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Time Trial Beginner

Old 10-02-03, 08:13 PM
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Time Trial Beginner

Any of you experienced road racer / open trackers please comment.

I intend to use my 93 touring for time trial events (SOLO I) and lapping days next year. The tracks used are generally tight corners with fairly short straights. Going by others' results, I would expect top speed to be 120 mph on any of these tracks unless I spring for a driving school on Mosport.

Budget is tight as I've already done a ton of engine mods. (Not all my fault, maybe a little ) I've also got Hawk HP+ pads and braided lines, with Motul 600 in the system. Gotta pick up some Speedbleeders. So I would like some insight on where to start suspension wise.

1) OK - Stock Suspension, Street Tires

I can play with tire pressure and alignment. I've found my S-03's to be an excellent street tire in the stock size. Where should I start for tire pressure? I'll have a pyrometer and good pressure guage with me.

Can anybody add to what Pettit recommends for alignment specs?

Pettit Recommendations

What should be the next step?

2) R-compounds? Which ones?

Might be stuck driving to the tracks. Up to 275 km one way. Working on a truck / trailer rig, might happen!

Setup is: 1 warmup lap, 1 hot lap, 1 cooldown lap, 4 sessions per day. Some lapping time is available before and after, but tires will be cold before timed laps. During lapping days I have no problem with pitting every few laps to keep things from overheating. (and some data recording of course )

If I can't find a spare set of stock wheels I may drive these on the street occasionally. So I imagine that means A032s or RA-1s? Yokohama is a series sponsor, they draw for a set of tires every race weekend for those using Yoks.

3) Got vicious tire hop on a recent visit to the strip (will not happen again, promise )

So I would like to do something about the bushings if budget allows. Anybody tried teflon lined spherical bearings in place of stock bushings? Noise is no longer an issue with this car

4) Would like to do something about swaybar mounts.

Can you use Tri-Point's mounts and modular sway bar effectively with stock touring suspension? Do they still make them even? Do they make a rear bar to work with the front?

5) Budget does not allow for coilovers I would like, as I have expensive taste and a thin wallet. I also refuse to buy something I will want to get rid of in the near future, just because I can afford it now. Same goes for big wheels, tires and brakes Though I know these topics get rehashed a lot more than tire pressures and sway bars, so I am leaving them off here on purpose.


Sorry for the long post, but if some of the experienced guys can go over this it gives the rest of us a good chance to learn
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Old 10-03-03, 09:54 AM
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1) Stock suspension has got to go ... if you want your times to improve. Po man route ... Koni Yellows (~$450), upgraded front swaybar (RB ~$200?), another set of stockers for R-compounds (~$350).

2) R-compounds will be limited by how much you can spend. It's hard to beat the value of the Kumho V700's. But, if you must drive to the track on these tires ... not a good idea. I can go on at length about the benefits of a hitch and a tire trailer, but you'll never appreciate it until the unforeseen happens to you. Anyhow, RA1's are supposed to wear like rocks and increase in grippiness as the tread is worn down. But, if you're like a lot of us fanatics .... more grip? Yes, please!

3) I wouldn't spend the money on bushings unless you really want to. Yes, they'll help ... but I'm sure your driving skills will need to improve as you start running sticky rubber and have stiffer suspension components. If bushings are worth anything, I'd say it's a couple tenths here or there.

4) The stock mounts aren't that bad. And considering the cost to replace those versus breaking a Widefoot or Tri-Point bracket .... I'll just continue replacing mine with the stock mounting brackets. And hey, they lasted over 50,000 miles of hard driving ....

5) Coilovers are worth the expense. But in the meantime, I can't say enough about how much of a difference a set of good shocks will make. Koni Yellows are a good segway into the world of coilovers. I've got my eye on some Penskes, and I'll tell ya ... they ain't cheap. But once you start, it'll be hard to stop. First, coilovers, then bigger wheels, then stickier rubber ....
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Old 10-03-03, 10:57 AM
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Re: Time Trial Beginner

Originally posted by TYSON
Any of you experienced road racer / open trackers please comment.

I intend to use my 93 touring for time trial events (SOLO I) and lapping days next year. The tracks used are generally tight corners with fairly short straights. Going by others' results, I would expect top speed to be 120 mph on any of these tracks unless I spring for a driving school on Mosport.

Budget is tight as I've already done a ton of engine mods. (Not all my fault, maybe a little ) I've also got Hawk HP+ pads and braided lines, with Motul 600 in the system. Gotta pick up some Speedbleeders. So I would like some insight on where to start suspension wise.

1) OK - Stock Suspension, Street Tires

I can play with tire pressure and alignment. I've found my S-03's to be an excellent street tire in the stock size. Where should I start for tire pressure? I'll have a pyrometer and good pressure guage with me.

Can anybody add to what Pettit recommends for alignment specs?

Pettit Recommendations

What should be the next step?

2) R-compounds? Which ones?

Might be stuck driving to the tracks. Up to 275 km one way. Working on a truck / trailer rig, might happen!

Setup is: 1 warmup lap, 1 hot lap, 1 cooldown lap, 4 sessions per day. Some lapping time is available before and after, but tires will be cold before timed laps. During lapping days I have no problem with pitting every few laps to keep things from overheating. (and some data recording of course )

If I can't find a spare set of stock wheels I may drive these on the street occasionally. So I imagine that means A032s or RA-1s? Yokohama is a series sponsor, they draw for a set of tires every race weekend for those using Yoks.

3) Got vicious tire hop on a recent visit to the strip (will not happen again, promise )

So I would like to do something about the bushings if budget allows. Anybody tried teflon lined spherical bearings in place of stock bushings? Noise is no longer an issue with this car

4) Would like to do something about swaybar mounts.

Can you use Tri-Point's mounts and modular sway bar effectively with stock touring suspension? Do they still make them even? Do they make a rear bar to work with the front?

5) Budget does not allow for coilovers I would like, as I have expensive taste and a thin wallet. I also refuse to buy something I will want to get rid of in the near future, just because I can afford it now. Same goes for big wheels, tires and brakes Though I know these topics get rehashed a lot more than tire pressures and sway bars, so I am leaving them off here on purpose.


Sorry for the long post, but if some of the experienced guys can go over this it gives the rest of us a good chance to learn
Tyson.

I just finished my first season in SOLO I with an FD. Check out my website for alignment tips, mods, etc.

http://www.mantissaracing.com/Mantis.../RX-7/RX-7.htm

As far as suspension goes, skip the bushings and focus on shocks/springs. The Konis work well- I'm using GABs with M2s coilover kit, 650/450 springs. I wouldn't worry too much about the swaybar mounts right away, but you might want to consider replacing them fairly soon.

And, of course, safety mods should be first priority.

Gene
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Old 10-03-03, 11:48 AM
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Along with safety ... anything you can do to improve cooling. Since I'm gearing the FD more towards road racing than auto-x, that's tops on my list of things to do. Radiator, if you haven't already done that. Dual oil coolers, and if you can ... upgraded oil coolers. All the solid FD's that I know of run with the Mazdaspeed GTC nose ... for better cooling. Vented hood would also help. I know it's a lot of money upfront; but it's better than having to worry about overheating your engine.
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Old 10-03-03, 12:12 PM
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Yes, cooling is important, but you can get adequate cooling with the stock nose and stock rad, particularly with dual oil coolers.

Seal off the radiator, add some ducting (AL is OK) to channel the airflow, and open the stock inlet by bolting the bottom of it down to the belly pan and your car will not overheat (assuming a properly functioning cooling system).

My car's done over 20 track events including back-to back, 2 day double stints at 13 PSI boost and have not had a single overheating problem- with one oil cooler.

Gene
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Old 10-03-03, 02:11 PM
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Tyson, red has good advice, if you want to discuss at length, you can call me @707-696-2705. Carl
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Old 10-06-03, 09:17 AM
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I've got an M2 rad now, I'm not too worried about engine related stuff at the moment. I will be keeping a watchful eye on temperatures for sure.

I was under the impression that the stock sway bar mounts were quite fragile? And that when they break it's possible the frame would crack as well? I was also thinking of the bushings solely because of my wheel hop problems.

One thing preventing me from trying the coil overs first is the prep points they come with. I already have 25 prep points and the points that come with coilovers put me up another class. This means tube frame cars it also means mandatory cage. Bushings and roll bars don't put me up a class, they just max out the class I'm in.

I've been having a hell of a time finding a fire extinguisher locally. Several places sell tiny chromed ones with flames, etc. but they are $60 and I would need 2 because they are smaller than the minimum required by opur series for points reduction. I can't find a 5 lb extinguisher with a steel strp in stores. Looks like I need to order one.

Thanks for the replies guys!
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Old 10-06-03, 11:53 AM
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Re: Time Trial Beginner

Originally posted by TYSON Any of you experienced road racer / open trackers please comment.

1) OK - Stock Suspension, Street Tires

I can play with tire pressure and alignment. I've found my S-03's to be an excellent street tire in the stock size. Where should I start for tire pressure? I'll have a pyrometer and good pressure guage with me.

Can anybody add to what Pettit recommends for alignment specs?

Pettit Recommendations

What should be the next step?
Agree with above posts. If you have R1/R2 shocks, upgrade your springs and your sway bars. I'm not keen on adjusting pressures. I start with 32 psi cold, and leave them alone. I don't use Pettit's settings. I do -1.5 camber, zero toe fr/rr. Simple and works fine.

2) R-compounds? Which ones?
Strongly recommend Kumho V700 Victoracers. RA-1s or street tires (even if they're S03s) won't keep you competitive in Solo I based on your format, (only 1 warm-up lap).

3) Got vicious tire hop on a recent visit to the strip (will not happen again, promise )

So I would like to do something about the bushings if budget allows. Anybody tried teflon lined spherical bearings in place of stock bushings? Noise is no longer an issue with this car
Rear bushings are important. If you haven't replaced your original ones, the first symptom of worn out rear bushings is snap-oversteer (throttle on). Drag racing aggravates worn rear bushings, so quit drag racing, or at least quit doing standing starts.

4) Would like to do something about swaybar mounts.
I have stock sway bar mounts with Tri Point front sway bar mount reinforcers. Works fine. The only time I've screwed mine up was when my front end bottomed out on a wooden covered bridge.

5) Budget does not allow for coilovers I would like, as I have expensive taste and a thin wallet. I also refuse to buy something I will want to get rid of in the near future, just because I can afford it now.
This isn't crucial, but upgraded springs and sway bars will get you 85% of the way there.

Same goes for big wheels, tires and brakes
This is crucial. Of course your Solo I rules will dictate the amount of mods you can do, but larger/wider wheels and tires, larger calipers and rotors are all good for track performance. Your HP Plus pads should be ok based on your format, but I'd switch to EBC Green Stuffs for lapping. These bite harder when warmed up, and don't fade as quickly as the HP Plusses.

Last edited by SleepR1; 10-06-03 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 10-06-03, 12:16 PM
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Re: Re: Time Trial Beginner

Originally posted by gfelber
Tyson.

I just finished my first season in SOLO I with an FD. Check out my website for alignment tips, mods, etc.

http://www.mantissaracing.com/Mantis.../RX-7/RX-7.htm
Nice website, Gene. So you like the FD3S compared with two other 911s eh? Love the brake ducts on your No. 77 car.
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Old 10-06-03, 01:06 PM
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That was my first and only visit to the dragstrip, but I have had wheel hop before. I am concerned about it happening coming out of a corner, so bushings are on my wish list for this winter.

As for bigger wheels, tires, brakes, I can add all those for free, as I am up 5 classes from my starting class anyway. We don't have a maximum prep point level for engine mods unless you bring a dyno printout that shows you did all these mods and made less power than stock.

If I stay in the class I'm in I have a good shot at the class championship, as no one entered it all this year As for overall competitiveness, I am really only interested in competing for the rookie championship.

Thanks
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Old 10-06-03, 03:33 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Time Trial Beginner

Originally posted by SleepR1
Nice website, Gene. So you like the FD3S compared with two other 911s eh? Love the brake ducts on your No. 77 car.
Thanks Manny. It's really a tough call. I'd say that I like the RX-7 better than my 911s when it comes to bang-for-the-buck track mods. I'll take the 911 for a daily, though.

If I had to do it all over again, however, I'd probably pick up a track-only 911 that someone else lost their **** on.

Gene
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Old 10-06-03, 03:41 PM
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IMHO, the Rx7 is the hands down faster track car...but on the flip side the 911 is apparently much more reliable compared with the recent rash of problems I've had with boost leaks, and hot-running during the summer in my FD3S. These problems have led me to retire the Rx7 from serious open lapping altogether. Oh sure, I'll take the FD3S out for a few hotlaps during my MDC events, but I can't do four to five 20 to 30-minute sessions in one day anymore...
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Old 10-06-03, 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by SleepR1
IMHO, the Rx7 is the hands down faster track car...but on the flip side the 911 is apparently much more reliable compared with the recent rash of problems I've had with boost leaks, and hot-running during the summer in my FD3S. These problems have led me to retire the Rx7 from serious open lapping altogether. Oh sure, I'll take the FD3S out for a few hotlaps during my MDC events, but I can't do four to five 20 to 30-minute sessions in one day anymore...
Sorry Tyson, don't mean to steal your thread, but this is pertinent.

Manny, I used to have some overheating issues until I sealed the radiator real well (and actually coincided with a larger rad upgrade), fabbed two CF ducts that channel air to the radiator and do not allow it to spill off the "sides" , added the 99 front lip, and did what equates to N-Tech's shark mod go here .

Have you tried any of these?

Gene
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Old 10-06-03, 04:41 PM
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I'm glad you did. I used to have N-Tech bookmarked but when I started this thread found they must have changed their web address.

Are you just jamming the centre hole open farther there?
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Old 10-06-03, 06:00 PM
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yep
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Old 10-06-03, 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by gfelber
Sorry Tyson, don't mean to steal your thread, but this is pertinent.

Manny, I used to have some overheating issues until I sealed the radiator real well (and actually coincided with a larger rad upgrade), fabbed two CF ducts that channel air to the radiator and do not allow it to spill off the "sides" , added the 99 front lip, and did what equates to N-Tech's shark mod go here .

Have you tried any of these?

Gene
Sealed off my FMIC and Koyo rad with ducting foam (thanks to CrispyRx7 and FritzFlynn for the ideas). It's sealed very well, but in 90-degree F ambient heat, I'm only good for 10 to 14 minutes before having to cool down again (Putnam Park). It's just about the time I need to drain my oil catch can too As I said the FD3S is a FAST track car. Nothing can touch us for the money we've got in our cars...FD3Ses are just not very hearty track cars (like a 993 Carrera RS). Best of luck with the Solo I stuff guys! Go out there and kick ****!
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Old 10-07-03, 01:59 PM
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Manny,

Are you using an FMIC???

Gene
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Old 10-07-03, 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by gfelber
Manny,

Are you using an FMIC???

Gene
Yee-up...see my sig links...my FD3S is a daily driver, street-fighter, canyon carver, and occasional autocrosser/track-lapper...
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Old 10-07-03, 03:50 PM
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Don't you think the IC has something to do with your overheating? All the RX-7 track guys I know with FMICs are having cooling problems.

Gene
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Old 10-07-03, 04:06 PM
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Tyson, sorry for the off-topic discussion with Gene...

Gene, actually the overheating is not the major issue for me. FWIW, I have not overheated the motor, but the motor does run warmer than I like during a hot summer lapping day (110 C to 115 C). There is another thread regarding this matter, and apparently 110 C to 115 C is not uncommon for turbo FC/FD Rx7s REGARDLESS of which type of IC (SM or FM) you have. https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=212134

It's all the other stuff that goes wrong when you push a mostly street-prepared FD3S as hard as I do during track lapping. For me to drive at the pace I want (9/10ths every lap for 25 minutes x 5 sessions for the day), I'd need to convert my FD3S to full track, or buy a different dedicated track car (like a Radical SR3 http://www.radicalsportscars.com/frames.htm ). Neither are viable options, and thus the forced retirement of my FD3S from serious track lapping (while everything on my FD3S is still relatively "fresh" from the rebuild and mods earlier this year)...

Last edited by SleepR1; 10-07-03 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 10-07-03, 07:23 PM
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I (respectfully) disagree about the FMIC, particularly as regards discussions and (some...not you) members of this forum. To preserve bandwidth, you and I can or should take that offline.

Totally agree about other stuff, however. This is by far the biggest cost in tracking our cars. However, I would argue that it's still cheaper than many cars out there, particularly given the performance that these cars are capable of. Exceptions might be the Radical (just came out with the turbocharged version) .

Less powerful, but nearly as entertaining and certainly much cheaper...do what my wife and I did- Spec Miata.

Examples? We built a 1990 for less than $7.5K + $3K for the car.

Want tires? Try $160 each...shaved and mounted in the 205-50-15 variety. They'll typically last a season (unless you're fighting for a championship (which I'm not)) . Wheels? About $100 each, forged (Team Dynamics) and 13 lbs.

Used tranny...$150.
Brake rotors...$60.
Brake pads...$150 (all 4). Expect at least a season on a set (about 10 races including qualifying).

The list goes on, of course

Gene
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Old 10-08-03, 10:54 AM
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[QUOTE]
I've been having a hell of a time finding a fire extinguisher locally. Several places sell tiny chromed ones with flames, etc. but they are $60 and I would need 2 because they are smaller than the minimum required by opur series for points reduction. I can't find a 5 lb extinguisher with a steel strp in stores. Looks like I need to order one.



You can buy these from most any marine store. I work at a boat dealership, and for Solo I rules, I got a 5 lb ABC, IIRC, type marine extinguisher. Then you can get the steel strap for ~$8.00. About 30.00 total. Make sure that you get the one with the gauge on it, not a telltale indicator device to assure you of the status of the extinguisher, most inspectors will want to see that it is full.
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Old 10-08-03, 11:11 AM
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Our region requires 10-B:C, but it look like you'll need a 40-B:C. I found one for a low price of $31 at http://www.safetyemporium.com/safety/extinguishers.html

I did not see a bracket, but they are available elsewhere. For example: http://www.afpfire.com/Merchant2/mer...roduct_Code=84

Gene
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