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Tokico Illumina's Track Worthy?

Old 12-23-06, 02:57 PM
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Tokico Illumina's Track Worthy?

Are they? APplication would be to a FC. Anyone know what the best race springs are that are compatible with these struts?

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Old 12-23-06, 04:02 PM
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They are fine for spring rates below about 450.
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Old 12-23-06, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jgrewe
They are fine for spring rates below about 450.
Im assuming this is not good? sorry, Im quite new to this, can you or someone elaborate on spring rates? Im assuming higher the number the more stiffere the spring is?

What spring rates is everyone using on their track cars?
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Old 12-23-06, 07:54 PM
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Go to the forum at http://www.improvedtouring.com/ . Look in the mazda specific section and do a search. Or just do a search in this forum - the subject has been covered several times. If you want a nice discussion on the tradeoffs in building up an FC track car for SCCA racing (ITS), go look at Crispy's site:

http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/fc/fcpart1.htm

-bill
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Old 12-23-06, 08:16 PM
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I'm using the Tokico's on my FD with 500+ spring rates. On the Tokico application for the FD, I've seen the Tokico's used on the track with some even higher GC coilover rates for years without problems. However, if you have the extra money I would recommend Koni's. You will be able to have the Koni's revalved for higher spring rates if you ever have the need.
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Old 12-23-06, 08:16 PM
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OK, they will work fine with up to about 450lb/in springs. With most set-ups you can buy as a matched set you will get springs this stiff or softer most likely. The job of the shock is to control the spring, a spring that is too stiff will over power the shock and the car will bounce like a pogo stick. The only problem you might have with the Tokicos is after a long session when the oil heats up they will change how they feel. For the most part it isn't a problem but if you're going to race you want a consistant feeling car. At a track day you won't be running 10/10ths so your car shouldn't be able to turn and bite you at a bad time by doing something different than last time you came through a fast section.
For the money they are a good shock just don't think you can run some super stiff springs trying to make the car feel like a go kart.

You will get a million answers as to what people are running for spring rates. Read around here a while and you'll get an idea of what to run on your car. My rates wouldn't help you because there is too much different between yours and mine. (Street car compared to gutted/caged/slicks race car)
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Old 12-23-06, 10:01 PM
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This is what im working with:



definately not a street car, does that help any?

Mahjik, which model koni's are you referring to and what is the retail?
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Old 12-23-06, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Carthik
This is what im working with:

http://i16.tinypic.com/3zld3bo.jpg

definately not a street car, does that help any?

Mahjik, which model koni's are you referring to and what is the retail?
Here you go:

TriPoint Konis

Looks like a fun project, good luck!
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Old 12-23-06, 11:18 PM
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that is indeed a large price gap between toe konis and tokicos. 1200usd vs 450usd... what spring rates can the konis handle stock?

Any other options available that are comparable in price to tokicos?

the tokico DSPEC/HTS series really interests me, as they arent too pricy and seem to be somehow universal for rally/touring. but they dont make any applications for the FC .
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Old 12-23-06, 11:52 PM
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I've got a shock dyno that says you aren't getting critical damping from those Illuminas at those high spring rates.

Nice project, you left a couple wires on the chassis, you must not be serious about this build
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Old 12-24-06, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jgrewe
I've got a shock dyno that says you aren't getting critical damping from those Illuminas at those high spring rates.
Are you dyno'ing FC or FD Tokico application shocks? As I'm not sure or aware they are valved the same.
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Old 12-24-06, 08:42 AM
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FC's but just looking at the diameter of the inserts I doubt the FD has a valve that can do much better unless it is a lot bigger dia. I'm sure they aren't valved the same but can't get a valve that small a dia. to do that kind of damping.
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Old 12-24-06, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jgrewe
FC's but just looking at the diameter of the inserts I doubt the FD has a valve that can do much better unless it is a lot bigger dia. I'm sure they aren't valved the same but can't get a valve that small a dia. to do that kind of damping.
I would be interested to see the dyno on the FD specific application, but not interested enought to yank one off and send it to you. As I mentioned, I've know several people to use with with the GC coilovers at 500/400 for years without problems on the FD (and without the pogo action). However, I still recommend Koni's to people who have the budget.
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Old 12-24-06, 12:19 PM
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The KYB AGX's are another option for the budget minded. They can be found for about $350 complete on ebay and work with the GC coil-over setup. You just need to watch clearances on the inside of the front tires (you can get some rubbing from the collar on the coilover).

I'm running them with 400 lbs/in springs in front and 225 lbs/in in back. I wouldn't recommend running more spring than that with the KYBs.

Also, for the original poster: realize the spring and shock rates vary by both weight of the car as well as suspension geometry. So don't try to compare numbers for the FC with those from the FD. They don't match.

Goods luck,

-b
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Old 12-24-06, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Carthik
that is indeed a large price gap between toe konis and tokicos. 1200usd vs 450usd...
The Koni prices were per pair, so $600 for 4 corners.
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Old 12-24-06, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eagle7
The Koni prices were per pair, so $600 for 4 corners.
That makes a lot more sense, thanks for the heads up. So what can the konis handle on application of an FC? And how much of a hassle is revalving them, and how much would that set me back? re-valved what could they handle?

And thanks for the advice wrankin, im going to look into those KYBs
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Old 12-24-06, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wrankin
The KYB AGX's are another option for the budget minded. They can be found for about $350 complete on ebay and work with the GC coil-over setup. You just need to watch clearances on the inside of the front tires (you can get some rubbing from the collar on the coilover).

I'm running them with 400 lbs/in springs in front and 225 lbs/in in back. I wouldn't recommend running more spring than that with the KYBs.

Also, for the original poster: realize the spring and shock rates vary by both weight of the car as well as suspension geometry. So don't try to compare numbers for the FC with those from the FD. They don't match.

Goods luck,

-b
What do you think of your setup? Can/have you compared it to other coilover setups?
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Old 12-25-06, 12:30 AM
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those KYBs are really tempgint with a price tag of 450cad to me, while the illuminas would be about 580, and the konis 700+. Considering each setup I have listed can accept a GC coilover kit I am lost as to what to go with. Does anyone know what the spring rate limits for each of these setups are on an fc and what they are after the konis have been revalved, or somwhere where I can find this info?

wrankin, are you using the GC coilover kit with your KYBs, if so, please post more info with your satisfaction/dissapointments with the product...
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Old 12-26-06, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Healing
What do you think of your setup? Can/have you compared it to other coilover setups?
Unfortunately I bought the car with everything already built, so I don't have much to compare to (not even a stock FC). Definitely handles differently than my stock FD. Right now I think it's more than sufficient handling, given the skill level of the driver.

-b
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Old 12-27-06, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Carthik
those KYBs are really tempgint with a price tag of 450cad to me, while the illuminas would be about 580, and the konis 700+. Considering each setup I have listed can accept a GC coilover kit I am lost as to what to go with. Does anyone know what the spring rate limits for each of these setups are on an fc and what they are after the konis have been revalved, or somwhere where I can find this info?

wrankin, are you using the GC coilover kit with your KYBs, if so, please post more info with your satisfaction/dissapointments with the product...
if anyone knows the andswer to the questions above please let me know.

wrankin, can the kyb's be re-valved?
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Old 12-27-06, 10:00 PM
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There is significant difference between racing and doing track days. On track days, the tendency is to go as fast as comfort will allow, backing off for a few turns or a lap when needed. With racing, you are going full out (or should be) for all 15 to 20 laps. You are also pushing the limit of your car and your skills all the time due to the pressure of competion.

The difference in shocks will show up:

- As the spring rates increase
- When you go racing vs. track days

As stated previously, the job of the shock is to control the spring, particularly on rebound. The higher the spring rate, the more work the shock has to perform. Similarly, the more laps you do at full speed, the more heat the shock has to do and the more work the shock has to perform.

When I talk about the difference between racing and track days (and I have done both), in racing when everything is working, you are doing 15 to 20 laps all within .2 seconds of each other as well as at or very close to your best times. On track days, you tend to go fast for a lap or two, and then back off once you over-extend yourself or need to gather your thoughts before attacking the track again.

There is a reason that the Tokico's, Koni's, and KYB's are at different price points.

- If you are learning and have a tight budget, the KYB's will be adequate. However, as your skills improve, you will rapidly outgrow them and need a better shock. If you are just learning, use stock shocks or equivalent and save your money for better shocks when you are ready. Personally, I would not waste my money on KYB's.
- If you are just doing track days, the Tokicos should be adequate up to moderate (450 lb or so) spring rates. However, under racing conditions, they will fall off after 5 to 10 laps, particularly at higher spring rates. Note that none of the companies that provide racing suspensions for the 2nd gens recommend Tokico's.
- If you are serious about racing and performance, get the Koni's (sport versions). There are other shocks available that are quality racing shocks you can read about on various web sites. I believe ISC Racing sells Bilsteins, and there are probably others for the second gen.

You don't need the double adjustable Penske's and such, but a good shock is money well spent.

Finally, if the $250 to $300 difference in KYB's and Koni's is significant, you may want to rethink the idea of going on track to begin with. A single off track due to shocks that fail under racing conditions can cost you more than that.

I have tried doing it on the cheap, and it doesn't work.
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Old 12-28-06, 12:04 AM
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Ive got a set of Brand new Never opened, never installed Illuminas that I bought as spares for my racecar a few months ago, if your interested in them, Ill hook you up with a decent price on them..PM me if your interested.

Good luck with your project, just finnishing mine up myself!
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