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Damn the torpedoes!

Old 01-11-07, 03:00 AM
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Damn the torpedoes!

I'm running in ASP! I've been searching through some old posts on here about autox and came across that one talking about aftermarket radiators. I refuse to run in another class simply because I have an aftermarket radiator. Somebody's going to have to lodge a complaint if they want me to run in another class! Do you guys think I should run in ASP or move up to a higher class? This will be at the regional level, not divisional.
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Old 01-11-07, 07:39 AM
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Generally, there aren't many protests in a regional event for that level of infraction. I would imagine that you are looking at putting in a thicker, heavier radiator in for better cooling during events that are not autocross? I believe the rule is made to prevent you from running a tiny Civic radiator as a weight savings. Still, a rule is a rule; you simply need to know your competition, and whether they are protest-happy.
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Old 01-11-07, 09:27 AM
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I ran a celica that had a full veilside kit with flares in a stock category. Nobody protested, so I'm sure it'll be fine. I just think it's stupid that such a rule exists.
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Old 01-11-07, 08:19 PM
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At a national competition level, such rules start making sense. When people are throwing cubic $$ at a car just to get the last little fractional second out of it, it's amazing how "creative" they can get with replacement rules.

-b
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Old 01-11-07, 08:35 PM
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I did wonder if anyone ever replaced a radiator (in SM) with just a solid piece of metal (like a pipe) and manually cooled the motor between runs.

That would save you ALLOT of weight if you could get away with calling a pipe a radiator. Of course, I'd never do it for a FI car.

Back on subject...

I refuse to run the stock radiator in ASP. I want to be somewhat competitive at Divs and Nationally, so I'm reading the rules repeatedly.
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Old 01-11-07, 09:15 PM
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I am not familiar with the FD's. However, if engine temps are a concern, you could also look at an oil cooler. I believe you are allowed to install an aftermarket oil cooler in SP.
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Old 01-11-07, 09:30 PM
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The Koyo is fine now. It's actually a little tough to keep the temps above 80C in the winter. It's a nice problem to have.
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Old 01-11-07, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NeoTuri
I did wonder if anyone ever replaced a radiator (in SM) with just a solid piece of metal (like a pipe) and manually cooled the motor between runs.

That would save you ALLOT of weight if you could get away with calling a pipe a radiator. Of course, I'd never do it for a FI car.

Back on subject...

I refuse to run the stock radiator in ASP. I want to be somewhat competitive at Divs and Nationally, so I'm reading the rules repeatedly.
The worst that can happen is you will get protested and have your times thrown out. Any radiator other than stock in ASP is not allowed. In our region you would not have a problem as most of our ASP guys are cool, at the div or national level you can count on being protested if you are winning. One of the most weenie protests I have seen was a guy in a 3rd gen protested a Corvette in SM2 for the radio cover plate missing. Funny thing is the Corvette driver jumped in my ASP RX7, bettered his time and came out about 4 seconds ahead of the guy who protested him.

A large radiator really is a performance enhancement for the RX7; colder engines make more power, when wins often come down to thousandths, every bit counts.
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Old 01-12-07, 09:09 AM
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At the speeds Solo runs at, I seriously doubt that having a larger radiator would help more than it would hinder. I thought there was a few people who were petitioning to get the rules changed?
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Old 01-12-07, 04:17 PM
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Radiator in ASP

Originally Posted by XxMerlinxX
I'm running in ASP! I've been searching through some old posts on here about autox and came across that one talking about aftermarket radiators. I refuse to run in another class simply because I have an aftermarket radiator. Somebody's going to have to lodge a complaint if they want me to run in another class! Do you guys think I should run in ASP or move up to a higher class? This will be at the regional level, not divisional.
I asked this same question at the annual tech last year. They could not come up with a reason to not allow my Koyo radiator in ASP.

The same seems to apply to SM2, but I doubt many SM2 cars are running a stock radiator. My car is in SM2 with a Koyo radiator.

Any SM2 drivers have experience with aftermarket radiators and interpretation of SCCA Solo rules?
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Old 01-12-07, 06:22 PM
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Start to worry when you win a few events. Nobody will care if you are mid pack but their attitudes change when they can't beat you on the course.
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Old 01-12-07, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jkstill
I asked this same question at the annual tech last year. They could not come up with a reason to not allow my Koyo radiator in ASP.

The same seems to apply to SM2, but I doubt many SM2 cars are running a stock radiator. My car is in SM2 with a Koyo radiator.

Any SM2 drivers have experience with aftermarket radiators and interpretation of SCCA Solo rules?
Radiators are unrestricted in SM2.
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Old 01-12-07, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Chadwick
The worst that can happen is you will get protested and have your times thrown out. Any radiator other than stock in ASP is not allowed. In our region you would not have a problem as most of our ASP guys are cool, at the div or national level you can count on being protested if you are winning. One of the most weenie protests I have seen was a guy in a 3rd gen protested a Corvette in SM2 for the radio cover plate missing. Funny thing is the Corvette driver jumped in my ASP RX7, bettered his time and came out about 4 seconds ahead of the guy who protested him.

A large radiator really is a performance enhancement for the RX7; colder engines make more power, when wins often come down to thousandths, every bit counts.
With any luck this year, I'm going to be in a competitive position in my region and division.

I have allot of time to make up if I want a ASP/SM2 trophy at nationals, but I'm not so delusional to think I have a chance vs the top dogs.

I asked about the radiator removal in SM, because the drivetrain is unlimited.

Btw, how are you running a BSP pax at your region ?
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Old 01-12-07, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NeoTuri
With any luck this year, I'm going to be in a competitive position in my region and division.

I have allot of time to make up if I want a ASP/SM2 trophy at nationals, but I'm not so delusional to think I have a chance vs the top dogs.

I asked about the radiator removal in SM, because the drivetrain is unlimited.

Btw, how are you running a BSP pax at your region ?
I also run a 96 Corvette .


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Old 01-12-07, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by XxMerlinxX
At the speeds Solo runs at, I seriously doubt that having a larger radiator would help more than it would hinder. I thought there was a few people who were petitioning to get the rules changed?
Solo speeds has nothing to do with it, temp does. If you ever see someone running a Rx7 at a national autocross, watch what they do between runs.... Ice bags, water sprayers, motor running with fans on high, fan on the intercooler etc... The reason they do this is to get the maximum heat out of the engine bay before their next run. The extra 7lbs of water means nothing as they will burn that much gas in one run. Having the engine 10c cooler and the air temp 30c cooler= more power.
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Old 01-12-07, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jkstill
I asked this same question at the annual tech last year. They could not come up with a reason to not allow my Koyo radiator in ASP.

The same seems to apply to SM2, but I doubt many SM2 cars are running a stock radiator. My car is in SM2 with a Koyo radiator.

Any SM2 drivers have experience with aftermarket radiators and interpretation of SCCA Solo rules?
I can think of a reason.... the rules . As said above, cooling system is considered free in SM/SM2

I personally feel that they should rewrite the rule to something like the rule for fuel cells. Replacement has to have a capacity equal to or greater than the stock size and be located in the stock location. I have written a letter to the SEB requesting this change for Street Prepared.
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Old 01-12-07, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Chadwick
Solo speeds has nothing to do with it, temp does. If you ever see someone running a Rx7 at a national autocross, watch what they do between runs.... Ice bags, water sprayers, motor running with fans on high, fan on the intercooler etc... The reason they do this is to get the maximum heat out of the engine bay before their next run. The extra 7lbs of water means nothing as they will burn that much gas in one run. Having the engine 10c cooler and the air temp 30c cooler= more power.
+1

Conversely, I would suggest that you also lose power in subsequent runs with a smaller, less-efficient radiator; especially so with a co-driver.
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Old 01-13-07, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Chadwick
Solo speeds has nothing to do with it, temp does. If you ever see someone running a Rx7 at a national autocross, watch what they do between runs.... Ice bags, water sprayers, motor running with fans on high, fan on the intercooler etc... The reason they do this is to get the maximum heat out of the engine bay before their next run. The extra 7lbs of water means nothing as they will burn that much gas in one run. Having the engine 10c cooler and the air temp 30c cooler= more power.
I just do it because I don't want to blow up my engine.


I have run my FD in SS, SM2, and ASP and trackdays for years with the stock radiator without a single cooling issue. I run with the heater on high, radiator fans on high, and pop the hood between runs. I took out my A/C condensor and filled in any spaces in the air box in front of the radiator. I also have a larger SMIC which I feel is better for Auto X and is a legal mod for ASP.

Last edited by finky; 01-13-07 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 01-13-07, 08:51 AM
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Having an R1 with dual oil coolers helps too.
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Old 01-13-07, 05:11 PM
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SM2 Radiators

Originally Posted by Chadwick
I can think of a reason.... the rules . As said above, cooling system is considered free in SM/SM2

I personally feel that they should rewrite the rule to something like the rule for fuel cells. Replacement has to have a capacity equal to or greater than the stock size and be located in the stock location. I have written a letter to the SEB requesting this change for Street Prepared.
I think that if you look at the 2006 Solo rules, you will see there is no mention of what type of radiator is allowed until you get the Prepared class. The only mention of radiators prior to that has to do lines and ducting.

If you can show me something in the rules about radiators in ASP/SM/SM2, I would like to know where it is, as I either can't find it (searching in the PDF version of the rules) or I am not interpreting it correctly.
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Old 01-13-07, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jkstill
I think that if you look at the 2006 Solo rules, you will see there is no mention of what type of radiator is allowed until you get the Prepared class. The only mention of radiators prior to that has to do lines and ducting.

If you can show me something in the rules about radiators in ASP/SM/SM2, I would like to know where it is, as I either can't find it (searching in the PDF version of the rules) or I am not interpreting it correctly.
All SCCA rules are written in such a way that if it doesn't say you can, you can't. With that in mind, the SM/SM2 rules state that "Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel system, etc) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:...."

They consider the cooling system to be a related component of the drive train, thus it is unrestricted in SM/SM2.
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Old 01-14-07, 03:27 AM
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SM2 and radiators

Originally Posted by Chadwick
All SCCA rules are written in such a way that if it doesn't say you can, you can't. With that in mind, the SM/SM2 rules state that "Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel system, etc) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:...."

They consider the cooling system to be a related component of the drive train, thus it is unrestricted in SM/SM2.
Thanks. It would be a little more clear perhaps if they specifically mentioned cooling systems as they do in other parts of the rulebook.

All part of interpreting the rules I guess.
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