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HEAT-TREAT or Cryo Science

Old 11-13-05, 09:01 PM
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HEAT-TREAT or Cryo Science

MM , now my ITE FC, got a very strange setup. she got 13BPP. on turbo housing and turbo transmission. with NA 5.1 Final drive, so in order to hook up every thing. I need to use Aftermarket turbo drive shaft, with NA Rear Flange.
Accoarding to DAVE at MAZDATRIX. he said the Material of Aftermarekt drive shaft, is not hard enought, if you in Race condion long enought, it will Destory the Tranmission Tail shaft bushing!! so I am going to take my Shafte out to got some treat to increase material stiffines

So here is my Q, Which of Service is better ?
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Old 11-14-05, 01:23 PM
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Any good Cryo treating place will heat treat the material after it has been frozen if possible. Some things are not possible to do both as some parts, or pieces of parts will melt or deform (rubber, plastic, to thin of metal etc.).

Typically they lower the temps over a 24 hour period to the desired cold temperature and then let it "soak in the cold" for 24 hours. Then they reverse the process by bringing it back up to room temp over another 24 hours after which they will repeat the process, but instead of lowering the temp, they raise it.

The tanks they use to treat materials use Liquid nitrogen and the better units have heating elements in them.

Here is a good link with lots of good info, though not working at the moment.
http://www.300degrees.com/
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Old 11-14-05, 06:36 PM
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Buy two transmission yokes and change the yoke when it starts to wear. This will be in about ten years of serious racing. I have used the regular yoke on the needle bearing type transmissions for many years on the track. one shot heat treat will cost more than having a yoke custom made from a billet stock. Put the driveshaft on your inspection routine before and after every race and monitor the wear. Then when the yoke looks to be wearing change it. Cryo treatment is not the process you need.
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Old 11-15-05, 09:27 AM
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first off cryo treating does nothing. Heat treatment will change the mechanical properties of the metal which also depends heavily on what type of microstructure was produced during the phase transformations when the material was initally made. Cryo treating does not influence the microstructre of the metal as it can not recrystalize the grain structure.

The cryo cooling of any metal when described by a euctectoid reaction shows the same composition of metals on both sides of the equal sign. Meaning nothing happens when you cryotreat. THe only way cooling changes anything is when you control the heating of the sample and control the rate of cooling forcing the material to pass through different phase transformations.

As for your tail shaft problem. Mazdacomp sells a hardened yoke and a bearing setup for the tail of the transmission. That should solve your problem.
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Old 11-15-05, 11:47 AM
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The problem is your rear end ratio... it spins the driveshaft at an insane RPM. Ever spin something too fast and the **** just explodes? That's pretty much what's going to happen...

Several people here have posted "help me's" and they were running 5.12 rears. Tom Thrash (local EP racer and experimenter extraordinaire) had those problems.... switched back to a 4.88 (or something, don't remember) and those problems magically dissapeared.
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Old 11-15-05, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheers!
first off cryo treating does nothing. Heat treatment will change the mechanical properties of the metal which also depends heavily on what type of microstructure was produced during the phase transformations when the material was initally made. Cryo treating does not influence the microstructre of the metal as it can not recrystalize the grain structure.

The cryo cooling of any metal when described by a euctectoid reaction shows the same composition of metals on both sides of the equal sign. Meaning nothing happens when you cryotreat. THe only way cooling changes anything is when you control the heating of the sample and control the rate of cooling forcing the material to pass through different phase transformations.
While the cryo companies misrepresent the physics behind it (often quite badly), it does make changes to martensitic steels by converting more of the retained austenite to martensite. How much depends greatly on how well heat-treated the original part was. How useful this is depends on whether reduced internal stresses and increased hardness is worth the cost of treatment. It also has significant effects on materials other than martensitic steel, but these are less studied.

In any case, many, many cryo treatments are not worth the cost since the replacement part is cheaper and easy to change out. You and tims make a good case for not using cryo in this situation. But the cryo process is not complete fluff - only frustrating since there is so little useful information available.
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Old 11-15-05, 05:56 PM
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Not saying cryo treatment is totally useless. Just not correct for this particular problem. Material science has progressed light years since my college days so I can't say whether cryo works or is worth the money.
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Old 11-15-05, 08:35 PM
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I've just gone through a bunch of stuff on a car I hep out on. You can read about it in a thread called "The $10,000 driveshaft" If you have to run the 5.12 gear go with the hardened yoke and roller bearing or at least the yoke and a new bushing about every six events or so. All the problems we've had has led me to keep the stock final drive in my own car that's under construction and get the ratios I want from a $5k racing tranny. You may also consider getting your driveshaft balanced by Dynotech Engineering, it's the only place that can spin one to 8k rpm. If you've done the math you know yours could be spinning over 10 or 11k!!!
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Old 11-15-05, 08:56 PM
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Thanks for all the help.

here are the different of my setup. Instead of NA RX-7 or FB. Miata Transmission. I am using Turbo Tranmsisson from what I know the Drive shaft is much bigger , so I wonder Mazda speed sell harder yoke for NA or turbo?

On my Rear end setup. Althought I am using 5.12 rear end, but my wheel and tire combo is 18inch wheel with tires, which is 27.8 OD, so at most of time My RPM is not as fast as you guys think...

in the mean time, I will consider to got my drive shaft balance and heat treat..
thanks for all the advice

J
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Old 11-17-05, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dgeesaman
While the cryo companies misrepresent the physics behind it (often quite badly), it does make changes to martensitic steels by converting more of the retained austenite to martensite. How much depends greatly on how well heat-treated the original part was. How useful this is depends on whether reduced internal stresses and increased hardness is worth the cost of treatment. It also has significant effects on materials other than martensitic steel, but these are less studied.

In any case, many, many cryo treatments are not worth the cost since the replacement part is cheaper and easy to change out. You and tims make a good case for not using cryo in this situation. But the cryo process is not complete fluff - only frustrating since there is so little useful information available.
My materials engineering knowledge is limited to one 3rd year university course I took 2 years ago in the mechanical engineering department. My background is engineering physics, electrical engineering so my mechanical knowledge isn't so great.

I do remember speaking with the professor after class one day when he was discussing heat treaments and processes for steels. I asked him if cryo treating did anything as people were saying cryotreating brake rotors prevents warpage and increases surface hardness. His short answer was no, since no more phase transformations occur after a cetrain temperature. He explained there have been many claims on cryo treating by companies and people but none of the results would be reproduceable when tried. For that reason there is no ASME standard for cryotreating. I work in aerospace and not once have I heard of any part being cryotreated. To me that is evident enough to suggest there are no gains to be made with cryotreating.
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Old 11-17-05, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheers!
My materials engineering knowledge is limited to one 3rd year university course I took 2 years ago in the mechanical engineering department. My background is engineering physics, electrical engineering so my mechanical knowledge isn't so great.

I do remember speaking with the professor after class one day when he was discussing heat treaments and processes for steels. I asked him if cryo treating did anything as people were saying cryotreating brake rotors prevents warpage and increases surface hardness. His short answer was no, since no more phase transformations occur after a cetrain temperature. He explained there have been many claims on cryo treating by companies and people but none of the results would be reproduceable when tried. For that reason there is no ASME standard for cryotreating. I work in aerospace and not once have I heard of any part being cryotreated. To me that is evident enough to suggest there are no gains to be made with cryotreating.
That was my original opinion, and I have similar background (BSME). But upon further research, I currently stand with:

- cryo is very poorly studied, and when it works the results are closely tied to a particular material and manufacturing process. The cryo business is loaded with folks who bought a machine and want to treat everything/anything you're willing to pay them for - and they persist with this approach since most of their customers don't clearly understand how to measure the success of the process, or the economics of whether the improvement is justified. And the cryo businesses themselves usually lack that background as well.

So for businesses and race teams that might make use of cryo, it also makes sense they keep quiet about their successes to maintain their competitive advantage, but I have heard very little about them buying their own cryo equipment, so I think that's more a story than reality.

- cryo is counterintuitive - usually structural materials only change phases when they are much above room temperature - but who's to say 273K is where all transformations stop? Just skimming my materials books, I see the 100% martensite transformation occurs as low as 350K for some steels. Perhaps colder temps do have a place in this scheme.

- I read/found studies showing that hardness increases when cryo is used for many materials including steels, copper alloys, plastics, and more. But they are few/far between, and I'm not sure if US academia is involved with it.

- I personally have considered paying to have a few brake rotors cryo treated, then use the handheld hardness tester at work to see the before/after effects. However, due to past complications with field assessment teams borrowing the tester I'm staying away from it. IMO a good cryo shop would have a hardness tester anyway.

So I've opened to the idea of cryo somewhat, but it seems that it's buyer beware. I personally would never do it unless I can first test a sample for before/after results, and continue to get those before/after results on all treated parts. You know, the Missouri approach.

Dave
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Old 01-27-06, 05:50 AM
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Sorry by bring this tread from dead

Being calling Dynotech for pass few day. and finally they told me. They dont do custom Balance any more..... I ask why? and they told me. they no longer have tooling for that !!!. I was like well. can you recomond any shop do this type of service? he told me try to look "drivetrain Enterprise " but I search and search on google . just cant not find any thing ? can any one help me here ??


PS I think I just found the company. the guy at dynotech should mean Mark Williams Enterprises in CO , did any one heard this shop before ? they seen to be good in the industry ?

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Old 01-27-06, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by christaylor
The problem is your rear end ratio... it spins the driveshaft at an insane RPM. Ever spin something too fast and the **** just explodes? That's pretty much what's going to happen...

Several people here have posted "help me's" and they were running 5.12 rears. Tom Thrash (local EP racer and experimenter extraordinaire) had those problems.... switched back to a 4.88 (or something, don't remember) and those problems magically dissapeared.
Tom is running 4.44's along with Mike and myself. I had a 5.12 in it untill Tom conviced me to change it.

Opps, I didn't realize this was an old thread. I have no idea regarding your question. I would assume that Dave or the Racing Beat folkes would be able to help.

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Old 02-02-06, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by christaylor
The problem is your rear end ratio... it spins the driveshaft at an insane RPM. Ever spin something too fast and the **** just explodes? That's pretty much what's going to happen...

the driveshaft spins proportional to the engien rpm and tranny gear. it has nothing to do with the rear-end ratio.

4th gear, 1:1
if you spin the motor 9krpm, the driveshaft spins 9krpm, reguardless of if you have a 5.1 final drive, or a 3.9... the thing that changes is how fast the axles/tires spin.
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Old 02-02-06, 11:10 AM
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Guitar Junkie: Rethink what you said above. The drive shaft spins as a function of tire diameter, rear end ratio and mph. The drive shaft rpm has nothing to do with transmission gear ratio or engine rpm. I can be coasting at 100 mph with my engine off (zero engine rpm) and the drive shaft will turn the rpms it does based on tire dia, rear end ratio and the mph speed the car is covering. My road race car running 100 mph will spin the driveshaft at a certain rpm regardless of whether I am in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear. When selecting the right rear end gear ratio for a road race car, you need a good estimate of what speed mph the car will hit on the longest straight on the race track.

Now selecing the right rear end gear ratio for a track means that you do have to take into account the mph your think your car will turn at the end of the longest straight, the rpm you want your engine to max out at, your 5th gear ratio, and your tire diameter - then you solve for rear end gear ratio.

If you ain't hitting the red line in 5th gear at the end of the longest straight on the race track, then you are geared too tall. I run what ever rear end ratio it takes to make my PP road racer redline 5th at the longest straight on each race track I run on. Yes, I change rear end ratios all the time - from 4.08 at Daytona, to 4.44 at Road Atlanta and VIR, to 4.88 at Carolina Motorsports Park, to 5.13 at Barber Motorsports Park. Yes, I run twin needle roller bearings in the tailshaft housing with a hardened yoke. Yes, my driveshaft was professionally built and balanced by a NASCAR driveline shop.

The lowest cost, safe solution is to try starting off with a new bronze tailshaft bushing and a new Mazda yoke. Keep an eye on wear by taking out the driveshaft and inspecting the yoke & bushing every few hundred miles of race track time.
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Old 02-02-06, 11:48 AM
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if you're overspinning the driveshaft, you're GROSSLY overspinning the motor.

i guess if you're doing 200mph in neutral, you can hurt the driveshaft without hurting the motor, but yea...that scenario will happen.
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Old 02-02-06, 04:54 PM
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Some more update for my drive shaft.

Been calling around seen to be. The shop who can balance the Drive shaft over 8000RPM. They dont balance the import car... Because They all told me, They dont have tooling for the IMPORT.

Well this leave me not too many option to choose. I think I will try to use Carbon fiber drive shaft from ACPT IN SCA. They Claim they can build the drive shaft spin over 10K. and have yoke hard enought to stand abuse of Road race. I was wonder did any of Forum member try this setup before ??
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Old 02-02-06, 06:21 PM
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I think I see a confusion of terminology.

The driveshaft (aka the propeller shaft) runs from the tranny to differential. It spins at the same RPM as the engine in 4th gear, which if you can get to redline might be 8-9k. In 5th, it's actually spinning faster, but most of us can't reach redline in 5th anyway.

The axles spin faster, and are a function of tire size, rear end ratio, and driveshaft rpms. I suppose Speedturn is referring to these.

Dave
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Old 02-02-06, 06:57 PM
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they're all relative to eachother and i get what he was saying. he's just not looking at it the right way.

his train of thought is probably something like 100mph with a 4.1, then 100mph with a 5.1 will spin the driveshaft faster. true...sorta, but the driveshaft, which gets turned by the motor, is spinning the rear end.
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Old 02-20-06, 10:22 PM
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Up until 10 years ago I worked for a company that made product for the US Military and we cryo treated 52100 steel parts to meet their specifications. Under magnification the structor of the steel does change. We also used the cryo process to heat treat some steels such as vacumel.
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Old 03-02-06, 03:43 AM
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Cryo is used to stabalize materials. We use it on die sections so the cutting edges last longer and resist cracking. Yes it may cause some hardening but that's not the main reason for it's use.(at least not in tool and die) Yes it would help keep rotors from warping by stabalizing the material.(spreads the different alloys more evenly throughout the structure.) Hardness is not the deciding factor as to whether something will warp due to heat and stress. A lot of materials depending on how they were cast have stress present in them and when you heat them up they warp due to this stress. A lot of cheap rotors show this stress in the form of surface cracks.
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Old 03-02-06, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by diyman25
MM , now my ITE FC, got a very strange setup. she got 13BPP. on turbo housing and turbo transmission. with NA 5.1 Final drive, so in order to hook up every thing. I need to use Aftermarket turbo drive shaft, with NA Rear Flange.
Accoarding to DAVE at MAZDATRIX. he said the Material of Aftermarekt drive shaft, is not hard enought, if you in Race condion long enought, it will Destory the Tranmission Tail shaft bushing!! so I am going to take my Shafte out to got some treat to increase material stiffines

So here is my Q, Which of Service is better ?
Heat treat increases overall material hardness, which makes it more brittle in the end.

Cryo does the overall material hardness increase but also adds toughness.

I know cryo places usually charge by the pound with a minimum amount. In the end, just have one custom made. I can goto Cat Co and get one made for 200-300 bucks that would take more abuse than my 20b would ever throw at it.
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Old 03-02-06, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheers!
first off cryo treating does nothing. Heat treatment will change the mechanical properties of the metal which also depends heavily on what type of microstructure was produced during the phase transformations when the material was initally made. Cryo treating does not influence the microstructre of the metal as it can not recrystalize the grain structure.

The cryo cooling of any metal when described by a euctectoid reaction shows the same composition of metals on both sides of the equal sign. Meaning nothing happens when you cryotreat. THe only way cooling changes anything is when you control the heating of the sample and control the rate of cooling forcing the material to pass through different phase transformations.

As for your tail shaft problem. Mazdacomp sells a hardened yoke and a bearing setup for the tail of the transmission. That should solve your problem.

Cryo takes the remaining austinite and transforms it to martinsite upon cooling.
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Old 03-02-06, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dgeesaman
I think I see a confusion of terminology.

The driveshaft (aka the propeller shaft) runs from the tranny to differential. It spins at the same RPM as the engine in 4th gear, which if you can get to redline might be 8-9k. In 5th, it's actually spinning faster, but most of us can't reach redline in 5th anyway.

The axles spin faster, and are a function of tire size, rear end ratio, and driveshaft rpms. I suppose Speedturn is referring to these.

Dave
For some reason I re-read what I wrote and see a mistake: the axles spin slower than the driveshaft according to the diff ratio. (But that wasn't near the center of the discussion.)

However, the main point remains: you can't get a driveshaft to spin much faster than 9k.

Dave
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Old 03-02-06, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Quadulus
Cryo takes the remaining austinite and transforms it to martinsite upon cooling.
^What he said. Cryo works best on steel parts subject to wear. Gears, brake rotors, cutting tools. If it's done properly it can greatly increase wear resistance. If it's done poorly it can increase brittleness or have no effect at all.
It should be followed by tempering. I charge $5lb. with one week turnaround.
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