Cutting a bad line on rights....any advice?
Thread Starter
QC Motorsports
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 759
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From: Austin, tx
Cutting a bad line on rights....any advice?
I have been watching myself carefully when I'm trying to run good lines and I have noticed that on left turns and such, I have great lines, but when I go right, I seem to be letting the car slide out to the outside and off the line. Everytime I try to correct this I seem to be coming up empty handed. Are there any tricks that I can use to keep my line in the rights? I was thinking of trying to slightly dive the turn, so that I would start on a bad line to the inside but since I'm drifting to the outside I'll be coming out of the turn on a good line, but wont that slow me down as for times sake? This is bugging me. I guess I need to go to more classes on the track. But your advice is welcome.
thanks,
Charles
thanks,
Charles
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,252
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From: Sunnyvale, CA
Might be something to do that we sit on the left side of the car. You can see where the left side of car on left turns thru the window and you know where the car is. But on right turns, you have to guess the depth.
Perhaps me not driving the car everyday is a problem too.
I notice myself not knowing the depth of right turns. e.g. more cones hit on right turns vs left turns.
Doing skidpad left and right is also different, I cannot keep steady right turn skidpad vs left.
Perhaps me not driving the car everyday is a problem too.
I notice myself not knowing the depth of right turns. e.g. more cones hit on right turns vs left turns.
Doing skidpad left and right is also different, I cannot keep steady right turn skidpad vs left.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,038
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From: Sterling, VA
Don't focus on compensating for the drift. Instead, try to eliminate it. Ultimately, you're scrubbing speed by drifting anyways.
From your description, it sounds like you're getting offline pretty early in the turn, which makes me think that you're carrying too much speed into the turn.
Try taking a couple different instructors out with you, giving them a detailed explanation of your problem ahead of time, and see what they say.
From your description, it sounds like you're getting offline pretty early in the turn, which makes me think that you're carrying too much speed into the turn.
Try taking a couple different instructors out with you, giving them a detailed explanation of your problem ahead of time, and see what they say.
Last edited by DigDug; Jan 13, 2004 at 08:28 PM.
Thread Starter
QC Motorsports
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 759
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From: Austin, tx
Sorry, by drifting I didn't really mean like a drift, but like floating off my line. I think your right about the speed thing, and its prolly the perseption from my side of the car going into the corner.
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,664
Likes: 22
From: n
This is a long shot, but...
Have you ever got the car corner weighted?
Really extreme corner weight differences can induce weird handling traits turning one way but not in the opposite way...
-Ted
Have you ever got the car corner weighted?
Really extreme corner weight differences can induce weird handling traits turning one way but not in the opposite way...
-Ted
Has been.. hangin' around
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,618
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From: Milpitas, CA
It may just be a perception issue. When I first started, I couldnt' tell where my right tires were on the track, so I'd miss the apex all the time. Slow the car down and focus on getting the car to the line. Don't worry about speed right now, just focus on touching that apex marker every time. If you can consistently do that for an event, then start bumping the speed up. Being quick will come, but first focus on where your car is at on the track.
PaulC
PaulC
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
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From: Ottawa, Ont
when you drive on the street, if there are cans or whatever and u can safely run em over, see if you can catch it w/ your right side tires (manhole covers are awesome for this lil activity)
i dunno how you see it, but most cars i've tried the right tire is usually @ the midpoint of the windshield if u'r looking at it from the driver's seat perspective.
i dunno how you see it, but most cars i've tried the right tire is usually @ the midpoint of the windshield if u'r looking at it from the driver's seat perspective.
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Lives on the Forum
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Dallas
Don't drive by LOOKING for the wheels, think of them as being in space around your seat. Aim the car for where you wish the wheels to go. Sitting in the car you should have a picture in your mind of where the four wheels are; only place you should be looking is way out in front of you with the occasional glance at the gauges.
LS6 Convert
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,827
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From: Austin, TX
This is a old email I got from Andy Hollis ... which I've posted on here before, but I don't feel like searching for it. It applies to auto-x, but the concepts are still the same on a road course.
Sounds like you're braking too late and possibly taking too tight of an arc around your right turns. Turn earlier and less. And like Damon said, don't focus on watching where you wheels are. Focus on your relative position to the apex of your turn. Hope this helps.
ANDY'S TOP TEN AUTOX DRIVING TIPS
1) Position first, then speed. Positioning the car perfectly is more important than trying to attain the highest potential speed. For example, you will drop more time by correctly positioning the car nearer to slalom cones than you will by adding 1 or 2 MPH in speed. Same with sweepers (tight line). Same with 90-degree turns (use all of the track). Also, position is a prerequisite for speed. If you are not in the correct place, you will not be able go faster. Or at least not for very long!
2) Turn earlier...and less. To go faster, the arc you are running must be bigger. A bigger arc requires less steering. To make a bigger arc that is centered in the same place, the arc must start sooner (turn earlier).
3) Brake earlier...and less. Waiting until the last possible second approaching a turn and then dropping anchor at precisely the correct place so that the desired entry speed is reached exactly as you come to the turn-in point is quite difficult to execute consistently. Especially when you consider that you get no practice runs on the course, and the surface changes on every run, and you aren't likely to be in exactly the same position with the same approach speed on every run, etc. Better to start braking a little earlier to give some margin of error. And by braking less you can either add or subtract braking effort as you close in on the turn-in point. This will make you consistent and smooth.
4) Lift early instead of braking later. Continuing with the philosophy of #3, when you need to reduce speed only a moderate amount, try an early lift of the throttle instead of a later push of the brake. This is less upsetting to the car, is easier to do and thus more consistent, and allows for more precise placement entering the maneuver (remember #1 above).
5) Easier to add speed in a turn than to get rid of it. If you are under the limit, a slight push of the right foot will get you more speed with no additional side effects. On the other hand, if you are too fast and the tires have begun slipping, you can only reduce throttle and wait until the tires turn enough of that excess energy into smoke and heat. Don't use your tires as brakes!
6) Use your right foot to modulate car position in constant radius turns, not the steering wheel. In a steady state turn, once you have established the correct steering input to maintain that arc, lifting the throttle slightly will let the car tuck in closer to the inside cones. Conversely, slightly increasing the throttle will push the car out a bit farther to avoid inside cones. It is much easier to make small corrections in
position with slight variations in the tires' slip angle (that's what you are doing with the throttle) than with the steering wheel.
7) Unwind the wheel, then add power. If the car is using all of the tire's tractive capacity to corner, there is none left for additional acceleration. At corner exit, as you unwind the wheel, you make some available. If you do not unwind the wheel, the tire will start to slide and the car will push out (see #6 above).
8) Attack the back. For slaloms (also applicable to most offsets), getting close to the cones is critical for quick times (see #1). To get close, we must move the car less, which means bigger arcs. Bigger arcs come from less steering and require earlier turning (see #2). Now for the fun part... When you go by a slalom cone and start turning the steering wheel back the other way, when does the car start to actually change direction? Answer: When the wheel crosses the center point (Not when you first start turning back!) How long does that take? If you are smooth, it takes .25 - .5 seconds. Now, how long is a typical person's reaction time? Answer: about .5 seconds. Finally, how long does it take to go between slalom cones? Answer: Typically on the order of 1 second. Given all of that, your brain must make the decision to begin turning the steering wheel back the other way just *before* you go by the previous cone!!
Since this is a mental issue, a good visualization technique to get used
to this is to think about trying to run over the back side of each slalom cone with the inside rear tire of the car. To hit it with the rear tire (and not the front), the car must be arcing well before the cone and the arc must be shallow. Attack the back!
9) Hands follow the eyes, car follows the hands. 'Nuf said.
10) Scan ahead, don't stare. Keep the eyes moving. Looking ahead does not mean staring ahead. Your eyes must be constantly moving forward and back, and sometimes left and right. Glance forward, glance back. Your brain can only operate on the information you give it.
1) Position first, then speed. Positioning the car perfectly is more important than trying to attain the highest potential speed. For example, you will drop more time by correctly positioning the car nearer to slalom cones than you will by adding 1 or 2 MPH in speed. Same with sweepers (tight line). Same with 90-degree turns (use all of the track). Also, position is a prerequisite for speed. If you are not in the correct place, you will not be able go faster. Or at least not for very long!
2) Turn earlier...and less. To go faster, the arc you are running must be bigger. A bigger arc requires less steering. To make a bigger arc that is centered in the same place, the arc must start sooner (turn earlier).
3) Brake earlier...and less. Waiting until the last possible second approaching a turn and then dropping anchor at precisely the correct place so that the desired entry speed is reached exactly as you come to the turn-in point is quite difficult to execute consistently. Especially when you consider that you get no practice runs on the course, and the surface changes on every run, and you aren't likely to be in exactly the same position with the same approach speed on every run, etc. Better to start braking a little earlier to give some margin of error. And by braking less you can either add or subtract braking effort as you close in on the turn-in point. This will make you consistent and smooth.
4) Lift early instead of braking later. Continuing with the philosophy of #3, when you need to reduce speed only a moderate amount, try an early lift of the throttle instead of a later push of the brake. This is less upsetting to the car, is easier to do and thus more consistent, and allows for more precise placement entering the maneuver (remember #1 above).
5) Easier to add speed in a turn than to get rid of it. If you are under the limit, a slight push of the right foot will get you more speed with no additional side effects. On the other hand, if you are too fast and the tires have begun slipping, you can only reduce throttle and wait until the tires turn enough of that excess energy into smoke and heat. Don't use your tires as brakes!
6) Use your right foot to modulate car position in constant radius turns, not the steering wheel. In a steady state turn, once you have established the correct steering input to maintain that arc, lifting the throttle slightly will let the car tuck in closer to the inside cones. Conversely, slightly increasing the throttle will push the car out a bit farther to avoid inside cones. It is much easier to make small corrections in
position with slight variations in the tires' slip angle (that's what you are doing with the throttle) than with the steering wheel.
7) Unwind the wheel, then add power. If the car is using all of the tire's tractive capacity to corner, there is none left for additional acceleration. At corner exit, as you unwind the wheel, you make some available. If you do not unwind the wheel, the tire will start to slide and the car will push out (see #6 above).
8) Attack the back. For slaloms (also applicable to most offsets), getting close to the cones is critical for quick times (see #1). To get close, we must move the car less, which means bigger arcs. Bigger arcs come from less steering and require earlier turning (see #2). Now for the fun part... When you go by a slalom cone and start turning the steering wheel back the other way, when does the car start to actually change direction? Answer: When the wheel crosses the center point (Not when you first start turning back!) How long does that take? If you are smooth, it takes .25 - .5 seconds. Now, how long is a typical person's reaction time? Answer: about .5 seconds. Finally, how long does it take to go between slalom cones? Answer: Typically on the order of 1 second. Given all of that, your brain must make the decision to begin turning the steering wheel back the other way just *before* you go by the previous cone!!
Since this is a mental issue, a good visualization technique to get used
to this is to think about trying to run over the back side of each slalom cone with the inside rear tire of the car. To hit it with the rear tire (and not the front), the car must be arcing well before the cone and the arc must be shallow. Attack the back!
9) Hands follow the eyes, car follows the hands. 'Nuf said.
10) Scan ahead, don't stare. Keep the eyes moving. Looking ahead does not mean staring ahead. Your eyes must be constantly moving forward and back, and sometimes left and right. Glance forward, glance back. Your brain can only operate on the information you give it.
Sounds like you're braking too late and possibly taking too tight of an arc around your right turns. Turn earlier and less. And like Damon said, don't focus on watching where you wheels are. Focus on your relative position to the apex of your turn. Hope this helps.
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