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Fuel starvation in 3rd gen--solutions?

Old 03-01-07, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HedgeHog
Minor update: My friend is getting a scanned set of instructions sent from FEED. So as soon as I get it, I'll post it up to show how the part fits.

Thanks for the update, I will be waiting.
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Old 03-01-07, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HedgeHog
okey dokey....I found a tank baffle from FEED that claims to solve our problems. I have a friend who has a car import/parts business (quite a large one) and can get it. However, in respect of the forum rules, I've emailed Ramy to see if he can do it too. So let's see what he says.
Hedge, forum rules don't *require* you to go through me by any means whatsoever. Of course, that's not to say that I wouldn't GREATLY appreciate your support, however Just plz, don't feel like you're being *forced* to do so. Rather, I'd hope that you'd *want* to

Having said that, I don't mind running a GB on 'em no prob. BUT, before we do, I'd suggest giving me a week or two to poke around the bush, and see what other similar products are offered in JDM land, rather than jumping on this one head-first. I'll post up what I find, or simply say this is all I've found. That way we can make the most well-informed decision. Sound good?

Thanks!
~Ramy
FDNewbie Imports

PS: Dan, thanks for the head's up buddy
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Old 03-02-07, 05:06 AM
  #78  
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If you're up for a bit of fabrication, this has been proven to work over here



Lift pump in this case is a standard FD unit - missing the filter sock atm. Boss on the right accomodates the sender unit (with modification)



Hose clamps secure the pump through this mount.



Basically require two of the rubber gaskets above and below the flange to seal the tank top. Will also require mods to reposition the pressure pump back on the lid into the deeper section of the well and of course two more electrical connections.
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Old 03-02-07, 07:44 AM
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Thats's it. Basically an in-tank surge tank.
Is this fitted to an FD? Any idea of the tank volume?
Any more pics of the complete setup - fitment of the pressure pump, fuel level sensor, additional wiring, cover. etc.
Regards,
Crispy
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Old 03-02-07, 01:03 PM
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^^^
I'm with Crispy, very interested in complete setup.

Nice post Billyboy!
Regards,
Oliver
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Old 03-02-07, 06:52 PM
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I think that fuel tank can be had at a low, low price

Seriously, I gave Peter permission to post the images and instructions. I think you have this info as well and you're certainly welcome to do that.

How's are you BTW?

Gene

Originally Posted by CrispyRX7
I'm liking this but I can't seem to picture how this is going to fit through the OEM tank opening. More info please

As Pete mentions below one member fixed the problem by capping the OEM baffle box and placing several (4 I think) large fuel cell ball check valves around the periphery of the OEM baffle box - permitted flow in from any side but never allowed fuel to slosh out of migrate out of the tank.

I would experience fuel starvation in turn 3 at VIR on Hoosiers at 1/2 tank. teh tunr is a 5-7 second high G left hadn sweeper.... FWIW.
Regards,
Crispy
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Old 03-03-07, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CrispyRX7
Thats's it. Basically an in-tank surge tank.
Is this fitted to an FD? Any idea of the tank volume?
Any more pics of the complete setup - fitment of the pressure pump, fuel level sensor, additional wiring, cover. etc.
Regards,
Crispy
It is off an FD, ex-production car racing over here. The volume to the top, guessing roughly 2 litres ~ 1/2 gallon in your money.

Haven't got any shots of the tank lid and associated stand pipe/pump and wiring, as it is all in the car, the tank itself is only out to make another copy.

The sender itself is nothing special, just the stock bracket bent to suit and secured with the standard M5(?) screw.
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Old 03-03-07, 11:17 AM
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Okay...I got the scans...not as clear as I thought for instructions. Anyone read Japanese?

http://www.encompass-tech.com/photog...affle%2001.jpg
http://www.encompass-tech.com/photog...affle%2002.jpg
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Old 03-03-07, 01:48 PM
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If I had to guess:

1/2) remove pump/level assembly
3) remove level sender
4) enlarge location holes to 5mm
5) attach sender to baffle box
6) attach bucket cover to bucket
7) connect baffle bucket cover
8) wire connector in place to connect sender to original wires
9) rock out!!!

Basically, their design takes the sender off the drop-in assembly and permanently attaches it to the baffle. The baffle is then attached to the bucket using the same tab system that the OEM bucket cover uses. Some kind of in-line connector is used to allow the sender to stay in the tank when you take the tank cover and pump out.

This effectively creates a column of fuel inside of the baffle, assuming that there are some kind of 1-way valves around the base that allow fuel inside the baffle.

-ch
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Old 03-03-07, 01:51 PM
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I actually kind of like the system above. I'm worried that it doesn't have check valves, but you could improve upon it by simply installing the valves yourself. I'm still worried that the bucket isn't attached strongly enough to the bottom of the tank to support a tall column of fuel under hard cornering or braking, but if these guys got it to work...

The revelation is just leaving the sender in the tank and having a connector that allows you to remove the fuel door. Once you do that, it gives you a lot of room. I'm interested to see some better pics of the baffle itself and understand how fuel gets in.

-ch
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Old 03-03-07, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by billyboy
If you're up for a bit of fabrication, this has been proven to work over here



Lift pump in this case is a standard FD unit - missing the filter sock atm. Boss on the right accomodates the sender unit (with modification)



Hose clamps secure the pump through this mount.



Basically require two of the rubber gaskets above and below the flange to seal the tank top. Will also require mods to reposition the pressure pump back on the lid into the deeper section of the well and of course two more electrical connections.
Billyboy, this system requires an external pump, right? There is a hose that goes down into that tank to pull fuel out, right?

Or does a second pump fit right down in there?!?

Very interesting. I'd make the exit hole at the top of the column a bit larger as I'd be worried about creating too much pressure in there. Those large seals aren't meant for high-pressure situations...

-ch
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Old 03-03-07, 05:41 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by hyperion
Billyboy, this system requires an external pump, right? There is a hose that goes down into that tank to pull fuel out, right?

Or does a second pump fit right down in there?!?

Very interesting. I'd make the exit hole at the top of the column a bit larger as I'd be worried about creating too much pressure in there. Those large seals aren't meant for high-pressure situations...

-ch
A second hi-pressure pump fits down inside "there."
Crispy
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Old 03-03-07, 10:11 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by billyboy
<SNIP> the tank itself is only out to make another copy.

<SNIP>
Perhaps your shop can fabricate more . . .

:-) neil
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Old 03-04-07, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hyperion
Billyboy, this system requires an external pump, right? There is a hose that goes down into that tank to pull fuel out, right?

Or does a second pump fit right down in there?!?

Very interesting. I'd make the exit hole at the top of the column a bit larger as I'd be worried about creating too much pressure in there. Those large seals aren't meant for high-pressure situations...

-ch
Crispy has it right, the pressure pump sits in the base of the surge tank, as I said, requires a bit of modification to the pick-up and bracket on the tank lid. Would be easier to illustrate with a picture - not likely to happen in the near term at least.

Excess pressure has never been a problem, but then again, minimum fuel is the typical requirement in the races here. You could enlarge the overflow simply enough if that was of concern.

Originally Posted by M104-AMG
Perhaps your shop can fabricate more . . .
Think it would be easy enough for a competent shop over there to make - the material costs would certainly be cheaper - the sizing is basically dictated by the tank lid for the flange and the width by the tank opening, if someone had a spare tank to deliver to a fabricator I could provide dimensions. Hopefully no issues with RHD and LHD tanks.
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Old 03-08-07, 11:12 AM
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I have been fallowing this thread since the start. I have been hesitant to post a reply because we are still testing this application for 350z. I have a FD fuel tank and pump assembly at my shop. As soon as we are sure that it accomplishes what it needs to do, I will adapt the design to the stock FD tank. This will solve all starvation problems. This will be sold along with my fuel system. Here is our website if you want to see what we are about. www.cj-motorsports.com

Here is a link to the product (prototype) on my350z.
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239484

Here is a good thread on surge tanks.
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248456

BTW Charles aka Phunk is my business partner.
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Old 03-08-07, 11:34 AM
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Wow! I just knew someone was out there doing this
Would you care to hazard an approximate price point?
Also what setups are you examining for fuel pump mounting - there are MANY different in-tank pumps for the FD out there - any thoughts on mounting options

TIA
Crispy
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Old 03-08-07, 11:35 AM
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oorx7, looking forward to it. I'm testing my tank cover on Monday, but I have to say that up to this point I was leaning towards the Feed solution or making something similar myself. Great to see what you come up with; please post back here as soon as you do!

-ch
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Old 03-08-07, 11:53 AM
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won't a stock 1995 tank solve the fuel slosh issue?

oorx7 - that looks hot!
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Old 03-08-07, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CrispyRX7
Wow! I just knew someone was out there doing this
Would you care to hazard an approximate price point?
Also what setups are you examining for fuel pump mounting - there are MANY different in-tank pumps for the FD out there - any thoughts on mounting options

TIA
Crispy
I can't really supply a price at the moment. Sorry, I just am not sure how many separate pieces I will have to make for the FD setup. I do all the fabrication in house. I have access to cad/cam software, CNC equipment, and welding equipment. So this alone will help keep the price down. I will post it in this thread once I do though.

As far as the pump mounting. We are going to be putting two walbro pumps inside the can, like the 350z. Our pumps are rather special and have there own syphon to pull fuel into the can. So there will be no need for a pump dedicated to filling the surge can. Mostlikly will have duel pump outputs and one return inlet like the 350z.

With the 350z assembly we needed to design a siphon that runs of the return fuel so that the fuel on the other side of the split tank can be used. This was a time consuming thing to design so that it pulled enough fuel but was still able to sustain even fuel pressure down to 40 psi. I am thinking of adapting this to have a pick up on the passenger side of the tank.
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Old 03-08-07, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hyperion
oorx7, looking forward to it. I'm testing my tank cover on Monday, but I have to say that up to this point I was leaning towards the Feed solution or making something similar myself. Great to see what you come up with; please post back here as soon as you do!

-ch
I am interested in how this works. This will be the most cost efective way to pruduce a product that fixes the problem, if it works. I really don't see why it wouldn't.
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Old 03-08-07, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 2MCHPWR
won't a stock 1995 tank solve the fuel slosh issue?

oorx7 - that looks hot!
Most likly, but I have yet to see one personally. (95 tank)

And thanks
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Old 03-08-07, 12:18 PM
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I will be waiting as well.
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Old 03-08-07, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 2MCHPWR
won't a stock 1995 tank solve the fuel slosh issue?

oorx7 - that looks hot!
Does anyone have proof positive that the 95 tank solves fuel slosh issues on a HARD driven track car, i.e., experienced driver on slick tires with in excess of stock hp?

TIA,
Crispy
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Old 03-08-07, 12:24 PM
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Unfortunatly, For a hard driven track car, a surge can of some sort is your best bet. I really wouldn't trust a stock desighned baffle system if your driving at 10/10ths of the cars ability. Especially with sticky wide tires.
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Old 03-08-07, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CrispyRX7
Does anyone have proof positive that the 95 tank solves fuel slosh issues
The 95 tank doesn't solve those problems.
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