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Petitt FD in Speed GT, where was it at Sears Point?

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Petitt FD in Speed GT, where was it at Sears Point?

Old 08-10-03, 04:46 PM
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Petitt FD in Speed GT, where was it at Sears Point?

I was watching the Speed GT Championship on Speed and I didn't see the Petitt car in the field. Are they still racing it in GT. Do you think that the governing board for SCCA is holding the FD back by keeping the boost too low to compete with the other cars? It would look pretty bad for Chevy, Audi, and BMW to have a ten year old Japanese car beating them. I would love to see someone get a really good driver, well prepared FD, and a lot of money, and go out there and kick the C5 and BMW's but. By the way I raced through some office park streets with a Ferrari today and he had nothin on me!!!
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Old 08-10-03, 07:23 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised at some SCCA bias towards the FD; read the offical responses from the SCCA board in the thread "Let's move FD to A Stock"
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Old 08-10-03, 07:25 PM
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What model Ferrari did you race?
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Old 08-10-03, 09:10 PM
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How many teams run FDs vs C5s, 911s or Audis/BMWs.. THis is their first year running the FD full time (as far as I know), and they probably need some development time on the car. They may not be as well funded as the Audi or BMW efforts are (I'd be very surprised if they were).

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Old 08-10-03, 11:30 PM
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I think it was a 360 Modena. He took off around some corners and I went with him.
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Old 08-11-03, 09:02 AM
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Hmmm... lets see:

I looked at the rule PDF available online for Speed GT, and if memory serves:

The new Audi RS6, which weighs 4000 lbs in street trim is allowed to race at 3200 or a little under... and M3s are allowed to weigh 2700 , but the FD is supposed to race at 2600, a weight many full street versions weigh.

Gee, i wonder who puts more money in GT? Audi w/ their 3-car effort, BMW, or Pettit racing who ran on used race tires last year?

Series legend PD Cunningham was allowed to run a supercharger on his NSX, which doesn't have one in production trm, but as far as i can tell, but series nobody Cam Worth (or Brad Flowers) and the FD has to run stock hitachi twins @ 15 psi.... the Audi RS6 can run 2.2 bar of boost!!!

hmmm...
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Old 08-11-03, 09:50 AM
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That is the kind of crap that drives me crazy!!! I understand they need rules to make the racing competitive, but to seriously inhibit one car just because they aren't a huge sponsor of the series is ridiculous. Racing should be a fair sport. Void of prejudices. That is why I don't like gymnastics, ice skating, diving, or any other competition that is based on a subjective opinion of a judge. Sports like Track and Field are solely based on the performance of the participant, if you run faster than everybody else you win, Period!! I understand that this is difficult with all the different cars, weights, and horse power. But you think they would at least try to be fair. Sorry for the rant.
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Old 08-11-03, 10:03 AM
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Welcome to equivalency formula racing... you don't think the folks that win in any production-based series, or NASCAR for that matter don't have the best lobbyists?

The only way to be fair is to either be unlimited (F1), or totally spec (formula Mazda).

I'll bet the track cars of folks like Brad Barber or John Eppley are as fast as Pettits race car... all Cam would need is a single turbo... and a travel budget
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Old 08-11-03, 10:42 AM
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I can't believe they let Peter Cunningham put a supercharger on his NSX, but make the FD stay with the stock twins. That is crap. I understand what you are saying. It is just frustrating.
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Old 08-11-03, 10:58 AM
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Wink No no no...

On behalf of the SCCA Speed World Channel Series, both Touring and GT I would like to state there is NO bias involved. The team who has leased the car from Petit to run this season is located in Toronto and from what I understand chose to not make the longest haul of the season let alone they've cracked the car up and had teething problems.

The AUDI RS6's campained by Champion will never weigh less then 3500 with driver and the E46 M3's is in the same neighbourhood so you're knocking on the wrong door there.

We are confident that through almost daily research we maintain the greatest level of equivalency amongst such large and diverse fields of competitors. The rewards weight system works well. Where it does not we rewrite the books as we go. Hence the E46 M3's having 150 lbs. of base weight added for the remainder of the season effective immediately.

You don't think were fast? Come out and play...
Our cars on average are now running within 97 percent of the ALMS GT/S class cars. 170+ mph

Thank you and we hope you continue to watch and enjoy our series! Oh yeah, just got back from Mid-Ohio where we ran 40 touring cars. Some great battles, a bit of carnage, watch for it in a week or two on SPEED.
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Old 08-11-03, 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by ptrhahn
The only way to be fair is to either be unlimited (F1), or totally spec (formula Mazda).
That's incorrect. F1 is extremely regulated ... the absolute highest form of spec racing. Almost all open-wheel series follow this format. And mostly because that's the only way to keep people honest. Like any other sport, when you get to that level of competition, everybody cheats .... so it's in the sport's best interest to keep as much as possible heavily regulated. F1/CART/IRL teardown make NASCAR look like an east Texas state inspection.

Now, the World Challenge series is definitely a sponsor-lenient program. BMW, Audi, GM, and even Ford have been pushing the SCCA for their platforms. As mentioned the weight and boost restrictions are unduly set against RX-7's. Look up the restrictions for a Supra and you'll find the same thing. In the GT class, Mazda obviously hasn't lifted a finger. Now go to Touring class, and the whole field is littered with Proteges. It's all about factory backing. Mazda hasn't officially sponsored an RX-7 in many years .... and don't expect that it will anytime soon. IOW, if Mazda really wanted a competitive RX-7 in GT class, it would've made a case for one ... but obviously they don't care to right now. Maybe in 2007 (hint, hint) ...

Last edited by redrotorR1; 08-11-03 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 08-11-03, 12:16 PM
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Sponsor lenient huhn? Okay, name our sponsors...

What's that? Not one manufacturer? Correct! because we are a racing series!

Yes we hear from manufacturers but more often then not it's the competitors that bring these ideas forth. Irish Mike's runs two Impreza 2.5 RS's in Touring. They wanted to bring a WRX to GT and Subaru flatly declined helping them to any degree with such a program so they dropped the idea. I'd say 95% of the cars homologated for our series were concepts presented to us by privateers with no factory backing or incentives.

Are we suppose to make tremendous changes to our rules to allow models that aren't even being produced any longer to battle towards the front? No. The lifespan of homologation in our series is ten years I believe. You want a competitive car get something different perhaps. World Challenge wants both our Touring and GT fields to reflect current or recent models that will create exciting racing.

Think we're not careful? How about coming in to the paddock with flatbeds and towing away three or four cars for dyno testing? We seal engines, observe teardowns at the track and confiscate cams, valves, whatever we wish. Fuel sampling is done on a regular basis also.

World Challenge has been around a long time when you look at the tumultuous world of race series' in the last ten years. We often put on the best show of the weekend.

In my own opinion hell sure give the Petit car allowance for a big single turbo or more boost allowance. You think you don't see it much now?? then after those changes you'd see it less.
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Old 08-11-03, 12:46 PM
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Re: No no no...

Hey i was just reading the rulebook... and it said 3200 for the RS6, 2700 for the M3. thats all i was stating. If it runs heavier, great. So what does the RX7 run if the rulebook isn't accurate? I wouldn't expect a low-buck effort with a non-pro driver to win races in that series, but give me a break... equivalency formulas have always favored the big names (remember the cheater V8 M3s from ALMS?)... SGT is no different. That said, i love the series... i'm a big fan and have seen the races live... production based racing is great fun!

Per redrotor1: F1 isn't spec racing. They regulate alot more than they used to, but particularly in the engine dept. basically all it stipulates is 3.0 liters, and 10 cylanders. CART and IRL are probably more like what you are refering to...

SGT should at least allow the RX7 to do more with the turbos...






Originally posted by racerjason
On behalf of the SCCA Speed World Channel Series, both Touring and GT I would like to state there is NO bias involved. The team who has leased the car from Petit to run this season is located in Toronto and from what I understand chose to not make the longest haul of the season let alone they've cracked the car up and had teething problems.

The AUDI RS6's campained by Champion will never weigh less then 3500 with driver and the E46 M3's is in the same neighbourhood so you're knocking on the wrong door there.

We are confident that through almost daily research we maintain the greatest level of equivalency amongst such large and diverse fields of competitors. The rewards weight system works well. Where it does not we rewrite the books as we go. Hence the E46 M3's having 150 lbs. of base weight added for the remainder of the season effective immediately.

You don't think were fast? Come out and play...
Our cars on average are now running within 97 percent of the ALMS GT/S class cars. 170+ mph

Thank you and we hope you continue to watch and enjoy our series! Oh yeah, just got back from Mid-Ohio where we ran 40 touring cars. Some great battles, a bit of carnage, watch for it in a week or two on SPEED.
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Old 08-11-03, 12:54 PM
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I am not sure allowing more boost or a single turbo is a huge allowance. A lot less in my opinion than letting someone add a supercharger to a car that is naturally aspirated. I also don't think everyone should have to go out and buy a BMW or Corvette just because they are more favorable to the racing series. The RX7 could be a competitive car if World Challenge would let it. I also understand the World Challenge wants to have newer cars winning, that is what sells those cars for the manufacturers. Would Audi keep three cars in the series if a 10 year old Mazda RX7 was allowed to compete with them? How would that make Audi look. And then if Audi or BMW pulled out of the series that would be a huge blow to the racing series. Really that is what it is about. Audi and BMW may not be title sponsors of the series, but having them in the series elevates the status of World Challenge. If they leave that would be bad so you need to do what you have to do to keep them in the series and not really care about Mazda because they aren't as important and don't have factory backing.
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Old 08-11-03, 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by racerjason
Sponsor lenient huhn? Okay, name our sponsors...
Acura, AirGas, Amkus, Audi, BMW, B&M, Chevrolet, Honda, Intercomp, Lexus, Mazda, Mr. Moto, Nissan, Porsche, Saleen, Sha Sha, StopTech, Subaru, Toyo, and TRD. And that's just the stuff that's listed on the website. Granted, most of the sponsorship revolves around contingency points .... but that's EVERY form of motorsports. Contingency is what makes racing ... racing!

There's a manufacturer championship because ... what, WC philanthropically donates money to whatever manufacturer ends the season with the most points??? And where would all this money come from? Just ticket sales, huh? FIA doesn't require a $48 million deposit from new F1 teams for nothing. And while being a lot smaller in scale, are you seriously trying to convince me that WC conducts its business any differently? If you buy that, then I've got an island in the South Pacific to sell you ....
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Old 08-11-03, 01:30 PM
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Yep, I know absolutely nothing. I've only been an official for the series for five years and been in professional motorsports for eleven. Contingencies are just that contingencies, nothing revolves around them.
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Old 08-11-03, 01:47 PM
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As a series official, what say do you have in classing/rule changes? I ask because I have no idea how they are made. I understand that teams make the most noise, but manufacturers have zero influence? As I previously stated, factory backing is everything ... but WC doesn't get anything in return? Seems very odd for a Pro Racing series.
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Old 08-11-03, 03:16 PM
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I don't think you know nothing... quite the contrary, so i'd love to hear what the actual regulations for these cars are since they are apparently much different than the published regs (shame too, since my world challenge car built to the posted regs was gonna be ready for the season finale :-) )

I also understand that many a sanction body has had trouble properly "equivalent" -ing a rotary car. But i think you and others hit it on the head: SGT wants its field to reflect current makes because thats what sells cars and ultimately brings manufacturers (and money) to the sport. Nobody's gonna make a dime from a 10 year old car not sold in this country racing Audi's latest $80k offering.

I don't think its a matter of SGT needing to do anything to HELP said 10-year old car run w/ newer machinery... more like letting a privateer get away with what it lets bigger name folks do, like Cunningham's supercharged NSX (also a 10+ year old design, though they still sell it here for a loss)...

Please understand, that i love the series, and am not suggesting its fixed or anything, just that they could cut the RX a little more of a break, like they've done others, as its obviously down on power.

The original question was wether the RX7 was on a level playing field with some of the other cars, and by the rules i've read, it doesn't look like it is.
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Old 08-11-03, 03:33 PM
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Very well said ptrhahn. You a politician or something? I agree. I just want to see the RX7 on a level playing field with the rest of the cars.
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Old 08-11-03, 07:23 PM
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because mazda's ZOOM ZOOM comercials don't incorporate the FD. That is why the petit FD isn't finishing first.
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Old 08-11-03, 07:39 PM
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Yaw power is working on a supercharged rx8 platform for the SpeedGT series.

I can see why Speed wants newer cars. Motorsports is about current technology. Manufacturers are about pushing current technology. Do not get me wrong - I have been around rotary powered cars for 20 years now. The third gen is a beautiful car. PRO sanctioning bodies do not survive by spinning there wheels on old technology.

I worked with the Speed series 10 or so years ago and got a vehicle homologated - My funding fell through They were very open and worked with me heavily.

-billy
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Old 08-12-03, 01:06 AM
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If WC wants newer cars, how do you explain the Porshe 928's that are currently running? According to the Speed commentators the SCCA had to adjust the rules somewhat to allow these cars to enter because of a very loyal, and vocal, following that wanted to see them raced. We FD owners are the same. I, too, enjoy the series, but I have to say I thought it more enjoyable when there were RX 7s, Toyota Supras, Corvettes, Porshes, NSXs and the like instead of sedans versus sport cars, as the series is now. I think all we FD owners and fans would ask is the same type of allowances granted Cunningham's NSX - needed to make it competitive - and the 928s to make it a more diverse field. It would attract all the Mazda fans already at the track to watch the Proteges (which have been granted huge tech concessions to become competitive against the BMWs.)
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Old 08-12-03, 09:37 AM
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I will comment on all your statements and answer your questions best I can when I am settled back in here at work. Upon getting back from Mid Ohio I arrived to a STACK of work. *sigh*

The 928 is allowed to run the select few events they choose to enter because it is competitive and the project was pushed in to our lap by the Porsche Car Club; there was alot of interest. 7's owners just need to speak up but that alone won't provide for entry money nor the maintenance bill. The 7 is in much the same bag as the 928, there was enough interest to let it run, we needed to beef up the size of the field but they weren't about to make great changes beyond that to the regulations concerning the car itself.
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Old 08-12-03, 09:56 AM
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I think all of you have a point.

I love the WC series when it has a whole mix of cars. That's what makes it wonderful. Lately I watch the begining of the race and that's about it. It reminds me of formula one last few years. Ferrari, Mclaren, Ferrari, Mclaren. Instead it's Audi,BMW, Corvette. The concept that intrigue me was the fact that you saw all these cars on the road and you could associate with them. Right know the big thing for these young kids is making their cars look like road racers. They are heavy into drag racing. I'd wish that road racing was less expensive and more accessible to the public like in Europe, but is not. Maybe will get there. I definitetly think that the WC should try an accomadate those cars that still have that high repoir with the tuners of today. Having Supras, RX-7's, 300z's, in this challenge would highten the WC image and bring some of the luster back to road racing. If you want to check out a really cool series check out the JGTC. http://www.jgtc.net/. They don't discriminate. The have the best cars on the planet racing on the best road courses running as many cars as nascar. It's a great race to watch. Unfortunately you can't get in the states. Speed Vision is supposed to have it, but i've never seen it.
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Old 08-12-03, 10:16 AM
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Speed did run JGTC for very brief periods last year. It's usually summary coverage though and they try and cram 3 or 4 events into a hour.

I agree that WC is doing something that we all love to see. Real cars being prepped and raced to their full potential. But to racerjason's point, there's not enough interest($$) in RX-7's to bring out a competitive team. And if it's anything like SoloII, most potential FD racers are all show and no go.
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