Petitt FD in Speed GT, where was it at Sears Point?
08-12-03, 12:30 PM
#26
I understand what you are saying, but it goes directly against your statement that politics don't play a part in the rules making.. its exactly as i said:
1. A big name like Cunningham can supercharfe a car that never came that way
2. Audi can run a car thats 500 lbs lighter w/ fuel and driver than the stock car is empty.
3. Rich PCA members can "lobby" to get their 10+ year old model in w/ some "rewritten" read: bent rules, but:
A no-name Mazda tuner and lower-income fans won't have any luck getting the rules set up to let a car that could probably smoke most of the latest offerings to even be competitive.
Remember when they used to say IMSA meant "International Money Sports Association"?? I can't see where this is any different.....
1. A big name like Cunningham can supercharfe a car that never came that way
2. Audi can run a car thats 500 lbs lighter w/ fuel and driver than the stock car is empty.
3. Rich PCA members can "lobby" to get their 10+ year old model in w/ some "rewritten" read: bent rules, but:
A no-name Mazda tuner and lower-income fans won't have any luck getting the rules set up to let a car that could probably smoke most of the latest offerings to even be competitive.
Remember when they used to say IMSA meant "International Money Sports Association"?? I can't see where this is any different.....
Originally posted by racerjason
I will comment on all your statements and answer your questions best I can when I am settled back in here at work. Upon getting back from Mid Ohio I arrived to a STACK of work. *sigh*
The 928 is allowed to run the select few events they choose to enter because it is competitive and the project was pushed in to our lap by the Porsche Car Club; there was alot of interest. 7's owners just need to speak up but that alone won't provide for entry money nor the maintenance bill. The 7 is in much the same bag as the 928, there was enough interest to let it run, we needed to beef up the size of the field but they weren't about to make great changes beyond that to the regulations concerning the car itself.
I will comment on all your statements and answer your questions best I can when I am settled back in here at work. Upon getting back from Mid Ohio I arrived to a STACK of work. *sigh*
The 928 is allowed to run the select few events they choose to enter because it is competitive and the project was pushed in to our lap by the Porsche Car Club; there was alot of interest. 7's owners just need to speak up but that alone won't provide for entry money nor the maintenance bill. The 7 is in much the same bag as the 928, there was enough interest to let it run, we needed to beef up the size of the field but they weren't about to make great changes beyond that to the regulations concerning the car itself.
08-15-03, 10:07 AM
#27
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Re: I think all of you have a point.
Originally posted by racerxrx7
If you want to check out a really cool series check out the JGTC. http://www.jgtc.net/.
If you want to check out a really cool series check out the JGTC. http://www.jgtc.net/.
I do agree, the JGTC is neat, with a some interesting pieces of hardware. That being said, I have a couple of problems with the series.
It's obviously Japanese centric. While I don't have a problem with this (what ever blows your hair back, I guess), the ruleset is obviously giving some advantage to certain cars. McLaren F1's and Porsche GT2's can't keep up with the NSX's, Skylines and Supras? That aint natural.
Additionally, how expensive must those cars be? Sequential gear boxes, carbon fibre everywhere etc.
They are fun to watch though.
08-15-03, 05:04 PM
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It does seem like the FD is sort of a "forgotten" car with respect to SCCA, not so much biased-against, but more like the Supras and 300ZXs are now, just sort of omitted from the thought process that classifies the cars. I mean, look at where it is allowed to run at a club level: ITE and GT1/2.
Okay, well ITE limits you to regional (club-level) competition - the highest peak of this arena is events like the 12 hours at the point. And the "open-ness" of this class makes it a veritable free-for-all - you never know, from one event to the next, what you'll be up against, and sometimes you get screwed by the occasional very-well-prepared/developed car (in one case I can remember, a Ferrari of Washington 348GT up against a first-gen RX7?). From a race fan's perspective, this doesn't even really register as a blip on the radar, so to speak, since ITE is not a regional feeder for any particular national class in SCCA. It's more like a place to develop yourself as a driver, in preparation to run in an endurance series like ALMS or GrandAm (hmmm, there's IMSA again...). Or, it's a place to have a heck of a lot of fun as an amateur driver.
Ahhh, GT1. So the FD is categorized into the same class as TransAm cars? (albeit "obsolete" TransAm cars) To me, that seems like a particularly large oversight. The two pro series that are under the guise of the SCCA (last time I checked) are Speed World Challenge and TransAm. Well, it seems obvious that anyone that would put the FD into TransAm is on serious mind-altering drugs. And under SWC, you have Touring and GT. Okay, the FD obviously doesn't fit into Touring by any stretch of the imagination. But GT seems to be the focal point of this thread, and the only logical place to put an FD in an SCCA pro series. So, as I see it, there is a certain lack of symmetry here between the club and pro classes in SCCA. Under the assumption that the GT series is where an FD would end up in SCCA pro racing, why is it classified at a club level with cars from the much faster TransAm series?
GT2? Wait, what happened to GT1.5? I'm not entirely certain what the criteria are for whether you are in GT1 or GT2 when driving an FD, but assuming you could choose which you run in, this would seem like the more intuitive choice. Now you are actually in the same category as the afforementioned Ferrari 348GT (to quote the SCCA car classifications DB, "w/ 308 Specs (2926cc)"), the venerable Chevy Z24 Cavalier, the 74-93 Mustang 2.8, and the Infiniti G20. Wow, what a closely-matched category! I can't tell you how many times I've wished to see that kind of a match-up on the track!
I've thought this over again and again, and it seems like one would try to create classes that sort of parallel eachother, between the club and pro levels. And I would love to get a chance to meet the person who decided that a Buick Regal is classified in GT1! Brilliant!
Okay, well ITE limits you to regional (club-level) competition - the highest peak of this arena is events like the 12 hours at the point. And the "open-ness" of this class makes it a veritable free-for-all - you never know, from one event to the next, what you'll be up against, and sometimes you get screwed by the occasional very-well-prepared/developed car (in one case I can remember, a Ferrari of Washington 348GT up against a first-gen RX7?). From a race fan's perspective, this doesn't even really register as a blip on the radar, so to speak, since ITE is not a regional feeder for any particular national class in SCCA. It's more like a place to develop yourself as a driver, in preparation to run in an endurance series like ALMS or GrandAm (hmmm, there's IMSA again...). Or, it's a place to have a heck of a lot of fun as an amateur driver.
Ahhh, GT1. So the FD is categorized into the same class as TransAm cars? (albeit "obsolete" TransAm cars) To me, that seems like a particularly large oversight. The two pro series that are under the guise of the SCCA (last time I checked) are Speed World Challenge and TransAm. Well, it seems obvious that anyone that would put the FD into TransAm is on serious mind-altering drugs. And under SWC, you have Touring and GT. Okay, the FD obviously doesn't fit into Touring by any stretch of the imagination. But GT seems to be the focal point of this thread, and the only logical place to put an FD in an SCCA pro series. So, as I see it, there is a certain lack of symmetry here between the club and pro classes in SCCA. Under the assumption that the GT series is where an FD would end up in SCCA pro racing, why is it classified at a club level with cars from the much faster TransAm series?
GT2? Wait, what happened to GT1.5? I'm not entirely certain what the criteria are for whether you are in GT1 or GT2 when driving an FD, but assuming you could choose which you run in, this would seem like the more intuitive choice. Now you are actually in the same category as the afforementioned Ferrari 348GT (to quote the SCCA car classifications DB, "w/ 308 Specs (2926cc)"), the venerable Chevy Z24 Cavalier, the 74-93 Mustang 2.8, and the Infiniti G20. Wow, what a closely-matched category! I can't tell you how many times I've wished to see that kind of a match-up on the track!
I've thought this over again and again, and it seems like one would try to create classes that sort of parallel eachother, between the club and pro levels. And I would love to get a chance to meet the person who decided that a Buick Regal is classified in GT1! Brilliant!
08-15-03, 09:03 PM
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i just had to say that I agree on the Supercharged NSX thing...I will never understand why they did that one. I do like that team the best at the time although Randy Pobst was getting close to my heart last year in the Porsche (damn Audis 
). I wish the FD could run with the single turbo (I'd rather have twins, but still...why can you have a supercharged NSX but no single turbo RX-7), I just really wanna see them have a succesful campaign.
). I wish the FD could run with the single turbo (I'd rather have twins, but still...why can you have a supercharged NSX but no single turbo RX-7), I just really wanna see them have a succesful campaign.
08-16-03, 10:04 AM
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In response to the GT rules for SCCA club and national level, the FD is GT1 or GT2. GT1 FDs can run turbos, 20Bs, lots of engine choices. The GT2 FDs run I believe 12A PP or 13B BP, IIRC. Also keep in mind that most top level GT cars in SCCA are silohuette cars. Tube frame, custom built with fiberglass skins to resemble whatever car. As in you talking about the Buick Regal in GT1, remember that the same chassis that a Corvette GT1 would run could have some new molds made and put on a Buick Regal body, now you have same car, but hoop ride body. LOL There was a point in here. And how we went from FDs in SWC to Buick Regals in GT1 is a mystery. 
08-16-03, 10:48 AM
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this is a great thread!!! i hope our local SCCA official keeps responding though he seems to be on the defensive.
i have a couple of random thoughts.
support for FD racing in this country is essentially zero. the problem probably began because of SCCA regs essentially ostracizing the FD, but in the end, the FD community never lobbied hard enough to change things and subsequently here we are. i made the typical amateur racer mistake and bought a car i liked, prepared it into a very fast and reliable car, only to find it doesn't fit into any class. i don't consider GT1-2 to be a class where a typical privateer is building a car in his garage. the cars are no longer the original car at all (except the silhouette). IT rules are way too restrictive to FD's and don't allow enough modification to make the car fast AND reliable. super production is possible as is NASA super unlimited, but those are so wide open that the chance of being competitve from week to week is completey unknown. soooooo instead, i have a very fast and reliable open track car that can't really be raced despite the fact that it has turned lap times equivalent to gt2 cars at our local california tracks. it's completely my fault for not doing my research ahead of time, but still it's quite frustrating. when i go to open track events i'm usually the only FD there. i proceed to run in the the top 3-5% of laptimes, but i can't sell my car for anywhere even remotely near it's value. people like to bash on the porsche community, but i can tell you, if i was selling a 10 year old 944 that is as well prepped as my FD, they'd be busting down my door.
i guess my point, what is my point???oh yeah.....the FD community is not race oriented and has no real pull in the road racing world. its not surprising that we don't have cars in the major pro racing series.....10 guys in the whole country semi interested in FD racing doesn't equal Porsch club of america's SCCA lobby power.
i'm off to CSR/DSR racing in the near future....i'm going to be leaving the RX7 world with mixed feelings. i'll miss my FD terribly, but at least i'll have fast and reliable car i can race.
love this thread....keep it going!!!!
regards
fabian
i have a couple of random thoughts.
support for FD racing in this country is essentially zero. the problem probably began because of SCCA regs essentially ostracizing the FD, but in the end, the FD community never lobbied hard enough to change things and subsequently here we are. i made the typical amateur racer mistake and bought a car i liked, prepared it into a very fast and reliable car, only to find it doesn't fit into any class. i don't consider GT1-2 to be a class where a typical privateer is building a car in his garage. the cars are no longer the original car at all (except the silhouette). IT rules are way too restrictive to FD's and don't allow enough modification to make the car fast AND reliable. super production is possible as is NASA super unlimited, but those are so wide open that the chance of being competitve from week to week is completey unknown. soooooo instead, i have a very fast and reliable open track car that can't really be raced despite the fact that it has turned lap times equivalent to gt2 cars at our local california tracks. it's completely my fault for not doing my research ahead of time, but still it's quite frustrating. when i go to open track events i'm usually the only FD there. i proceed to run in the the top 3-5% of laptimes, but i can't sell my car for anywhere even remotely near it's value. people like to bash on the porsche community, but i can tell you, if i was selling a 10 year old 944 that is as well prepped as my FD, they'd be busting down my door.
i guess my point, what is my point???oh yeah.....the FD community is not race oriented and has no real pull in the road racing world. its not surprising that we don't have cars in the major pro racing series.....10 guys in the whole country semi interested in FD racing doesn't equal Porsch club of america's SCCA lobby power.
i'm off to CSR/DSR racing in the near future....i'm going to be leaving the RX7 world with mixed feelings. i'll miss my FD terribly, but at least i'll have fast and reliable car i can race.
love this thread....keep it going!!!!
regards
fabian
Last edited by foko; 08-16-03 at 10:51 AM.
08-16-03, 02:05 PM
#32
Mad Man
Fabian, you are right(but does it take away from your enjoyment of the sport?), I am building a TII for Super Unlimited, but as you point out, from week to week who knows who I will run against.
However, for me, that is not a problem, Super Unlimited will allow me to build whatever I want(the car I love with NO limits), and go wheel to wheel racing for relatively little money. l will have less than 20G in my car trailer and all.
Since I do not care so much about published results, and I will be running with cars that are often faster than me, this is for me, a perfect, and inexpensive way to go wheel to wheel. My goal will be to run times on a par with the top ITE cars, without the SCCA BS. For me this is enough, for others it is not. I am grateful that there is a series for me to run my ~500rwhp Widebody TII, without worrying about rules that limit my reliability mods, or tell me I cannot run a 335-30-17 because it will give me an unfair advantage over a 145,000.00 Porsche.
I guess it comes down to what you want out of racing, if you want trophies, and published bragging rights it is a very frustrating place for 7s, but if you want inexpensive, and competitive wheel to wheel racing I fell it is out there. For me there is always a faster car to chase, always a friend to make, and always fun to be had. For me fun is what it is about, and there's plenty of that. As Brad would say"peace, love, and track(I'll add fun to that. Later, Carl
However, for me, that is not a problem, Super Unlimited will allow me to build whatever I want(the car I love with NO limits), and go wheel to wheel racing for relatively little money. l will have less than 20G in my car trailer and all.
Since I do not care so much about published results, and I will be running with cars that are often faster than me, this is for me, a perfect, and inexpensive way to go wheel to wheel. My goal will be to run times on a par with the top ITE cars, without the SCCA BS. For me this is enough, for others it is not. I am grateful that there is a series for me to run my ~500rwhp Widebody TII, without worrying about rules that limit my reliability mods, or tell me I cannot run a 335-30-17 because it will give me an unfair advantage over a 145,000.00 Porsche.
I guess it comes down to what you want out of racing, if you want trophies, and published bragging rights it is a very frustrating place for 7s, but if you want inexpensive, and competitive wheel to wheel racing I fell it is out there. For me there is always a faster car to chase, always a friend to make, and always fun to be had. For me fun is what it is about, and there's plenty of that. As Brad would say"peace, love, and track(I'll add fun to that. Later, Carl
08-16-03, 02:32 PM
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carl, you make some great points. but i would argue a little with the "competitiveness" of SU or SP. the couple of these races i've seen were basically one or two high dollar, high horsepower cars (race prepped viper, race prepped vette, some version of P 911) fighting for the the lead, and then a very scattered field spread out for miles behind. there was very little competition at all. the speed differential of the cars was just too great. i'm sure there were some small battles amoungst the also rans, but it just didn't seem like enough for me.
for me personally, i've gotten endless amounts of joy and comrederie at open track events. some competiveness always gets satisfied running in the advanced groups and time trials......however, there's nothing that compares with competing wheel to wheel with cars which are at least withing 20% of performance potential. i think series like spec miata and similar, push this too far because they eliminate most of the "race craft" aspect. i'm just looking for a happy medium, and just don't think it exists for the FD.
i'm sorry i never got to meet you or silkworm or really any of the rx7 communityat the track in the last year. i've attendend at least 15 open track events in the last year and can count the number of rx7 owners that i've met on one hand. i'm starting my competive career in the next month so i'm sure i'll meet some more since i realize there's a million 1st and 2nd gen drivers out there in IT and Prod classes.....unfortunately the FD JUST DOESN'T FIT
good luck with that beast, looking forward to seeing you out there some time.
fabian
ps....u really use 335 tires on that thing
for me personally, i've gotten endless amounts of joy and comrederie at open track events. some competiveness always gets satisfied running in the advanced groups and time trials......however, there's nothing that compares with competing wheel to wheel with cars which are at least withing 20% of performance potential. i think series like spec miata and similar, push this too far because they eliminate most of the "race craft" aspect. i'm just looking for a happy medium, and just don't think it exists for the FD.
i'm sorry i never got to meet you or silkworm or really any of the rx7 communityat the track in the last year. i've attendend at least 15 open track events in the last year and can count the number of rx7 owners that i've met on one hand. i'm starting my competive career in the next month so i'm sure i'll meet some more since i realize there's a million 1st and 2nd gen drivers out there in IT and Prod classes.....unfortunately the FD JUST DOESN'T FIT
good luck with that beast, looking forward to seeing you out there some time.
fabian
ps....u really use 335 tires on that thing
08-16-03, 06:49 PM
#34
Mad Man
335s on 17x12 CCWs with 275s, or 315s on 17x10s up front is the plan, the flares are being moulded to the car as we speak. Usually SU runs with some other fast classes, and I think I'll find some guys to run with. If not, I will petition for ITE, although I do not care for the politics of SCCA(no flames please). We shall see. If you have not sold your car, will you attend SS6? As my buddies kid me, I just love the "look at me" street cars, which also "GO". Dual use is the way for me. I am also building an ~800rwhp Supra (wife is a very patient). Anyway good luck, and hope to see you at the track.
08-18-03, 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by Carl Byck
As my buddies kid me, I just love the "look at me" street cars, which also "GO". Dual use is the way for me. I am also building an ~800rwhp Supra (wife is a very patient). Anyway good luck, and hope to see you at the track.
As my buddies kid me, I just love the "look at me" street cars, which also "GO". Dual use is the way for me. I am also building an ~800rwhp Supra (wife is a very patient). Anyway good luck, and hope to see you at the track.
fabian
08-19-03, 09:58 AM
#38
okay...
Fabian hit the nail on the head. The interest and support for FD's participating in motorsports has always been limited. Perhaps if Cam had chosen to run more then three or four events each of the last two seasons then his efforts might have been taken more seriously. Gump Motorsports who is campaigning the car currently is a low buck operation, they come out to play, not to win. Even if that car went big single it would just make it more tempermental. Where does that car end up typically? Bottom feeding unfortunately. I think at Sebring they lasted 7 laps, Mosport maybe double that. I own a TII racecar and I know that every new day holds a new dilemna whether it comes from regular maintenance or hair-pulling new snafu's. Heck, as far as interest and money... There was immaculately prepared FD builf for our series, rumor was they spent a quarter of a million on it + +. Did it ever materialize in to a full race program or anything? No, money was the factor. And backing from Mazda or anyone else wouldn't ahve made a terrific difference. The interest by all parties except for the fabricators of the car just wasn't there unfortunately. The lobbying by the 928 S4 team and its supporters made a difference. When I post a msg. in the CDN forum asking people to come out and support our regional rotary brotherhood I get three or four people. Oh well...
As for the Vortech Supercharged NSX. It was competitive wasn't it? Did it win all the time against Galati in the S4 (that cost over a million dollars to develop and build both cars)? No. the fields were matched fairly well then, FD aside. Did the NSX have a crowd around it in the paddock? Always. The FD sat underappreciated and received little attention except for the odd enthusiast. Shame but what can you do.
The NSX has fallen victim to the same fate the FD has now. Waining interest, reliability, newer more powerful models on the grid. Heck, PD built a second NSX for qualified arrive and drives last season but it never saw a race.
Okay, I have to get back to work here before I'm fired. lol Carpal tunnel is setting in too.
Fabian hit the nail on the head. The interest and support for FD's participating in motorsports has always been limited. Perhaps if Cam had chosen to run more then three or four events each of the last two seasons then his efforts might have been taken more seriously. Gump Motorsports who is campaigning the car currently is a low buck operation, they come out to play, not to win. Even if that car went big single it would just make it more tempermental. Where does that car end up typically? Bottom feeding unfortunately. I think at Sebring they lasted 7 laps, Mosport maybe double that. I own a TII racecar and I know that every new day holds a new dilemna whether it comes from regular maintenance or hair-pulling new snafu's. Heck, as far as interest and money... There was immaculately prepared FD builf for our series, rumor was they spent a quarter of a million on it + +. Did it ever materialize in to a full race program or anything? No, money was the factor. And backing from Mazda or anyone else wouldn't ahve made a terrific difference. The interest by all parties except for the fabricators of the car just wasn't there unfortunately. The lobbying by the 928 S4 team and its supporters made a difference. When I post a msg. in the CDN forum asking people to come out and support our regional rotary brotherhood I get three or four people. Oh well...
As for the Vortech Supercharged NSX. It was competitive wasn't it? Did it win all the time against Galati in the S4 (that cost over a million dollars to develop and build both cars)? No. the fields were matched fairly well then, FD aside. Did the NSX have a crowd around it in the paddock? Always. The FD sat underappreciated and received little attention except for the odd enthusiast. Shame but what can you do.
The NSX has fallen victim to the same fate the FD has now. Waining interest, reliability, newer more powerful models on the grid. Heck, PD built a second NSX for qualified arrive and drives last season but it never saw a race.
Okay, I have to get back to work here before I'm fired. lol Carpal tunnel is setting in too.
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