Heel and toe necessary in rotary?
10-09-07, 10:26 PM
#53
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I also sidestep it, I just can't do a real heel and toe with my 6'3" frame and size 12 shoes, but that's really just a bad, confining term to describe a rev matching downshift.
10-14-07, 02:18 AM
#54
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i dont know. ive driven and FB and my FC all the time. i have no problem heel and toe-ing in either of them. i also have size 13 feet. so i dont think its impossible at all, just takes alot of practice. sit in you car with it off, and practice till you feel comfortable, then try it out with it running. it can be used for trackdays/autox/and grocery duties, just takes some getting used to.
10-17-07, 02:09 PM
#55
Initial D explaination (skip if uninterested)
It's not just one movie, several seasons, more movies and special releases.
In the show, the boy's father (former legendary street-racer) teaches his son to be a great driver as well. The gag is that the boy thinks of driving as nothing but a chore (since he only drove for the family business), and doesn't even realize how awesome his driving skills are.
The boy eventually is discovered by the local street-racer scene, and the boy slowly figures out that driving is fun as he battles against modern cars (FD, Imprezza, Evo, Skyline, etc) in his outdated Toyota Corrolla AE86 twin-cam. And we see him develop into even a more awesome driver. An interesting look into Japan's street-racing/drifting scene (I think the "D" stands for "Drift"). Animation is so-so, not the Pixar computer stuff you'd hope for. But some attention was paid to how the cars handle and behave. Things like tire wear and body roll, suspension geometry, etc, are all taken into account in the show. THEY EVEN USE HEAL-TOE. One big inaccuracy is that DRIFTING is used extensively to show, "hey this guy is fast!"
If you like cars, and can suspend disbelief for a while, the show is entertaining.
Great thread BTW, I've done this often without knowing that "THIS" was the heal-toe thing. Not all that much a mystery, but i'm sure that the application is not so easily said.
10-18-07, 09:57 AM
#56
Old Rotary Dog
I used to be reasonably decent at heel-toe (certainly nothing to write home about) but with my FD in the garage I haven't been driving a manual tranny in quite a while except when I get to drive the FC at track events (not too often these days). Needless to say, I got out of practice.
This past month at VIR w/ MazdaDrivers, I found that my heel-toe was so sloppy, I was unbalancing the car during hard braking (eg. going into T1). Essentially I was lifting on the brake when blipping the throttle, and lurching the car when I let the clutch out. I talked it through with my instructor and decided to forget trying to heel-toe. Instead I would brake normally and downshift a little earlier before the engine revs drop too far. It worked well and certainly got me over the hump to where I could focus on other aspects of driving.
Good heel-toe would have probably allowed me to get a little deeper in the braking zone, but bad heel-toe was impacting the entire turn (and thus exit speed, etc.).
Moral of the story? Heel-toe is certainly a good skill to have, but trying to force it when it's not happening just makes it get in your way.
-b
This past month at VIR w/ MazdaDrivers, I found that my heel-toe was so sloppy, I was unbalancing the car during hard braking (eg. going into T1). Essentially I was lifting on the brake when blipping the throttle, and lurching the car when I let the clutch out. I talked it through with my instructor and decided to forget trying to heel-toe. Instead I would brake normally and downshift a little earlier before the engine revs drop too far. It worked well and certainly got me over the hump to where I could focus on other aspects of driving.
Good heel-toe would have probably allowed me to get a little deeper in the braking zone, but bad heel-toe was impacting the entire turn (and thus exit speed, etc.).
Moral of the story? Heel-toe is certainly a good skill to have, but trying to force it when it's not happening just makes it get in your way.
-b
10-23-07, 06:47 PM
#57
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balance is everything you dont want the weight of your car shifting around coming into a turn escpecially if you trail brake. heel toe is mandatory as most people said, you want to brake shift well doing it but keeping the shift smooth so when u turn your car hits its "set" faster so then you can get back on the throttle sooner>.>
or you can just keep it in 2nd gear the whole race.......swear its good on your engine!
or you can just keep it in 2nd gear the whole race.......swear its good on your engine!
10-25-07, 01:35 AM
#58
RE: Initial D
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
Last edited by Roen; 10-25-07 at 01:43 AM.
10-25-07, 10:34 AM
#59
Lives on the Forum
It's all different on a loose surface or a wet surface than when comparing to dry road conditions. There's no point in making comparisons. Rolling friction is higher because the tire conforms somewhat to the texture of the road, effectively increasing the contact patch, maybe getting some bonding, and getting an interlocking effect to get an additonal sideways load path. In really tight corners getting the back end around quickly with a drift can be quicker. On loose surfaces the slip and wheel spin can help get down to the harder, grippier bottom layer.
10-25-07, 11:26 AM
#60
RE: Initial D
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The difference is the level of grip allowed by the surface. I understand that the japanese mountain driving and other off-tarmac hillclimbs like Pike's peak are more similar to dirt-track racing than pavement. I think it's the dirt track precedent that got emulated on the street, which is where it lost relevance to racing.
Dave
10-25-07, 12:03 PM
#61
It's all different on a loose surface or a wet surface than when comparing to dry road conditions. There's no point in making comparisons. Rolling friction is higher because the tire conforms somewhat to the texture of the road, effectively increasing the contact patch, maybe getting some bonding, and getting an interlocking effect to get an additonal sideways load path. In really tight corners getting the back end around quickly with a drift can be quicker. On loose surfaces the slip and wheel spin can help get down to the harder, grippier bottom layer.
Tire technology has changed but not that much.
The difference is the level of grip allowed by the surface. I understand that the japanese mountain driving and other off-tarmac hillclimbs like Pike's peak are more similar to dirt-track racing than pavement. I think it's the dirt track precedent that got emulated on the street, which is where it lost relevance to racing.
Dave
The difference is the level of grip allowed by the surface. I understand that the japanese mountain driving and other off-tarmac hillclimbs like Pike's peak are more similar to dirt-track racing than pavement. I think it's the dirt track precedent that got emulated on the street, which is where it lost relevance to racing.
Dave
I'd say on grip level alone, the tires have changed a lot. Just compare today's highest performing street tire (Advans or Potenzas, take your pick) vs. the top tires of the time. I'd say leaps and bounds in changes have been made, and not just with grip level.
10-29-07, 04:30 PM
#62
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Rode with an instructor one time that didn't heel-toe and it felt like CRAP. Seemed to me the only excuse for that is if you're deliberately trying to upset the car and get it sideways and set up for a drift....
11-10-07, 03:34 PM
#65
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i just need to throw my 2 cents in on this, anytime you are on the track or even driving around town and you have a manual trans you need to be rev matching, heel toeing whatever you feel that you must call it, but it is a REQUIREMENT for a manual trans car. The only time you should ever shift your car without rev matching is if you have a lot of money and have one of those really cool sequential paddle shift f1 style trannys, those have computers that rev match for you when you down shift.
I have learned a lot of different driving techniques through the years and the key to getting fast times on the track is that braking is not your friend, you want to carry as much momentum through turns as possible, if you do this your going to come out of the other side of the turn after you apex it, you will be on the gas and in the powerband. Now there's no way your getting around a track without braking, thats where trail braking comes in, it lets you get as deep in the corner as possible while carrying as much momentum as possible. You WILL NOT be able to carry momentum through turns without heel toeing, if you watch someone take a turn that rev matches and then watch them take the same turn without rev matching when they downshift they will look much more rough going through the turn. They just wont look smooth going through turns. All this is what i have learned from my many teachers that i have had over the years. I was lucky, i just happened to work across the street from STILLEN and my boss was partners with Steve Millen and used to race with him out at riverside raceway before they shut it down. Both my boss, Mr. Millen and numerous other people that have made names for themselves in the racing industry have told me the same thing. If you dont heel toe your not going to drive very well and your abusing your equipment for no reason. Not rev matching is lazy driving and its just something you dont do.
My opinion take it or leave it, its what i was taught and when Steve Millen gives me driving advice i dont question i just say "yes sir Mr. Millen whatever you say sir"
I have learned a lot of different driving techniques through the years and the key to getting fast times on the track is that braking is not your friend, you want to carry as much momentum through turns as possible, if you do this your going to come out of the other side of the turn after you apex it, you will be on the gas and in the powerband. Now there's no way your getting around a track without braking, thats where trail braking comes in, it lets you get as deep in the corner as possible while carrying as much momentum as possible. You WILL NOT be able to carry momentum through turns without heel toeing, if you watch someone take a turn that rev matches and then watch them take the same turn without rev matching when they downshift they will look much more rough going through the turn. They just wont look smooth going through turns. All this is what i have learned from my many teachers that i have had over the years. I was lucky, i just happened to work across the street from STILLEN and my boss was partners with Steve Millen and used to race with him out at riverside raceway before they shut it down. Both my boss, Mr. Millen and numerous other people that have made names for themselves in the racing industry have told me the same thing. If you dont heel toe your not going to drive very well and your abusing your equipment for no reason. Not rev matching is lazy driving and its just something you dont do.
My opinion take it or leave it, its what i was taught and when Steve Millen gives me driving advice i dont question i just say "yes sir Mr. Millen whatever you say sir"
11-10-07, 03:50 PM
#66
Lives on the Forum
^Yes and no. When just driving around normally and sedately it's absolutely not necessary, better, yes, necessary, no. Any modern sinchronised transmission will last for years and years and years of doing that, otherwise they wouldn't be able to sell them to average people as they'd wear out and die so quickly.
11-10-07, 05:48 PM
#67
I think that's exactly the point. I don't see anyone here who's saying heel-toe downshifts are not important for racing; they are. It takes some practice, and is not a technique for a pure beginner, but it shouldn't take many sessions before it is worth considering.
It's street driving. Rev matching is a good idea on the street, but you don't need to heel-toe it to rev-match on the street. Which is why I don't do it on the street most of the time.
I must admit I've gotten this thread confused with another that asks whether heel-toe is necessary for street driving. I suspect that has a lot to do with why neither thread will die.
Dave
It's street driving. Rev matching is a good idea on the street, but you don't need to heel-toe it to rev-match on the street. Which is why I don't do it on the street most of the time.
I must admit I've gotten this thread confused with another that asks whether heel-toe is necessary for street driving. I suspect that has a lot to do with why neither thread will die.
Dave
11-11-07, 04:21 PM
#68
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I'd like to put my penny's/cent's worth from across the pond here in England.
On non -synchro gearboxes - dog/crash boxes using precise Heel and Toe protects the box and prevents unsettling the driven wheels which if you driving at anywhere near the limit will lose time.
However, if you're using a synchro box you mustn't be as precise, infact throttle control on clutch re-engagement can be more important, because the synchro/balk ring engagement needs a slippage. If you're good heel & toer you'll kill the box.
On the street its only of value to practise the process, but not the precision, for the track and for most its a complete waste of time!
As Dick pointed out most races use Syncho boxes and should focus on throttle control. If you don't know how to heel & toe a dog box will be both slower and more expensive.
Y
On non -synchro gearboxes - dog/crash boxes using precise Heel and Toe protects the box and prevents unsettling the driven wheels which if you driving at anywhere near the limit will lose time.
However, if you're using a synchro box you mustn't be as precise, infact throttle control on clutch re-engagement can be more important, because the synchro/balk ring engagement needs a slippage. If you're good heel & toer you'll kill the box.
On the street its only of value to practise the process, but not the precision, for the track and for most its a complete waste of time!
As Dick pointed out most races use Syncho boxes and should focus on throttle control. If you don't know how to heel & toe a dog box will be both slower and more expensive.
Y
11-12-07, 04:53 AM
#69
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RE: Initial D
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
If you take into account the timeframe that the car was supposed to be in....92-93, tire technology was nowhere near what we have today. Apparently, in Japan, the pro racers utilized drift as a way to get the most out of the car in the corners, and the street racers emulated them. This is evident in the mountain video that Tsuchiya released that he got into trouble for.
The whole drift vs. grip battle hinges on the level of grip available to the driver, as well as the grip characteristics of the tire. The general rule of thumb is, as mechanical grip goes up, the need to drift goes down. These days, there is no real reason to drift as a matter of going fast around a track. This is even evident in rally, where most WRC drivers refrain from going sideways much. A good example is Gilles Villeneuve's handling of an F1 car in the rain back in the day. You can see that he was definitely drifting his car through the corners. The rally drivers of old also used to get real sideways around turns. If you watch any of the old N1 races in Japan, you can see cars like the GT-R negotiate Tsukaba's final turn somewhat sideways. Even in dirt ovals today, many drivers still go sideways to save time.
While first stage was somewhat believable that drift was a viable tactic and parts of second and third stage as well. In the timeframe of the cars of fourth stage (fourth stage had cars like R34 V-Spec Nur and S2000), there really wasn't any need to drift, and you could see that in the races of fourth stage. Most of them end up being battles using very little drifting and predominantly grip driving.
Going back to the main topic, heel-toe is just a method that allows you downshift under braking without upsetting the car, if done properly. Rotary, piston, turbine, as long as it has a stock-style transmission, it's needed, It's especially important for us Rotary guys (especially the NA guys, like myself), as it allows you to stay in your powerband. You could also brake and rev-match downshift as well, but heel-toe combines that into one motion. I had the pleasure of riding in one of my instructor's LS1-FD, and he didn't heel-toe much. Off the back straight at Poconos East course, he would brake, turn in, and while turning in and setting up for the corner, he would rev-match downshift. He also didn't downshift in certain places that I had to, since he had the torque to stay in a higher gear. Whereas, I had to downshift via heel-toe much more to stay in the meat of my powerband.
I consider the modern school of heel-toe to teach the sidestep method, or the roll your foot on to the gas method, and the classical school of heel-toe to keep the toe on the brake while actuating the gas with the heel. I can do both, but I prefer the classical method. (I'm 6'1" with a 34" inseam)
As for shoes, I look for shoes with the thinnest sole possible. They're not very comfortable to wear around though. Usually, Puma's fit the bill for me. Both my driving shoes are Pumas. They're not actually "racing" shoes though, just ones with a really thin sole.
Anyways, I like to think about it like this.
1) we drive with regualr transmissions. Heel toe technique only helps our synchros
2) we drive rwd, if we didnt downshift earlier we would b forced into a late braking/downshift which could upset our rear tires
3) Dont we want to brake as late as possible into a turn most of the time, generally speaking?(not all situations)
I know if we knew a road course real well, we could know the track and anticipate the turns semi pro status, but I don't want to say I could take every turn premeditated. Doesnt every second count?
Last edited by initial D is REAL!; 11-12-07 at 05:05 AM.
11-13-07, 04:28 PM
#70
I'm a newb. you can flame away at me, if you want.
Heel/toe will do a couple things for you.
1. It will decrease engine wear, synchro wear, and clutch wear.
2. It will make your downshift smoother
3. Because you will be braking the whole time, and maximize your time engine braking, you will brake faster/more efficiently. This=better braking.
Heel/toe will do a couple things for you.
1. It will decrease engine wear, synchro wear, and clutch wear.
2. It will make your downshift smoother
3. Because you will be braking the whole time, and maximize your time engine braking, you will brake faster/more efficiently. This=better braking.
11-13-07, 04:42 PM
#71
1. Yes, but you increase clutch hydraulics wear, as well as bearing wear. Probably would increase clutch wear too, now that I think about it.
2. Agreed, unless you screw up
3. Agreed, though if you're the perfect braker and always at the threshold, doesn't really matter what gear you're in at that point, since any more reduction in speed will lock the wheels. Though, none of us are THAT good. (I wish!)
2. Agreed, unless you screw up
3. Agreed, though if you're the perfect braker and always at the threshold, doesn't really matter what gear you're in at that point, since any more reduction in speed will lock the wheels. Though, none of us are THAT good. (I wish!)
11-14-07, 01:02 AM
#73
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11-14-07, 07:30 AM
#74
You won't be slipping as much, but you'll be constantly engaging and re-engaging the clutch, which is still a form of working the clutch. You're forcing a friction surface on and off the transmission. I would think that would lead to increased wear.
11-14-07, 05:19 PM
#75
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It would be great to have a study done on cost of using brakes vs. brakes+engine braking. On the side of the brakes, the cost of the pads will be taken into account. For the engine braking, the cost of clutch wear. I wonder... which one is more economical...