton cars. Then you have the Yenkos, the COPO, Super cobra, and so on that were merly options at certain dealers but still count as stock cars.

fcdrifter13

Also the 383 Magnum(offerede in the base line superbee) made 335Hp, where as the 426 Hemi(only 166 superbees had them in 69) made the rated 426Hp

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

maybe you are mistaking the rx7 piece of garbage auto for the old school autos that with shift kits are just as capable as manual gearboxes, hell you actually need to have very good reactions with a manual to beat a well built auto. in an old muscle car the auto transmission power loss and weight is negigable because the cars already weigh 3500+lbs. there is no delay between gear changes, my old 3 speed in my elcamino would put the car sideways at 70 if i wasn't careful(kinda scary when driving a tank on wheels).

Yellow R1

As I mentioned, you guys must all be aware. There is a MAJOR difference in SAE net vs. Gross Hp. If you do a conversion, you can typically take about 30% of the Gross Hp to equal SAE Net Hp. So, a 426 Gross Hp Superbee has approx:
426 X 70% = 298 SAE Hp. Now if we convert to RWHP, you will lose ~ 20% (lets be generous & say 17%), so, 284Hp X 83% = 247 rwhp. Its just not that much power by today's standards & the cars were significantly heavier than 2700 - 2800lbs FDs.

Last point regarding some other posters comment on bias ply tires vs modern rubber. There is not a full 1 sec difference. This is evidenced by a car mag (think it was "Musclecar Review" in '91) taking a 427 Cobra & running a 427 (L88 equipped) Vette & using modern rubber (they even put modern '91 slicks on the Vette). The best Cobra times were ~ 12.4 - 12.6 sec. The Vette was consistently trapping high twelves (again, on slicks, not bias ply tires). This was the mag that had the article, http://cgi.ebay.com/MUSCLE-CAR-REVIE...ayphotohosting

See ya,
-Matt

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

Stock 9 second 383 Charger?

The 383 was the base engine with the 426 hemi and the 440 being optional. The 440 would usually beat a 426 hemi on the street as the hemi was"finiky" and needed to be kept tweaked.
A Charger "ain't" light, roughly 4000 lbs and with a 383 (300 hp goss) in it the guys got a 14 - 15 second car.

Oh and the hp ratings?

Here is a bone stock 426 Hemi dyno, all 315 rwhp.




Here is some old school muscle with new rubber.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...s/1267526.html


A stock FD will spit out a 383 Charger, easily. Put on a DP and humiliate him.

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

You do realize that the effects an airbag have on an object sitting directly on top of it are quite different than the effects it has on an object about a foot and a half away that is moving towards it, right? You don't lean on the steering wheel with your chest as you drive do you? That is dangerous, yes. But when you actually sit the proper distance from the airbag it can save your life.

I know many people who have had their lives saved by airbags, even some people that would have been vegetables had their side curtain airbags not deployed when they were T-boned. If you want to eliminate yourself from the gene pool then by all means go ahead and buy an old car without one or rip all the airbags out of the cars you have then go around racing on busy public roads as you so often post about. But please do not spout this type of ignorance about airbags around, it might convince some poor guy to rip out his airbag and wind up getting killed or injured in a collision because he didn't have one.

Yellow R1

Did see/read the fine print? As I mentioned earlier, the mid 10 dec "cars" you noted were DRAG CARS not for use on public roads, had absolutely no Warranty whatsoever, and were equipped with DRs. This is pretty old news & as I indicated before, there were no street driven Muscle Cars even in the 11s (the quickest was the 427 side-oiler Cobra running ~ 12.4s on DRs). Nearly every old street driven Muscle car was a high 13 - 14 sec+ car. They were just HEAVY in general, were undertired, and Hp was measured in GROSS ratings, not SAE (which became industry standard in the mid 70's & got updated slightly again last year).

-Matt

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

RPO Drag car. It's not street legal. Came with documents stating such.

"These vehicles are intended to use in supervised acceleration trials and other competitive events, therefore, they will be sold without warrant. Special stickers will be provided for plant installation (attached to left "A" post) which will read as follows: "This vehicle was not manufactured for use on public streets, roads or highways and does not conform to Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.

All customer orders must be accompanied by a signed disclaimer (sample attached) indicating that the purchaser understands that this vehicle is sold without warranty and does not conform to Federal Vehicle Safety Standards."

The 427 L-88 10.89 is bs as well. I contacted the guy and sent him the article about the car he states ran those times. It was a balanced/blueprinted drag car on slicks which was a test mule for the Chevy engineers.

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

All i said was production car. You could still walk into any dealership and order one of these cars if you had the money. Then how about we move on to the next 10 sec muscle car on the list.

"The 1969 ZL-1 Corvettes

Only 2 of these Corvettes were built with the ZL1 engine and sold to the public (a total of 69 Camaros also received this engine). One was a Daytona Yellow car with side-pipes and the other was a Can-Am White t-top coupe with (what are now known as) black "ZL1" stripes. Adding the ZL1 option added over $4,700 to the price of the vehicle because a host of other options were required (or automatically included). Technically, the ZL1 was a $3,010 option that consisted of an assortment of aluminum cylinder block and heads on top of the $1,032.15 L88 race option.

Unlike popular belief, the engine option was actually widely available via any dealer, the only reason only 2 were delivered was the high price of the option in comparison to the similar (on paper) L88 option. The added cost simply discouraged sales. The ZL1 motor was developed by Chevrolet with the intended purpose of racing. Therefore it was necessary for Chevrolet to produce it as a regular production motor to qualify it. But it is likely that without the efforts of Zora Duntov the engine would never have made it to production. Chevrolet produced the ZL1 motor as a RPO (Regular Production Order) option in 1969 only, and only available as a RPO option on the Corvette. Additionally there were 1969 ZL1 Camaros produced; but only as COPO (Central office Production Order) orders."

"Any 69 ZL1 is easily capable of 11s with any competent driver, and running on drag slicks, can easily run deep into the 10s. The quickest documented ZL-1 was a 10.89 @ 130 by Motor Trend in 1968. Some people thought it was 10.60 @ 132 documented by Motor Trend in Oct 69, but that was actually the same car with a prototype LT2 454 motor. (additional details of this can be found in "Classic Corvette, The First 30 Years" by Mike Mueller, Pages 313 - 319, 2003 edition, published by Crestline - MBI Publishing Co.) Zora Arkas Duntoff himself claimed 10.5 on slicks. As we talk about tires, please remember, this is 1969 technology. Slicks of that era were not as sticky as some of today's radials that we find on some sports cars. On top of this, the ZL1's top speed with stock gearing was close to 200 mph, and it could easily go beyond if the gearing was changed. According to a statement by Gib Hufstater (a Chevrolet developmental engineer) in a 1999 interview, "Tom (Langdon) built the engine, I built the car. He got about 710 horsepower out of it."

Im sure these cars were intended for drag racing. But its still considered a production car. Thats the only claim i have made. I dont even know if you could register the ZL-1 or not. But i do see a licence plate in the picture. But to say " Those old musce cars were SLOW as molasses by today's standards" is a pretty naive.

Yellow R1

No, its not naive. Far from it.
I am VERY aware of the ZL1 Vette (I spent considerable time on the CF during the past 5 yrs discussing this topic). Here's some quick summary points for your "ZL1" post:

1) There were TWO (not 2,000, not 200, TWO) ZL1 Vettes produced. Hardly a mass production vehicle sold to the public. It was basicly one of Zora's "experiments" that he turned into revenue vs scrapping the engine option.

2) Nobody on the CF knows where either of the 2 remaining ZL1s are even located so its doubtful they even exist anymore.

So, in summary, TWO race prepped Vettes which ran a high 10 sec Quarter mile on DRAG SLICKS were, by far, the exception - not the rule. The 2 cars were "one off" drag cars, hardly indicative/representative of stock 60's Muscle Car times & traps. The 2 cars ran ELEVENS on anything but drag slicks.

I guess I look at it this way. If I have enough money, I can buy a one off Ferrari, or or Porsche, etc capable of 10 sec Quarters (ie like the Sultan of Brunei). Anything is "available" if you have enough money (the Sultan has a Ferrari station wagon which is "street legal"). Sure, its street legal, but are they mass produces & sold to the public? Nope. Not anywhere close, but I digress. Even the 2 STOCK ZL1 Vettes were ELEVEN sec cars. Today, stock AMG E55 Sedans have reached the eleven sec barrier.

-Matt