Heel and toe necessary in rotary?
11-14-07, 06:03 PM
#76
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Watch this! Not saying heel toe is bad, but it is not necessary to be fast. Driver Jack Mardikian sets new Buttonwillow record in an RX7, only car faster was HKS carbon EVO. Anyway, watch his feet. He does not Heel toe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_UxfmX8L4
11-14-07, 07:33 PM
#79
According to someone who claimed to be a brit, British driving schools teach "Gears to go, brakes to slow." He said your brakes are cheaper. I believe, if you're trying to save money, engine braking is only for emergency situations on the mountain when you're afraid your brakes might go out from the heat.
11-14-07, 09:24 PM
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The only reason I can come up with. This being a time attack run, and knowing that it is only three laps, he can go really deep into the corner useing the clutch engine to help in the braking depatment and not worry about all that much wear and tear.
11-18-07, 02:35 PM
#82
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Watch this! Not saying heel toe is bad, but it is not necessary to be fast. Driver Jack Mardikian sets new Buttonwillow record in an RX7, only car faster was HKS carbon EVO. Anyway, watch his feet. He does not Heel toe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_UxfmX8L4
11-18-07, 04:30 PM
#83
I think he was using heel-and-toe. When the light was right you could see part of his foot on the brake, which by my judgment was positioned to permit heel-toe. In all the important corner entries, you could hear him blipping the engine and downshifting but couldn't watch his feet because of the light. The blips could only have been done by heel-toe.
It is impressive driving.
Dave
It is impressive driving.
Dave
11-18-07, 05:09 PM
#84
I think he was using heel-and-toe. When the light was right you could see part of his foot on the brake, which by my judgment was positioned to permit heel-toe. In all the important corner entries, you could hear him blipping the engine and downshifting but couldn't watch his feet because of the light. The blips could only have been done by heel-toe.
It is impressive driving.
Dave
It is impressive driving.
Dave
I have since gotten an aftermarket steering wheel which gives me better leg clearance.
11-18-07, 09:57 PM
#86
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true but he was not fully dumping the clutch he was slipping the clutch number one when letting it out and number two if you watch his right foot it is on the brake as well as the gas, he was not fully heel toeing, but his feet were in the heel toe position he was only slightly increasing revs when letting out the clutch not a full heel toe but he wasnt not rev matching either.
A lightened flywheel will definately help when letting the clutch out like that, i also noticed that rotary motors are slightly less touchy about rev matching that piston motors although it is still neccasary on both types. The rotary just seems slightly more forgiving when it comes to sudden rpm changes
A lightened flywheel will definately help when letting the clutch out like that, i also noticed that rotary motors are slightly less touchy about rev matching that piston motors although it is still neccasary on both types. The rotary just seems slightly more forgiving when it comes to sudden rpm changes
11-19-07, 12:26 AM
#87
I'm thinking that's just his personal style, I can't imagine why'd u'd want to use the clutch to purposely upset the car on a shift, since that delays you putting down the power by a fraction of a second. Oh well, at least he's fast doing it his way.
11-19-07, 12:46 AM
#88
Lives on the Forum
If you slip the clutch when you're letting it out then it spreads out the force of accelerating the engine up to speed and it won't upset the car as much, but it'll wear the clutch faster, and clutches aren't the easiest things to replace.
11-19-07, 08:29 AM
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that is why you heel toe it gets rid of the tendancy to upset the car by just dumping the clutch on a down shift without heel toe. This guy was slipping it on the downshift which is hard on the clutch.
I dont know about rotary motors and clutch changes but all the other clutches i've changed have been done in under an hour so i dont see how you can say a clutch change isn't easy. Its probably different on a rotary motor. The only time it took me more than an hour to do a clutch was on my buddys ford focus... Damn FWD cars and having to basically pull the motor to put a clutch in lol. The axels and everything have to come out its a huge pain.
I dont know about rotary motors and clutch changes but all the other clutches i've changed have been done in under an hour so i dont see how you can say a clutch change isn't easy. Its probably different on a rotary motor. The only time it took me more than an hour to do a clutch was on my buddys ford focus... Damn FWD cars and having to basically pull the motor to put a clutch in lol. The axels and everything have to come out its a huge pain.
11-19-07, 10:48 AM
#90
Lives on the Forum
Well my point was that you'll have to remove the transmission to get at it, and that'll be a pain in the butt for a trackside mechanic or someone doing it at home. Maybe it won't take that long, but its still longer and more work than not having to do it at all.
11-19-07, 11:47 AM
#91
I've listened to that video a few times, and I don't hear the revs increasing at all until the clutch is released. And its not like that engine is quiet when he's on the gas. Either way, he's not rev matching which is what everyone is referring to with "heel/toe".
12-30-07, 07:52 PM
#92
At the beginning of Initial D (First Stage), Takumi is 18 and it is Summer. At the end of Fourth Stage, he is 19 and the S15 Silvia and the R34 Skyline GTR V-specII Nur have made appearances. The V-specII Nur began production in October 2000, so the earliest it could be is the Summer of 2001.
This places Takumi's birthday in 1982, most likely in the Spring. And given his driving style, I'd wager late March to Early April.
This places Takumi's birthday in 1982, most likely in the Spring. And given his driving style, I'd wager late March to Early April.
RE: Initial D
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
12-30-07, 07:55 PM
#93
the timeframe in initial D isn't consistent........First stage, the FD (S6) was new, Fourth Stage, GT-R VSpec II Nur's were out, and at most, 2 years passed between the stages.
1 year passed betweem First Stage and Third Stage, based on what the characters said.
1 year passed betweem First Stage and Third Stage, based on what the characters said.
12-31-07, 01:58 AM
#94
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I always thought Takumi was under 16 before he was delivering tofu, and about 16 when he started racing. Besides, dont the old busnessmen like the 16 year old girls? They are legal in Japan. Damn, I wish I was there.
12-31-07, 03:05 PM
#95
If the FD (series 6) was new, that'd be in 1993, two years before Kyoichi's Evo3 came out. That's mean that the Emperor team wouldn't exist at all, since their Lan-Evos hadn't even bee designed, much less built. Plus, it's be before Kenta's S14 started production (October 1993). Plus, the AE111 didn't come out untill 1996 (started production May 1995), so how could Takumi's dad obtain an engine for a car that hasn't been built yet, much less a Group A racing variety of said engine?
Takumi is 18 in First Stage and it's Summer. In Second Stage, it is Fall. Third Stage covers the remainder of Fall, Winter and then the next Spring. Fourth Stage picks up the next Summer, ending probably in August.
Production start dates:
S14: October 1993
FD: December 1991 (s6), March 1995 (Keisuke's Type R Bathurst)
CE9A Evo3: February 1995
CN9A Evo4: August 1996
CP9A Evo5/6: January 1998/January 1999
GC8V (Bunta's used STi Version 5): September 1998
You can find all of the relevant data here, courtesy of Auto Vladistockhttp://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/
If you recall in Fourth Stage, right after the race against the Suzuki Cappuccino, Takumi said that he is 19. The only wayt for all of the pieces to fit together is if it Fourth Stage is set in the Summer of 2001 at the earliest
Takumi is 18 in First Stage and it's Summer. In Second Stage, it is Fall. Third Stage covers the remainder of Fall, Winter and then the next Spring. Fourth Stage picks up the next Summer, ending probably in August.
Production start dates:
S14: October 1993
FD: December 1991 (s6), March 1995 (Keisuke's Type R Bathurst)
CE9A Evo3: February 1995
CN9A Evo4: August 1996
CP9A Evo5/6: January 1998/January 1999
GC8V (Bunta's used STi Version 5): September 1998
You can find all of the relevant data here, courtesy of Auto Vladistockhttp://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/
If you recall in Fourth Stage, right after the race against the Suzuki Cappuccino, Takumi said that he is 19. The only wayt for all of the pieces to fit together is if it Fourth Stage is set in the Summer of 2001 at the earliest
12-31-07, 03:27 PM
#96
my point is there is no way to put all the things together......Initial D does not follow a the real life timeframe.
Quote from Iketani in third stage: "Remember Takumi? It was last summer when you appeared on the stage of Mt. Akina."
First stage: Summer/Fall of first year
Second stage: Spring of second year
Third stage: Summer/Winter of second year, Spring of third year
Fourth Stage: Summer of third year.
The answers to your question? It's an anime! The writers are not bound to logic. The real reason why the timeframe for the cars are so spread apart? Look how many years passed between the creation of first stage, the creation of second stage, the creation of third stage and the creation of fourth stage. Why do you care so much to try to fit it in the real world time frame?
Only two years have passed by between the 4 stages. You've started when the S14 was new, the S6 and the R32 were still popular, and ended when the S2000 and the VSpec II Nur have arrived. There is no set timeframe. Initial D is set in the year 199X, as quoted from the writers.
Quote from Iketani in third stage: "Remember Takumi? It was last summer when you appeared on the stage of Mt. Akina."
First stage: Summer/Fall of first year
Second stage: Spring of second year
Third stage: Summer/Winter of second year, Spring of third year
Fourth Stage: Summer of third year.
The answers to your question? It's an anime! The writers are not bound to logic. The real reason why the timeframe for the cars are so spread apart? Look how many years passed between the creation of first stage, the creation of second stage, the creation of third stage and the creation of fourth stage. Why do you care so much to try to fit it in the real world time frame?
Only two years have passed by between the 4 stages. You've started when the S14 was new, the S6 and the R32 were still popular, and ended when the S2000 and the VSpec II Nur have arrived. There is no set timeframe. Initial D is set in the year 199X, as quoted from the writers.
12-31-07, 03:46 PM
#97
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
No, Fourth Stage takes place the summer after First Stage... only a year has passed.
Takumi even says he's 19 years old in Fourth Stage...
Of course, the manga has been going on for ~13 years, just like WM has been going on for like 15... but obviously they're not going to limit themselves to just the cars that were out at the time.
The authors can retcon whatever the hell they want.
(...and why have we gone into an Initial D tangent, exactly?)
Takumi even says he's 19 years old in Fourth Stage...
Of course, the manga has been going on for ~13 years, just like WM has been going on for like 15... but obviously they're not going to limit themselves to just the cars that were out at the time.
The authors can retcon whatever the hell they want.
(...and why have we gone into an Initial D tangent, exactly?)
01-01-08, 11:52 AM
#98
I don't know........but still if you go by the anime................
Doesn't Iketani/Kenji/Itsuki at the beginning of third stage during the summertime, say that it was just last summer when Takumi appeared? And then a couple seasons passed during that movie? (Fall/Winter/Spring)
Doesn't Iketani/Kenji/Itsuki at the beginning of third stage during the summertime, say that it was just last summer when Takumi appeared? And then a couple seasons passed during that movie? (Fall/Winter/Spring)
