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What's best bang for $ to move to ASP

Old 11-08-04, 07:59 PM
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Question What's best bang for $ to move to ASP

I'm thinking about moving out of SS into ASP next year in my FD and wonder where my limited budget would be best spent. I know suspension is at the top, with springs and bars, but I still need more grunt to catch the Z06s out of the tight ones, so what should I think about doing under the hood? I already have a good catback exhaust, so intake would be about the only thing left for me to mess with. What about cold air intakes - worth the money? Bigger ICs cost an arm and a leg, but would I get any appreciable horsepower gain with them? I'd like to pick up about 30 - 40 real horsepower, not the "claimed" kind that every mod promises (like the 20% K&N is supposed to provide). Suggestions please.

Don
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Old 11-08-04, 08:33 PM
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get some wider wheels and race tires. 17x10 or 18x10 all around. that will make a bigger difference than another 100hp would. keep these possible future modifications in mind when purchasing a suspension because of clearance issues.
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Old 11-09-04, 06:56 AM
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First mod to do in going from SS to ASP would without a doubt be springs; that's what this car needs the most. After springs it would be huge wheels. 18x10's from CCW will take care of that.
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Old 11-09-04, 07:28 PM
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If you are willing to roll your fender lips (no flaring, just the lip), I have a set of 18x10.5 SSR Competitions that would work for you. I have them up for sale for $1500 with some used Hoosiers on the For Sale forum, but would sell them without the tires for $1400 (tires aren't worth much at this point). The 285/30 18 tire size is the best one if you keep the stock 4.1 gears. Doesn't require much of the lip to be rolled in the rear, but the front lip needs to be rolled pretty flat for these to fit.

Definitely the biggest performance gain to make is big wheels/tires, but you'll want stiffer springs right away to keep the body roll down with the increased grip / less clearance of the big tires.

PM me if you are interested.

Bear in mind that the more you open up the intake and exhaust the more likely you'll hit the boost cut from creep. Stock class prepped RX-7's have hit it with just a straight pipe cat back. Defeating the stock boost cut is not ASP legal.

-Andy
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Old 11-09-04, 08:15 PM
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Coilover ~ $1500
TriPoint Swaybars ~ $600
CCW 17x10/18x10 ~ $2000
Hoosiers/Kumho V710 ~ $1000

Winning SCCA Autocross ~ priceless

For all your need, VISA card is your best buddy.
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Old 11-09-04, 09:00 PM
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move to SM2 instead.
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Old 11-10-04, 03:41 AM
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Why SM2 instead?
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Old 11-10-04, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WorldPax
move to SM2 instead.
...and spend an additional $10,000 to be competitive
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Old 11-10-04, 12:36 PM
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Well, the super big wheels are probably not in the picture since I street drive the car quite a bit and I'm not into rollling the fenders to get the rubber to fit, so I'm still planning on trying to squeeze some extra horses out of it and calling that good. What about the larger IC? Will it give me anything other than a big bill? I'm not hoping to be nationaly competitve here, just in my local region where all the ASP cars are actually driven to the track each week, so they're not radically modified either.
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Old 11-10-04, 11:14 PM
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Since you are on a budget, and want more HP, you should get the Cheap Bastard stock airbox mod for $70 shipped. PM me if you any questions. Here is a thread with some info:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/cheap-stock-airbox-mod-121491/

A recent dyno test showed a 12 rwhp gain on a 280 rwhp FD at higher rpm . This was with a stock filter. You can't spend less money and get better performance.

For suspension, start with springs. That won't kill your wallet either .

Good luck, Adam

PS. Since you are only racing locally, will they allow you to use a boost controller?
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Old 11-11-04, 12:40 AM
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First off, I agree, in SM2 you have ALOT more lattitude, you can go nearly to Prepared level, and most local cars will be similar to yours, ie lightly modded two seat sports cars. With a boost controller you can get an easy 40hp that I believe would put you out of SP. A straight exhaust(no cats) will also get you there easily. Carl
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Old 11-11-04, 07:27 AM
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In ASP grip is going to be faster than horsepower.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:52 AM
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I know I seem to harp on this a bit, but to me one of the biggest bang for the bucks is a good clutch and light flywheel. Depends how much you are willing to put up with on the street as far as flywheel manners, ie not the eastiest to start from a dead stop, but will make a huge difference in spool time, I would think, and make the car much more responsive to the throttle. However keep in mind that reduced mass is reduced stored energy so too light of flywheel will be a pain in traffic, but IIRC most RXs have a heavy flywheel to compensate for a lack of torque. I know our first gen had like a 25~ lb flywheel without clutch!!! Just another two cents.

Travis
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Old 11-11-04, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
In ASP grip is going to be faster than horsepower.

Thats true, but both are still important. In some cases, increasing hp can be cheaper than increasing grip
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Old 11-11-04, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by adam c
Thats true, but both are still important. In some cases, increasing hp can be cheaper than increasing grip
Cheaper maybe but what counts is the difference in time on the stop watch. Grip and handling is what counts. Check out all the 120 horsepower wrong wheel drive Civics in STS on skinnier tires that can rape the "faster" cars on many courses.
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Old 11-11-04, 12:42 PM
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I agree, more grip is where you should spend your money. 17x10's should go under stock fender with 275/40's no problem. Shop around and you should be able to find a set for not much more than 1K. Add some springs which are relatively cheap and you are ready to go.

You would need to add serious power to make a big difference and then you probably won't have enough tire to handle it. In any case, in order to make serious power you are going to run into stock fuel management issues if you want to stay legal in ASP. I'm not really defending the rules since they handicap an FD in ASP power wise, and that's part of the reason I'm running in SM2. Plop in a Power FC (which is very reasonable cost wise for what you get), do the big wheels and stiffer springs, and you have a very fun SM2 car that will at the least be regionally competitive.

-Andy
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Old 11-11-04, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
Cheaper maybe but what counts is the difference in time on the stop watch. Grip and handling is what counts.
Originally Posted by RenoCYM
........ I already have a good catback exhaust, so intake would be about the only thing left for me to mess with. What about cold air intakes - worth the money? .................... Suggestions please. Don

He asked about intakes, and bang for the buck. Remember, this is to be a street car too.


Originally Posted by DamonB
Check out all the 120 horsepower wrong wheel drive Civics in STS on skinnier tires that can rape the "faster" cars on many courses.
It will be nice for him to check out all of the civics with low HP numbers. However, the cars he will need to really pay attention to will be the high HP cars that he will be racing against in ASP. Of course, I don't have to tell you about those
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Old 11-11-04, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by adam c

It will be nice for him to check out all of the civics with low HP numbers. However, the cars he will need to really pay attention to will be the high HP cars that he will be racing against in ASP. Of course, I don't have to tell you about those
Horsepower is over rated. Let me explain it to you this way. On your typical autox course how much time do you spend with your right foot flat to the floor compared to the time you must actively manage the throttle against wheelspin or sliding? When your right foot is flat to the floor you are power limited. If you don't spend much time with your foot flat to the floor you are in fact traction limited and 200 more horsepower will not help that. The only time you could use that extra horsepower is during the brief moments in a straight line where you were power limited. Everywhere else that 200 hp doesn't help one iota because you're already out of grip.

If you are already traction limited there is no sense in having more power. You'll only get to use it for a tiny instant whereas increased grip pays off everywhere.

The Z06 horsepower advantage over the FD is not what makes it dominant. It's the fact that it handles very well, has more rubber and its engine's power characteristics means it can pull hard anywhere on the tach. If I never have to give up boost I stand a fighting chance but I'm still at a rubber disadvantage. The 400 horsepower is NOT why the Z06 kills the FD in SS, though more horsepower never hurts. People don't realize that it's the fact that a Z06 can actually put down 400 horsepower and be drivable that makes it so great. Imagine trying to drive a 400 hp turbo FD around compared to that...
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Old 11-11-04, 02:35 PM
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Damon, thanks for "enlightening" me

Originally Posted by adam c
Thats true, but both are still important. In some cases, increasing hp can be cheaper than increasing grip
As you can see, I already agree with you that grip is more important than HP. HP is important, but to a much lesser extent than handling. There is no disagreement on that point. RenoCYM asked about budget mods to help in ASP. My suggestion of an intake mod, and springs were designed to provide low cost items, that would give a good "bang for the buck", which is what he wanted. They will also provide a higher fun factor for street driving. A $1000 set of wheels, and expensive tires to go with them may not be within his budget, and will be of no use on the street.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:21 PM
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Springs, shocks with stock wheels should do you fine. I run stock wheels, it'll at least give you a gearing advantage over those 17x10s. You can be really fast with stock wheels.

If you get a little cash later on do basically the M2 stage 3 mods leaving the stock cat. You should be fine boost wise and only if people get REALLY picky will they notice you might have drilled out a restrictor pill for the WG to reduce boost spikes. Unless your winning nationals no one will care or even know. That should get you to the 300hp at the crank which should be good for most auto-x courses.

If you don't have it already GET A FRONT SWAY BAR! I had one sitting in the garage for years, I finally put it on last year and loved it. Get a custom alignment, run around -2.0 camber, 0 toe up front and stock toe in the rear.

Jeff
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Old 11-14-04, 05:55 PM
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Great suggestions all, but in my case - the car being driven on the street quite a bit, going with springs, some intake help, and maybe a stiffer front sway bar lookslike the choices, figuring in my budget. I've searched the forum and found tons of info on springs, but also lots of complaining about rubbing once the new springs are in and the car is lowered. Is it possible to get stiffer springs - say around 500 front and 450 rear - that don't lower the car enough to encounter rubbing issues with the 245/45/16s I run??
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Old 11-15-04, 12:32 AM
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If budget is a concern just get some Eibach springs. They'll work very well until your driving catches up with the car. I bought some used for $100 4yrs ago and they've treated me very well at auto-xes.

To much emphasis is on the car here, more emphasis on driving fast.

Mods in what order you should do them in, my opinion not fact: I'm counting on you already running a good alignment and R compound rubber.

Front sway bar
Springs and shocks (no fancy stuff unless your already fast)
Good brake pads like Hawk HP+
DP and Cat-back (+mid-pipe for the most HP)
Intake and IC (ECU to support + upgraded clutch if you need one)

If you keep the cat you'll have around 300hp at the crank @ 10psi, that should be good enough for most courses.

I run 245/45/16 Hoosiers and Kumhos with no rubbing issues. I've heard Koni's spring perch is a little lower so you might get a little rubbing with those shocks.
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Old 11-15-04, 04:31 PM
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Very sound advise turbojeff. I am by no means as fast a driver as I should, and hopefully will, be. I already have a Racing Beat cat back, a solid Aadco sway bar, a set of Koni sport shocks and Hawk HP brake pads so the Eibachs would complete your first group of mods for me. Can't do the DP and Mid pipe here in Reno and still drive the car on the street as it won't pass the smog tests, so those are out, but a bigger IC and some sort of intake could still be doable. What rate are your springs and any suggestion there??
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Old 11-15-04, 05:29 PM
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You can pass smog with a DP. Most smog techs won't even know its missing. Emissions will be clean enough to pass, if the car is fully warmed up. A "stealth" intake and intercooler will also get by most smog techs.

I would go with the Eibach springs, based on recommendations from many "experienced" forum members.
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Old 11-15-04, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by adam c
You can pass smog with a DP. Emissions will be clean enough to pass, if the car is fully warmed up. A "stealth" intake and intercooler will also get by most smog techs.

I would go with the Eibach springs, based on recommendations from many "experienced" forum members.
A properly running car will pass emissions with a DP. Of course emission techs vary shop to shop a friend of mine had no problem passing emissions with a DP, CB, intake and IC.

I'm ashamed to tell you I don't know the Eibach spring rates. They are just "off the shelf" FD springs that fit with the stock shocks and rubber upper mounts.

Jeff
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