Nihilanthic

Ok so fords lima (in 2.3 and 2.5 stroke) was used in the B-Series. Briliant! That also means for stealthyness I can put a mazda valvecover on it.

But, as Im sure you could guess, Id be using the turbo version of it from a Merkur XR4Ti or a SVO or a Turbo Coupe in a RX7 because its utterly cheap, all the 80s shortblocks NA and Turbo have the same block, crank, and forged rods (only pistons and heads are different) and all the aftermarket parts for it are both UTTERLY cheap as hell and race oriented. That and I got a friend for hookups.

Anyway, what I was wondering is what sort of autocross or other SCCA racing classes could I possibly enter a 2.3T RX-7 in? I know that one of the clases (Street touring X) allows up to 5 liters NA and 2 liters turbo (destroking a 2.3 with a stock 2liter crank is EZ, but Id rather keep the displacement if I can) and Street Touring U allows unlimited NA displacement and 3.1 liters Turbo...

But then I found out in Street Mod or Production (I forget which) allows engine swaps within the same manufacturer, and if mazda has used a ford motor in another car, its technically a Mazda motor, right? So would I be able to get in one of those classes if I used a turbo version of it?

Im not planning on using a 2.3 NA, so basically what Im asking is if someone knows the legalese well enough to say what class I should shoot for with a 2.3T in an RX7, because I really cant make heads nor tails of it yet.

finky

iTrader: (2)

X prepared or E Modified

Nihilanthic

Thanks!

What other sort of mods would be allowed in X Prepared? E-Mod is the kind of stuff with full-on race cars like chopped miatas and midgets, right?

V8Mongrel

If you are using a 2.3 from a Mazda truck, I think that you can run in Street Mod. Engine swaps within manufacturer are allowed, although there might be exceptions for badge engineering vehicles that I don't know about.

Imp

If it were legal in SM, it would really be SM2.

--kC

Nihilanthic

A 2.3 lima is a 2.3 lima... plus it said the rotating assembly is 'open'. Not sure about cyl heads, though the later dual plug heads actually flow the best, and those are the years in which mazda used 2.3s and 2.5s. Which = HOLSET TIME Plus considering cams are open... I could certainly make some serious power even through crappy heads with 30psi+ holset turbo pressure. Too bad they'd probably say no to an esslinger NASH head though it is technically a "stock replacement".

Hopefully they'd let me use a 80s distributer block, not becuase I like dizzies but because its a stronger block. Theres no reason they wouldnt, right? Hell, if they did, I doubt Id break it at the power levels I'd make anyway.

Also, could I run a Megasquirt? Or would I have to do the whole higher flow MAF +reflash routine?

And uh... what rules regarding rim size, tires, etc are there for SM2 you could tell me?

finky

iTrader: (2)

I am not sure of all the logistics of the Mazda/Ford link on the engines. They do not allow 5.0 Miatas in SM2 so I am not sure how your creation would work. I would ask Doug Gill of the SCCA (you can propably find a link to his name on the SCCA website). If you can squeeze into SM2 with a Mazda block you can run any sized rim with any sized DOT rated slick (Kumho 710s and Hoosier A3S05,A6). Any way you wanted to control the engine is free game under SM2 ruleset. All of the rules are on the SCCA.com website.

http://scca.com/Solo/Index.asp?IdS=023DF1-FFF76A0&x=050|070&~=

If you don't fit in SM2 then XP and EM are almost "run what you brung" racecar classes.

Nihilanthic

Well, considering the example and prescident set by allowing duratecs in Mazdas because they were used in Mazda cars, I figured it would apply equally to an arguably inferior motor :P The reason 5.0 miatas arent allowed is they never used a 5.0 in a Mazda car stock, but in the case of the B2300 it was most definitely in a mazda pickup!

AMRX7

For SM rules, your car is an Rx7 which uses a Mazda motor. No Ford motor was used in a RX7, so you can't use one. You can use any Mazda badged motor.

-Andy

Nihilanthic

So the 2.3 from a B2300? Thats exactly the same as the 2.3 from the pinto, ranger, SVO, TC, etc.... just a diff badge on the valvecover. And, well, the later year dual plug heads actually flow the best among the stock unported heads on 2.3s.

Can I use a block from the 80s (thats still a 2.3) because its a stronger casting? What are the rules on up/back dating? Ideally Id like to get a 2.3T from the 80s, but I could just get a 2.3 from a 2300 if they were insistant (or just a damn valve cover from one ) and since the internals are 'open' as long as theyre metal, Id just swap in turbo rods and pistons.

There any limitations on head porting? Could I use Esslingers aluminum "stock replacement" head (that flows better?) I know cam swaps are ok at they very least, plus Holsets can support high enough pressure to force air through crappy ports, but I am definitely going to leave some of the judges scratching their heads with this swap.

Nihilanthic

Update. I just found out the mounts interchange, its plenty strong, and the 2.5 crank is a direct boltin! Woo hoo.

A guy with a Holset H1C, and um a header w/ a flange for that turbo (and a MAF and a reflash so the computer knows the proper voltage/mass curve and injector size...) is making 275 whp with 18 psi through stock heads and cam, and is now at 25 making about 350 whp.

So, Im stoked. SM2 here I come, motherf***ers

EDIT: The guy who turbo'd such a motor has a page at http://www.rangersrevenge.com/ and he mentions a mazda built 5 speed.

Would this be just a mazda T-5 or a better tranny than that?

Black91n/a

In the SCCA Solo rulebook, section 16.1.D.1 (SM) it says:

"Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured as production units for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany."

To me that doesn't seem to allow a swap like the one you're proposing. Notice it says model, not make. That means that the engine put into the chassis had to be originally available in that chassis at some point.

Don't expect to be allowed into SM2 without a fight. If they even let you register in that class others will be likely to protest you with good grounds and you could be disqualified and be forced to re-class the car in a Prepared or Modified class. I'd contact the SCCA first to get a clarification as to whether or not the swap is legal, that way you'll know for sure.

Nihilanthic

Oh? Hmm.

Im not building this with getting into SCCA in mind, its more of a proof-of-point (heh) plus its a cheap swap for a powerful, reliable street car that I can take to dragstrips and HPDEs.

I just figured if I only would have to get a 2.3 from a Mazda and get into SM2 instead of bumped to some race class where I'd be the only one there that day (and most likely NOT regionally/nationally competetive), I might as well. But, it seems I'd be more likely to end up where most of the v8 swappers are - the fastest (or among the fastest) that day, but because theyre in XP or E-Mod theyd be alone in that class, and certainly not regionally or nationally competetive given the nature of those classes.

I guess If I wanna get serious in auto-x or SCCA track racing Im gonna get a spec-7 or spec miata down the line... WAY down the line.

Anyway, thanks for letting me know so Im not set up for disappointment after Ive built it and had my heart set on it.

EDIT: Ok, I've just googled to triple-check and seen a ton of threads pop up where people said that its the same manufacturer, but it was just worded poorly, as well as anecdotes such as " a 6 liter veyron engine in a sirrocco is still SM2 legal".

So, Im just gonna email the SCCA and see what they say. Still, thanks for letting me know about the rules, if I am mistaken

V8Mongrel

Chris, you and I have to talk. I went down this road myself cough-cough years ago and I think I can probably add something.

If you want to build the car for the sake of the car, then have at it. Really, do whatever you feel like. However, if you want the car to be a good way to get into driving events such as HPDEs, then I can tell you that a turbo is not the best way to go. There are many reasons, but none of them matter if that isn't your goal.

Imp

Maybe this can clear up the confusion... you're reading the wrogn key words.

They're talking about the manufacturer of the engine... not the engine itself.

Worded differently to clear things up.... Engine block must be produced by the same company (or parent company) that made the engine that came with the car it is being installed in.

If it had to be an enigne that was avilable in that model, there's no reason to swap engines.

It doesn't mean you have to use the same type ENGINE. It's just gotta be from the same company.

A B2300 engine in any Mazda would be legal as much as a Cobra engine in a Focus is legal.

That help clear the mud?

--kC

Nihilanthic

Thanks Imp! Now I get to have mazda guys tell me "OMG ITS A TRUCK MOTOR"

BTW, is backdating legal? As in, could I get a 2.3 from the years before they were badged as a mazda (so I could get one that already has the forged low comp internals, larger journals, and be lazy) or would I have to just deal with the 90s on up 2.3s

Also, If I got one from a ranger and put a mazda valve cover on it nobody would mind, right?

finky

iTrader: (2)

All that you need is the block that is out of a Mazda. You can reinforce and add any parts of any material that you want.

If I ever got around to it one of the projects I would like to try is a Miata with a 4.0L out of a Mazda truck. Then supercharge it for SM2.

DamonB

No. As long as the engine is built by the same company that built the car then it's legal for SM2. A 3 rotor RX-7 is perfectly legal in SM2 for instance even though that motor was never available in the RX-7. The Veyron/Scirocco example is true as well.

Hyundai builds large ship engines. I wonder if you can fit one in a Tiburon?

Nihilanthic

You'd prolly need to do the C4/Cobra irs center section swap for longer gears, but that would be a real monster.

Well, that and some giant tires... still,

Black91n/a

Ok well I guess I was wrong, but it specifically forbids swaps from companies related at a corporate level only, so a Veyron engine in a Scirocco wouldn't be legal would it? Unless you say that it was a VW collaboration, which is a bit of a stretch I'd say. Doesn't it also have to be a mass produced auto engine for the US? So a ship motor doesn't count. I thought that anything other than a US car engine must be classed in a Mod class.

NeoTuri

iTrader: (2)

Actually, JDM motors are legal in SM2 provided it is included in its entirely and from the same make.

-Edit-

Too bad JDM parts are not allowed in Street Prepared.