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R6 Hoosier Vs. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

Old 05-10-07, 08:54 AM
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Question R6 Hoosier Vs. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

I've been working on this car for about 12 months now. Slowly adding the mods
I consider important. Going to start road racing the car, but I am a Novice. I'm
signed up for the Mazda Drivers school 6/16-6/17. I was going to run MaxCoopers'
set-up; 285/30 18's on all 4 corners. I already have the 10"x 18" rims. The
question is.....Which tire would be better for a Novice @ VIR; Hoosier R6 or the
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. I was advised by a friend I should get a tire that would
"talk to me" i.e. give some warning of impending break-away. The hoosier will
stick better, but I have found they are unforgiving ( in auto-cross) in that they
grip until they quit and quit with little warning. BTW..I have a 93' fd. Any
suggestions are welcome. Does'nt have to be either of these tires. Thanks for
any help. Dave
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Old 05-10-07, 08:59 AM
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^^^ for a first timer, you should probably pick a nice street tire, not an R-compound, but you might also look into the cheaper/longer lasting Khumho or Yokohama options as will. Hoosiers and Sportcups are awfully expensive to not be exploiting to their full potential, which you wont be able to do the first few times out.
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Old 05-10-07, 09:19 AM
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yeah, driver's schools are not about setting blindingly fast laps, just to learn. I would reccomend a race tire, so you can learn on what you will race on, street tires drive alot different. I would go with the previous suggestion of kumho or yoko's, they are much cheaper and not a real big difference in performance. Maybe you can scoop some used ones..do an eBay search for usdrrt. He may have some. Also, 18's are an expensive size to race on, I would suggest finding some smaller wheels that are more twords the stock diameter. i would assume a 18 will change your rearend ratio pretty drastically. I dont know how this pertains to autocross. Good luck!!
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Old 05-10-07, 09:31 AM
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^^^^

18's do not change your rear end ratio at all. They are, however, expensive, and buying Hoosiers or SportCups for yor first time out is like purchasing Olympic racing Ski's to tke your first few slides down the bunny slope.
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Old 05-10-07, 09:33 AM
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I appreciate the info guys; I have done alot of homework on the tire sizes and
am looking to keep the overall tire height as close to stock as possible (25" +/_).
My thinking is like yours in that starting off on something close to what I will
race on makes more since; rather than having to re-learn the car all over again.
I also realize 18" is not the cheapest date in town for tire sizes, but thats how
the car is already set-up (streets 285/18 rear...245/18 front w/ Toyo T1R's).
Keeping the same basic set-up for racing seems like it would save set-up time.
Keep the suggestions coming guys. Looking at the Yoko's now.
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Old 05-10-07, 09:41 AM
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ptrhahn,
I believe what your saying, a cheaper tire in that size is what I'm looking for.
I agree that a rookie doesn't need the best chit cause I'll probably get passed by
a mini cooper lol. BTW... I moved out of my Dad's house 32 years ago, and my
front fenders are already rolled........lol..That is funny chit Bud! Thanks for your help. Dave
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Old 05-10-07, 09:58 AM
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I need to remove that sig., I was in a salty mood that day.

The bottom line is, if you've got the cheese, get what you want... but you won't really have to "relearn" the car going from streets to R's to better R's. It's just a progression of grip/forgiveness. If you want forgiveness, and tires that'll "talk" to you, try going out the first time or two on those Toyo's that you're already used to. Then grab some Khumhos or something for extra wheels after an event or two.
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Old 05-10-07, 10:02 AM
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I'd run the Toyo's that are on there for your first time out. That means you can still run if/when it rains.

What brake pads are you planning on running? I am a firm believer in "you don't want to run more tire than brake, and vice-versa".

How much RWHP are you putting down? If a lot more than stock, I recommend dialing back the boost to 6-8psi. Too much go pedal coming out of a corner is an easy way to spin in a high HP car.

Focus on having fun and learning - North Course is a great venue.
-bill
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Old 05-10-07, 12:38 PM
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Thanks for the advice guys. I will run the Toyo's til I get my sea legs and hold off
on the race tires til I get some more info (and more experience).
wrankin: I'm running Hks pads on brembo slotted/drilled rotors, Hp as it sits
right now is 295 whp w/ stock twins w/about 12lbs. boost. Will probably get
around 330 whp after next tuning (had some solenoid issues now resolved).
I have looped this car a few times auto-crossing with hoosier A6's so...I know what your saying about too much pedal. Bottom line is; I've put alot of time,
money, and effort into this car (and enjoyed every minute). Now it's time to
learn how to drive it. The driving is what this is all about for me. I just want
this car to be reliable and safe; and try not to bend this toy up in the process.
Dave
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Old 05-10-07, 12:47 PM
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Just a thought:

Give Nick at N-Tech a call, and get a 4-corner set of his "lapping day" pads. They are perfect for first time(s) out. Very forgiving, very streetable, very rotor friendly and non temperature sensitive, and they'll hold up to hard track driving.

If those HKS are street pads, they won't hold up... you'll need to swap out to a fairly capable track pad, and make sure you've got good trackworthy fluid like ATE, AP, or Motul. Then you're good to go.
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Old 05-10-07, 12:58 PM
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I agree, you really should get a brake pad suited for the track. Depending on what kind of pads you have on there now, you could get away with just running a track pad on the front and leaving the rear pads alone.

I would recommend the N-Tech Lapping/Competition pads or the Carbotech XP8/XP10 front pads. Both of those choices are rotor/brake dust friendly.

For brake fluid, I would recommend ATE (Blue/Gold).
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Old 05-10-07, 02:30 PM
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FYI, Nick is out of stock right now. Give him some lead time and you should be good. I just got some Porterfield R4Es for this weekend.

Link to N tech
http://www.ntechengineering.com/
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Old 05-10-07, 04:05 PM
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I called Ntech and left a message. I appreciate the info; I don't want to be
unprepared or have inadequit brakes. I thought I had decent stuff (Hks),
but I guess their for street use.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:25 PM
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1. Yes, run track pads.
2. Lower the boost to 10 psi, especially if you have stock cooling/IC/oil cooling.

Originally Posted by ptrhahn
I need to remove that sig., I was in a salty mood that day.
Please leave the first line....
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Old 05-11-07, 07:34 AM
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I do have a fluidyne radiator, fmic, and dual earls oil coolers. These pads are pricey
but I guess wow is even more important than Go...lol
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Old 05-11-07, 08:22 AM
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Dave,
We were all just telling Hedgehog in the suspension forum, there's really no such thing as a track-worthy street pad, or a streetworthy track pad. It's not a matter of quality so much as there's no way to create a substance that will perform effectively for both activities.

Street pads are meant to give you great stopping power right away, in all weather, for one or two times in quick succession at best, and last a while. 5-10 stops in a row, and they're toast, no matter how good they are.

Track pads often stop like crap until you get them warm, don't last very long, or have lots of dust/noise, or other behaviors you wouldn't want to tollerate every day.

About the best compromise I've seen are N-Tech's lapping day's. You could run them on the street, because the initial performance is great, no noise, friendly to your rotors... they just wouldn't last long that way.

If you've got a PFC or other guage, watch your water temps carefully with that FMIC.
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Old 05-11-07, 12:39 PM
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ptrhahn;
I really appreciate your suggestions. I just got off the phone with Nick @ NTech.
He seems to be a good guy and definitely knowledgable. I ordered a set of the
pads you suggested and 3 bottles of Modul brake fluid. I now realize the differences between street and track use. The issue of cooling was also a topic
with Nick. He suggested cooling ducts to help direct more airflow to the radiator.
I did inform him that I have ordered a vented cf hood that should be in next week.
I have always had cooling as a major concern in modding this car. Hopefully;
cooling won't be a problem @ VIR. Nick did tell me to keep an eye on both my
water temp gauges....and I will. One other question: How often do you replace
you engine wire harness ? I have been told this is a souce of heat related
failures causing major engine damage. Thanks, Dave
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Old 05-12-07, 12:18 AM
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Yikes, tracking the car with an FMIC is even more difficult in terms of managing water temps. Definitely do not run more than 10 psi. I hope you have an aftermarket gauge to watch water temps and not just the stock gauge. You may find that you need to start short shifting to manage temps as the session wears on.
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Old 05-12-07, 08:02 AM
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In regards to temps, remember that drafting sucks for cooling. If you are running warm, duck out from the line of cars to get clean air though your radiator/oil coolers.
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