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Spec GT-2 Racing

Old 12-01-05, 11:11 AM
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Spec GT-2 Racing

What's the deal with these cars:

http://www.sevensonly.com/super7_racing.htm

Anyone drive one ?

I like the specs:

Tube frame/Fiberglass body
Peripheral Port Rotary Engine
265HP/1795 lbs. or in race form: 340 HP/1690 lbs
Weber 48 IDA Carburetor
Mazda RX8 Transmission
Spec Tires & Wheels
Spec GT-2 Car
Turnkey, Ready to Race!

:-) neil
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Old 12-01-05, 11:25 AM
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Yes, there are quite a few of those in the SCCA GT2 class. However, I don't think any of those drivers are on this forum.
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Old 12-01-05, 01:08 PM
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They are fast, well made, tires and brakes last a long time. Well developed over the years. I know the shop that builds them. They also did my cage and some suspension.
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Old 12-01-05, 02:28 PM
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Very few of them running and I don't think they're allowed to anywhere EXCEPT Buttonwillow. Correct me if I'm wrong!

Great package!
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Old 12-01-05, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
Very few of them running and I don't think they're allowed to anywhere EXCEPT Buttonwillow. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Yeah, you're wrong. It says right on the page linked that they're GT-2 legal, which means they can run anywhere with the SCCA including the Runoffs.

Probably not the fastest car in the class, but not a bad starting point. Looks like it's riding like a 4WD truck, though!
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Old 12-01-05, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by christaylor
Yeah, you're wrong. It says right on the page linked that they're GT-2 legal, which means they can run anywhere with the SCCA including the Runoffs.

Probably not the fastest car in the class, but not a bad starting point. Looks like it's riding like a 4WD truck, though!
Thanks for the correction! Might be old info I'm recalling. Like alot of other things SCCA, it's gray sometimes

Neil, if time permits make a trip to Buttonwillow. They make regular apperances on track there.
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Old 12-01-05, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
Thanks for the correction! Might be old info I'm recalling. Like alot of other things SCCA, it's gray sometimes

Neil, if time permits make a trip to Buttonwillow. They make regular apperances on track there.
wait.. you're in FL.. maybe not
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Old 12-01-05, 03:14 PM
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Very well made cars. Yes, tube framed and uses first gen suspension pieces to keep costs down. Here's the kicker - they have the lotus link rear end! For me that's huge. They were at the Runoffs with a GT2 that they didn't have time to properly prep and I believe they ran in the top ten for the race (not sure how high).

They are looking to campaign the same type of chassis to GT1 specs with a either a 13b singled or 20b! I forget witch exactly.

~Mike
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Old 12-01-05, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BFGRX7
Very well made cars. Yes, tube framed and uses first gen suspension pieces to keep costs down. Here's the kicker - they have the lotus link rear end! For me that's huge. They were at the Runoffs with a GT2 that they didn't have time to properly prep and I believe they ran in the top ten for the race (not sure how high).

They are looking to campaign the same type of chassis to GT1 specs with a either a 13b singled or 20b! I forget witch exactly.

~Mike
What was their time off the top runner?
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Old 12-01-05, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
Thanks for the correction! Might be old info I'm recalling. Like alot of other things SCCA, it's gray sometimes

Neil, if time permits make a trip to Buttonwillow. They make regular apperances on track there.
I've been to Buttonwillow twice doing DE with my Mercedes 500E (clock and counter-clockwise).

Saw the cars in the shop, but not on the track.

:-) neil
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Old 12-01-05, 06:27 PM
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These are nice cars, built well, but unfortunately the original thinking and developement was flawed in my opinion. The cars are tube frame but use all 1st gen RX7 steering and suspension parts. This includes the struts(why on a tube frame car?), steering box, control arms, hubs and spindles, as well as the rear end. The brakes and rear end have had to be modified to last, but the car could have been alot better. the builder, Sevens Only, was the west coast pro7 masters in the day and had alot of 1st gen parts around the shop. So there thinking was to build a spec car out of the left over pro7 parts and race in their own series. Problem is the cars are a bit pricey and people didn't flocked to the series, so the car was brought up to the GT2 specs. The chassis is solid I just don't like the suspension and driveline parts. A couple of local guys do well with the cars in GT2 but I don't think they would be competitive at the runoffs with the likes of Dave Finch.
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Old 12-01-05, 07:15 PM
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SPEC GT was built for Pro7 guys to upgrade to using parts off their Pro7 car to save $$. And go faster. Not a national class.

Guys started buying their SPEC GT car and race only in GT2. Then guys thought about it and realized that if they podium in GT2, they can get some dollar$, sponsors for a popular national class, and race for a national championship (The Runoffs).

They have upgraded the rear axel to floating hubs too, real nice sturdy Speedline stuff. The 1st gen struts will be a limitation of the car, but remember in DSP and CSP autocrossing the Rx friggin 3 has taken numerous National Championships with a leaf sprung rear to boot....................
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Old 12-05-05, 12:07 PM
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88GT,

Sorry for the late return post. I think they qualified seventh, 1:32.5s (or there abouts). I'll find out exactly where they qualified and placed after they get back from the 25 hours @ Thunderhill.

Tims,

I wouldn't necessarily say that using struts on a racing car is such a bad thing in this situation. For starters, it allows for very low operating costs (they provide weekend track support). Also, Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes have followed that path with much success over the years. Is it the optimum set up? No. Inexpensive and deadly effective, YES!

~Mike
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Old 12-05-05, 12:46 PM
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The 25 was tough. Tom and crew left with 4 broken rearends, and were on the trailer at or around Midnight.

Marcus
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Old 12-05-05, 01:57 PM
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They don't run diff coolers on the SPEC-GT cars last I checked back in May.
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Old 12-07-05, 01:47 AM
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Completely different animal than full on GT-2 SCCA national tube framed 3rd gen bodied cars. Sevens Only has pretty dang good rep for some of the race products that they sell and my understanding is that they are trying to give racers without unlimited budgets an opportunity to race "spec" GT tube framed cars with some more limited components so it isn't a specnding war. Sounds like they have tried to get some increased wear components in the car and limit the tire budgets. Can't really compete with SCCA national cas unless you go with a pretty upgraded package, which they appear to have developed pretty well and also sell. I've been interested in one of those cars for some time, but it just doesn't fit the classing in the area that I am currently in.

I believe that they "make" 12A peripheral port housings for those cars by filling the stock inlets and boring the ports rather than using the insanely expensive Mazda Motorsports PP housings.
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Old 12-07-05, 12:19 PM
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Yes I can confirm that they dont use MFR housings in their engines. They use their own hommade owns. They look to be pretty good cars though.
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Old 12-08-05, 05:17 PM
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BFGRX7

Using struts to save money is not your best setup. And comparing a purpose built tube frame race car to a modified street car is apples and oranges. Trans Am cars don't use struts and neither do the new GTOr grand am cars or the new RX8 grand am car. Using a a double A arm, spindle, spring , and shock will be the cheapest setup(this is the most common setup for all classes of GT cars), unless you already have the first gen RX7 parts. they were looking to move their pro7 customers to a new car and then they could use the pro7 parts the customers already had. Nice program if you can get enough cars to run your own group or series, but when you try to race in GT2 it just doesn't work. The cost of these cars in my opinion is to high for what you get. I like the idea, but it could be better for the same price.
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Old 12-13-05, 12:47 PM
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TMS,

I agree with some of what you're saying, and I stated that in a previous post. His cost are a bit high and I've told Tom (co - owner) so. I've also told him that he may want to consider adopting multiple price points (tube frame only, complete chassis only, and everything included).

My point is that a strut-supensioned car is capable of being engineered where as it is not only competitive, it's a winner. I've seen it happen with the M3's that were banned in Grand Am in its earlier days. I'm sure you've seen this occur in Grand Am GT where they are, in fact, comparing apples to oranges( GT prep 1&2). You see it happening with Porsches and BMW's in Grand Am, ALMS, Speed, etc.

http://www.grandamerican.com/CONTENT...mode=bookmarks

Your point is that a tubed frame car should, in fact, have an a-arm setup to truely be competitive amoungst other tube chassis cars. My point is it is all in the development time and funding available that will determine if you're truely going to be competitive at the SCCA runoffs, or Grand Am GT , you'll need the time and resources to do so.

By the way, qualifying seventh at the Runoffs is considered competitve and considering they've had little to no experience with the track has me looking forward to what they can do next.

~Mike
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Old 12-13-05, 05:38 PM
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comparing modified production cars built into race cars to purpose built race cars is apples to oranges. This is why when given the chance to build a modified production car or a purpose built tube chassis Mazda, TRG(Pontiac), and others built the tube chassis. Why? Because it will be more competitive, durable, and repairable/serviceable. BMW and Porsche are hampered by the rulebook. They have to use the modified street car and are literally stuck with the strut setup and these cars have been altered to make them work as best they can(look to see these cars struggle in the next few years). But we are talking about building a race car from a clean sheet of paper. Why limit yourself with a modified stock setup. I wouldn't even mind if it was a racing strut front suspension(not sure if this exists), but using a few OEM/stock parts is just not the best setup. I realise that this setup can still be driven very fast. It just will not hold up to a really well driven completely racing bred chassis. I don't hold the Runoffs in high regard since alot of racers don't run the race for many reasons including cost and travel. Lots of fast cars and drivers don't race in the SCCA and the runoffs. Don't get me wrong I like the cars, I like Tom and his crew(they do a great job), I just wish it was a little better and this would help it sell better in my opinion. I like the proportions and finish of the body and I always thought the chassis was very solid and well made. I am sure it could be easily modified, but this just increases the cost.
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Old 12-13-05, 11:17 PM
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Well, OK!

Tim, I've agreed that when you compare tube framed to unit body, you're comparing apples to oranges. I'm also saying that Grand Am is in fact not only comparing apples to oranges, they are making them compete against each other in the GT class.

Now if Grand Am is looking to remove manufacturer support from their series, fine. They will create rules that will limit development in production-based cars and foster a technical advantage for tube chassis. Since Grand Am is a NASCAR produced series that, could be the case. Notice how you say we should look to see production (strut based) cars to struggle in the next few years. OK, but they're winning now.

Looking at the ALMS, you can see quite the opposite transpiring where sedans will be contesting for the GT championship. Manufacturers would love to push their products in a race series - a series that would allow them to highlight their technical capabilities in a chassis that is easily identifiable and relatable to the consumer. The sedan is the corporate staple in the automotive industry. Most are engineered with strut-type suspensions. The logical (and popular) process would be to showcase said vehicle as opposed to building a purpose built race car. Quite a bit cheaper and allows more manufacturers into the sport which equals full fields and happy fans.

I state all of this for you to consider all ramifications. Yes, struts and a subframe from a 1st gen may not be optimal from an engineering standpoint, but it is competitive and cheap to replace and can be engineered to be more efficient. The original question asked what the deal was on the car. It's fast, competitive but pricy.

Tim, so much of what you've said I agree with, especially some of the best drivers not going to the Runoff due to costs. So I'll just say it looks like we agree on the overall picture-just not the intricacies in the middle.

~Mike
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Old 12-14-05, 05:53 PM
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I think we have agreed all along on most items. The grand am situation will resolve itself probably this year as they are already putting a limit on the number of GT3 cup Porsche that can run this season and are forcing the teams to run the entire season. Grand Am is trying to go back to the IMSA rules of the eighties and make the tube chassis car the car for the GT ranks(as well as the prototypes). IMSA once used tube frame or semi tube frame race cars almost exclusively. They did mandate the use of some of the OEM body peices so the cars looked similair to the road car. I know it doesn't sound cheaper but it is for a pro team to build and race a tube frame car. ALMS or the new IMSA is going the World Challenge type rules structure and making you start with a road car and build it into a race car. This is good for teams that have the manufacturers support to help build and develope these type of cars, as it is more expensive to build and race. Developing and racing production based cars is expensive and difficult without the technical help and support of the manufacturer. So if you are a factory porsche team like Job Racing you will win or if you have BMW like PTG you will be successful, but if you buy an M3 and try to compete with PTG you will lose more times than you will win. Grand Am is looking for independent teams with outside(the sport) sponsors(like Nextel Cup) and ALMS/IMSA will live and die with the manufacturers and the factory backed teams.
As for the super seven I think they could have made it more attractive for the hardcore racer and they could have sold them for the price they need to make the project profitable.
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Old 12-15-05, 09:08 AM
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The cars using strut suspension had to use insane stiff 1500# springs to keep suspension movement down to a very narrow travel. It took a very expensive shock absorber program (not off the shelf shocks, not the same shock settings for every track) to control those stiff springs. Not something for amateurs like me.
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Old 12-16-05, 04:17 PM
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yes, the new shock setups for some of these cars are very expensive and need alot of testing and setup.
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Old 12-17-05, 11:56 AM
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7's Only

7's Only Spec GT2 is a good car, and lots of fun to race. With racing it's the running costs and down time that can be just as important as the initial cost.
You get support, and a very reliable race car. Seat time/bang for the buck it's hard to beat.
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