Car died at VIR on monday. Time to start the LSx project
03-22-10, 03:38 PM
#78
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There are a few no-brainer solutions out there now that will make your life much easier for completing the swap. IE Samberg's intake/radiator combo for the FD.
-Joel
PS see my swap thread for a master list of parts. It was written for an FC but should be fairly easy to adapt to your application.
03-24-10, 01:07 PM
#80
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Good luck. Look forward to seeing you on v8rx7forum.com...
There are a few no-brainer solutions out there now that will make your life much easier for completing the swap. IE Samberg's intake/radiator combo for the FD.
-Joel
PS see my swap thread for a master list of parts. It was written for an FC but should be fairly easy to adapt to your application.
There are a few no-brainer solutions out there now that will make your life much easier for completing the swap. IE Samberg's intake/radiator combo for the FD.
-Joel
PS see my swap thread for a master list of parts. It was written for an FC but should be fairly easy to adapt to your application.
03-31-10, 06:22 PM
#86
OK serious feedback now...
-A test drive is a good idea, just so you know what you're in for. That said, there's simply no comparable in terms of engine performance. For a rotary to make the same power requires either a single turbo or a 20B. In the former case the torque curve of an NA v8 is much easier to drive. In the latter, maintenance gets expensive quickly and the rest of the powertrain starts to suffer particularly transmissions (the one thing torque isn't good for).
-I agree that the t56 trans is a brute, it's one of the few downsides but it's easily managed and offers few surprises. That said, the FD isn't exactly s2000 trans caliber in the feel department either.
-There are really only two weaknesses to the lsx motors. Oil has been mentioned but the clutch throw out bearing is another. In the former, you can do a dry sump and never look back, otherwise an accusump will be required. I blew a motor prior to going accusump myself. It's happened to friends too. Yet, not one single person on the v8rx7 board has had an oil issue who was running one. As to the second issue, it's really mostly an annoyance (see vid at end of post for explanation). The best solution IMHO is to run a non-organic clutch. Sintered iron and/or kevlar simply don't give off the same kinds of dust.
-Once you've completed the swap LSX maintenance is cheap compared to the rotary. No 110 octane fuel requirements. Fuel goes further too. Plentiful spare parts. It's just easy to live with.
-5 years is a long time for a rotary to live on track. I would tend to argue that this is outside the norm and you did very well. Quality rotary rebuilds are sometimes hard to come by and the cause of failures can be elusive. The rotary itself may have few moving parts but critical failure modes are high. Tuning is critical, turbo maint is critical, heat management is critical, proper fuel is critical, proper vacuum is critical etc. One little thing goes a bit wrong and you're hosed.
-Call and talk to Charlie Shatzen at Mazcare in Marietta, GA (770) 859-9643. He's supports both rotary and v8 swapped track cars and is intimately familiar with the pros and cons. Plus he's a good guy to talk to and shoots straight. If you do give him a ring tell him Joel Payne says hello. Hell, one of his customers might give you a ride. Their latest race car build is here.
Honestly there are only three valid reasons I've ever heard to stay rotary.
1) You're sponsored and Mazda won't let you.
2) You're a purist and don't care/refuse to believe the evidence. (Hell, some people want to drag race Yugo's just because they feel like it. Does it make it the smart/rational choice? Maybe not, but that doesn't make the reason any less valid.)
3) You're an all out racer and minute differences in polar moment of interia matter to you.
In everything else the v8 is superior. Trans I'd call a wash. I know too many folks who've blown up FD transmissions to say the the minor upside in feel is worthwhile.
-Joel
PS I make 462 rwhp and 413 rwtq using a stock shortblock ls1. Ls2/3/7 motors should all net you 500+ with a bit of breathing work.
PPS clutch issue video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUv
-A test drive is a good idea, just so you know what you're in for. That said, there's simply no comparable in terms of engine performance. For a rotary to make the same power requires either a single turbo or a 20B. In the former case the torque curve of an NA v8 is much easier to drive. In the latter, maintenance gets expensive quickly and the rest of the powertrain starts to suffer particularly transmissions (the one thing torque isn't good for).
-I agree that the t56 trans is a brute, it's one of the few downsides but it's easily managed and offers few surprises. That said, the FD isn't exactly s2000 trans caliber in the feel department either.
-There are really only two weaknesses to the lsx motors. Oil has been mentioned but the clutch throw out bearing is another. In the former, you can do a dry sump and never look back, otherwise an accusump will be required. I blew a motor prior to going accusump myself. It's happened to friends too. Yet, not one single person on the v8rx7 board has had an oil issue who was running one. As to the second issue, it's really mostly an annoyance (see vid at end of post for explanation). The best solution IMHO is to run a non-organic clutch. Sintered iron and/or kevlar simply don't give off the same kinds of dust.
-Once you've completed the swap LSX maintenance is cheap compared to the rotary. No 110 octane fuel requirements. Fuel goes further too. Plentiful spare parts. It's just easy to live with.
-5 years is a long time for a rotary to live on track. I would tend to argue that this is outside the norm and you did very well. Quality rotary rebuilds are sometimes hard to come by and the cause of failures can be elusive. The rotary itself may have few moving parts but critical failure modes are high. Tuning is critical, turbo maint is critical, heat management is critical, proper fuel is critical, proper vacuum is critical etc. One little thing goes a bit wrong and you're hosed.
-Call and talk to Charlie Shatzen at Mazcare in Marietta, GA (770) 859-9643. He's supports both rotary and v8 swapped track cars and is intimately familiar with the pros and cons. Plus he's a good guy to talk to and shoots straight. If you do give him a ring tell him Joel Payne says hello. Hell, one of his customers might give you a ride. Their latest race car build is here.
Honestly there are only three valid reasons I've ever heard to stay rotary.
1) You're sponsored and Mazda won't let you.
2) You're a purist and don't care/refuse to believe the evidence. (Hell, some people want to drag race Yugo's just because they feel like it. Does it make it the smart/rational choice? Maybe not, but that doesn't make the reason any less valid.)
3) You're an all out racer and minute differences in polar moment of interia matter to you.
In everything else the v8 is superior. Trans I'd call a wash. I know too many folks who've blown up FD transmissions to say the the minor upside in feel is worthwhile.
-Joel
PS I make 462 rwhp and 413 rwtq using a stock shortblock ls1. Ls2/3/7 motors should all net you 500+ with a bit of breathing work.
PPS clutch issue video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUv
Im not going into details but Joel will come contest to this. Put this way, I have not been beat by a v8 yet!!!!
Thanks Robert
04-01-10, 01:05 PM
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FYI: Robert and I are good friends but he chooses to see things certain ways. In my list of three reasons to run a rotary, he's a #2 and that's fine.
Yes, I believe the ls1 is a superior motor to the wankel I replaced. I'm not changing my mind about that (and am always glad to debate logical arguments as to why)...
Yes, rotaries can be fast cars. Robert is one example of that and he's done well with avoiding blow ups to date. To his credit Robert is incredibly careful about systems like tuning (he has a wide band mounted on top of his steering column.) Heck, he replaces everything up to and including the wiring harness on his car periodically. Robert also has started running 110 octane racing fuel and meth injection to try to even out our power differences. Last I heard I still make more hp and torque (and I do it running Arco's finest 91 octane.) Sure he could crank the boost even more, but he's already having transmission difficulties and if he ups the boost he might compromise reliability even more. Robert's car is street legal but lives pretty much track only these days. I daily drive my car (motorcycle and wife's car are the only backups).
For what it's worth, in the track day above I was following Robert and he refused to give me the point by. As such, I began letting him go just so I could see if I could run him back down. I don't know if that counts as "losing" since it was just a fun day but I let him go and caught back up to him multiple times in the session without issue. So I'm being totally fair here, the track day where I was running him down was a day where Robert's trans issues first cropped up, so that would be one factor to my advantage since he had to shift carefully to get in third. However, I might also mention that Robert was running brand new 255/275 nitto nt01s while I was on 4 year old 225 section RA1s. His car may be a hair lighter than mine but otherwise we're fairly similar in terms of suspension etc.
Some folks get upset when you make a claim like "superior". At the end of the day everyone is entitled to believe what they want. In this case the OP obviously came to the same conclusion that I did about which motor he wants to run so most of this discussion is moot. To anyone else I say run what you want to run, just do so with your eyes open to the options out there and the various pros and cons (and yes, the v8 does come with some cons).
A side note for Robert: Hey amigo, just so you know I'm not trying at all to detract from what you've done as I believe you're a talented driver who built a rotary that represents formidable competition. If you want to prove you can take down the v8 cars I've already invited you on the road trip with me to SevenNotStock in Davenport, IA this summer. It'll have a drag race, dyno, and autocross. If that doesn't work maybe we have to set up our own Ultimate Street Car Challenge, a la sport compact car. My only concern in trying something like that is that you're able to handle it gracefully if you lose.
Yes, I believe the ls1 is a superior motor to the wankel I replaced. I'm not changing my mind about that (and am always glad to debate logical arguments as to why)...
Yes, rotaries can be fast cars. Robert is one example of that and he's done well with avoiding blow ups to date. To his credit Robert is incredibly careful about systems like tuning (he has a wide band mounted on top of his steering column.) Heck, he replaces everything up to and including the wiring harness on his car periodically. Robert also has started running 110 octane racing fuel and meth injection to try to even out our power differences. Last I heard I still make more hp and torque (and I do it running Arco's finest 91 octane.) Sure he could crank the boost even more, but he's already having transmission difficulties and if he ups the boost he might compromise reliability even more. Robert's car is street legal but lives pretty much track only these days. I daily drive my car (motorcycle and wife's car are the only backups).
For what it's worth, in the track day above I was following Robert and he refused to give me the point by. As such, I began letting him go just so I could see if I could run him back down. I don't know if that counts as "losing" since it was just a fun day but I let him go and caught back up to him multiple times in the session without issue. So I'm being totally fair here, the track day where I was running him down was a day where Robert's trans issues first cropped up, so that would be one factor to my advantage since he had to shift carefully to get in third. However, I might also mention that Robert was running brand new 255/275 nitto nt01s while I was on 4 year old 225 section RA1s. His car may be a hair lighter than mine but otherwise we're fairly similar in terms of suspension etc.
Some folks get upset when you make a claim like "superior". At the end of the day everyone is entitled to believe what they want. In this case the OP obviously came to the same conclusion that I did about which motor he wants to run so most of this discussion is moot. To anyone else I say run what you want to run, just do so with your eyes open to the options out there and the various pros and cons (and yes, the v8 does come with some cons).
A side note for Robert: Hey amigo, just so you know I'm not trying at all to detract from what you've done as I believe you're a talented driver who built a rotary that represents formidable competition. If you want to prove you can take down the v8 cars I've already invited you on the road trip with me to SevenNotStock in Davenport, IA this summer. It'll have a drag race, dyno, and autocross. If that doesn't work maybe we have to set up our own Ultimate Street Car Challenge, a la sport compact car. My only concern in trying something like that is that you're able to handle it gracefully if you lose.
04-01-10, 02:07 PM
#88
A side note for Robert: Hey amigo, just so you know I'm not trying at all to detract from what you've done as I believe you're a talented driver who built a rotary that represents formidable competition. If you want to prove you can take down the v8 cars I've already invited you on the road trip with me to SevenNotStock in Davenport, IA this summer. It'll have a drag race, dyno, and autocross. If that doesn't work maybe we have to set up our own Ultimate Street Car Challenge, a la sport compact car. My only concern in trying something like that is that you're able to handle it gracefully if you lose.
Also if I remember correctly, you said " the reason I went v8 is because I don't understand the rotary engine. As for the Ultimate Street Car Challenge, Lmk when it is. I have been waiting to do this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaknD...eature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4X2n...eature=channel
Thats me ahead of joel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhFD-blymyc
Later
Rob
04-01-10, 03:59 PM
#89
For what it's worth, in the track day above I was following Robert and he refused to give me the point by. As such, I began letting him go just so I could see if I could run him back down. I don't know if that counts as "losing" since it was just a fun day but I let him go and caught back up to him multiple times in the session without issue.
Anyways glw the v8 swap. Im sure it will be fast.Thanks Robert
04-01-10, 06:28 PM
#90
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It's certainly true that one reason I went v8 is because I don't understand why certain failure modes in rotaries occur (IE coolant seals). That made me not trust my last rotary and that made the car less fun.
Robert, lets take this offline, I don't want to argue with you in some dude's thread. If you'd like me to point out what I'm referring to in the videos I can.
Robert, lets take this offline, I don't want to argue with you in some dude's thread. If you'd like me to point out what I'm referring to in the videos I can.
04-01-10, 07:47 PM
#91
LR4 out of a Silverado will take up to 700 crank hp on the stock block... what else is to be said?
Oh I know..... RELIABLY and PROVEN
I love both engines but when you want to step it up with some reliable major power there is not much you can argue with.
Give a LR4 some boost, fuel and management and watch it tear. Oil sump problems are your new worries but to take care of that it is still cheaper when you are talking about serious power.
Good decision to move to the Chevy LS for what you want.
If you want a sweet daily driver a 300hp rotary is the bomb.
If you insist on rotary then P ports N/A are the bomb.
If you insist on serious power, look at a swap.
Oh I know..... RELIABLY and PROVEN
I love both engines but when you want to step it up with some reliable major power there is not much you can argue with.
Give a LR4 some boost, fuel and management and watch it tear. Oil sump problems are your new worries but to take care of that it is still cheaper when you are talking about serious power.
Good decision to move to the Chevy LS for what you want.
If you want a sweet daily driver a 300hp rotary is the bomb.
If you insist on rotary then P ports N/A are the bomb.
If you insist on serious power, look at a swap.
04-01-10, 10:55 PM
#92
Driving RX7's since 1979
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During the era of 2nd Gens, Mazda did a whole ad campaign
Rubbing it in how the Wankle cars kept going while the piston cars kept breaking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNQfXdp-2oI
And why piston lovers are called boingers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHzeGEHWMjo
I'll give that if you want more low end torque, LSx wins. Great for around town driving beating the car next to you to the next stop light.
But you also have to give it to Roberts point. Robert and his Wankle RX7 has yet to be beaten by any Oxymoron RX7's. Joel is a pretty smart guy in an engineer kind of way. But contrary to what Joel may say, actions speak louder than words..... EVERY.......SINGLE......TIME!
I do take exception to Joel's "2) You're a purist and don't care/refuse to believe the evidence. (Hell, some people want to drag race Yugo's just because they feel like it. Does it make it the smart/rational choice? Maybe not, but that doesn't make the reason any less valid.)"
By his Yugo reference, it's very much saying that anyone that stays Wankle in a car designed and built for the Wankle is not making a "smart/rational choice". In otherwords, they're being ignorant. Amazing soapbox to stand on and expect sell his view.
And finally, always meant in fun, read below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNQfXdp-2oI
And why piston lovers are called boingers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHzeGEHWMjo
I'll give that if you want more low end torque, LSx wins. Great for around town driving beating the car next to you to the next stop light.
But you also have to give it to Roberts point. Robert and his Wankle RX7 has yet to be beaten by any Oxymoron RX7's. Joel is a pretty smart guy in an engineer kind of way. But contrary to what Joel may say, actions speak louder than words..... EVERY.......SINGLE......TIME!
I do take exception to Joel's "2) You're a purist and don't care/refuse to believe the evidence. (Hell, some people want to drag race Yugo's just because they feel like it. Does it make it the smart/rational choice? Maybe not, but that doesn't make the reason any less valid.)"
By his Yugo reference, it's very much saying that anyone that stays Wankle in a car designed and built for the Wankle is not making a "smart/rational choice". In otherwords, they're being ignorant. Amazing soapbox to stand on and expect sell his view.
And finally, always meant in fun, read below:
04-02-10, 12:40 AM
#93
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One more thing. Notice in the "I'm falling to pieces" ad that the majority of the broken cars being towed, pushed, and pulled are GM products. Who makes the LSx engines again?
04-02-10, 03:18 PM
#95
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^ it started life as a crate engine, it was built in 2002.
Last weekend I got some work started on the part out, mainly prep for pulling the engine. I had planned on pulling the engine this weekend, but work has gotten in the way and I'm on travel now @ Ft. Bragg and then i'm heading to Germany until the middle of may.
Anyway, here are some pics. I'll probably start a proper build thread when i get around to pulling the engine and transmission out.
Car on stands
After a bit of work I got quite a bit stripped out.
Fluidyne radiator with stock fans.
Undertray (i may replace this with a new one), rad hose, battery box, catch can, stock IC and duct
Lots of clamps came off.
Box full of bits to sell.
intake and AST, and some misc hoses.
Last weekend I got some work started on the part out, mainly prep for pulling the engine. I had planned on pulling the engine this weekend, but work has gotten in the way and I'm on travel now @ Ft. Bragg and then i'm heading to Germany until the middle of may.
Anyway, here are some pics. I'll probably start a proper build thread when i get around to pulling the engine and transmission out.
Car on stands
After a bit of work I got quite a bit stripped out.
Fluidyne radiator with stock fans.
Undertray (i may replace this with a new one), rad hose, battery box, catch can, stock IC and duct
Lots of clamps came off.
Box full of bits to sell.
intake and AST, and some misc hoses.
04-10-10, 12:29 AM
#96
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Some of you guys about the rotary vs LSX swap cars are unbelievable. "I've never been beaten", "They aren't as reliable", "trans sucks", "nose heavy" etc.... "Its my way or the highway".
I've owned 5 FD's, two are LS swaps. I'm a track instructor, (for the past 8+ years), have been a chief driving instructor, I've tracked both rotary and LSX swapped FD's.
First - congrats to section 8 on the swap. Also, your driving at VIR is nice - 2:11's are moving along very nicely. I did notice your seat is really moving around though - lots of side-side under extreme cornering? Something to think about if you aren't already.
I'm on my second LS swap - and I'm doing 100% of this one. Feel free to drop me a line with questions - but the v8rx7forum is a tremendous resource for that and the best place to start.
Just a few thoughts.
"won't feel the weight in the nose" - first, its nearly identical/or lighter than the stock rotary setup - its the T-56 transmission that adds the ~30-50lbs over the rotary,(its over 125lbs, vs I think 75 for the rotary). Tracking the car - even the best driver is going to be hard pressed to tell any handling difference assuming the cars are setup the same. The extra torque down low changes some handling coming out of corners - that's the biggest change.
"Shifter feels like crap/etc.." That is a function of two things - first, the shifter installed on the car, the shifter arm, and overall height of the shifter arm. The FD can be smooth - but it has more slop. If you put a short arm/shifter **** on a T-56, its hard to shift. If you put a longer one on - which I have, it shifts very nice. I personally prefer the stock Hurst shifter,(talking about the part that bolts to the trans), as it is more precise than the stock one, but not as hard as the ones designed for the drag racing/power shifting crowd like the Pro 5.0. Its precise - but only hard to shift if you have the wrong components on it. I could shift mine with 1-2 fingers - as that's how I prefer to drive.
"reliability" - well, that depends on so many factors, and which motor your actually talking about. Both can be made tremendously reliable and both have their Achilles heels that will kill the motor if not addressed. They both are great on the track.
Bottom line - what do I pick? Track environment only - depends on power level requirement. 450+ = LSX. 300-400 = either way if done right. and 450+rwhp in a 28-2900lb car is outright phenomenal - a mid-high 10 sec 1/4 mile car if you were into that if that helps put it into perspective.
For daily driving - absolutely zero comparison for how nice the v8 is to drive every day. off-idle power, driving around - its like the car should have been built. Track - for a well setup car, I'll go with either, but my personal current preference is the LSX.
I ask, please don't let this denigrate into yet another rotary vs v8 swap discussion. I beat so and so, I'm faster than xyz, I drove in so-and-so's car and it was slow/fast/better/etc.. - that is so subjective. The driver makes up 90% of the equation for road racing, if not more, and a reasonable amount for drag racing. Daily driving is purely subjective. I may like a Cadillac ride and you may like a go-kart ride. Same on power.
Section 8, you'll really enjoy the journey down the LS swap - hopefully you finish the swap soon so you minimize missing track days with your FD - since you well know the RX8 just isn't the same!
-Bobby
I've owned 5 FD's, two are LS swaps. I'm a track instructor, (for the past 8+ years), have been a chief driving instructor, I've tracked both rotary and LSX swapped FD's.
First - congrats to section 8 on the swap. Also, your driving at VIR is nice - 2:11's are moving along very nicely. I did notice your seat is really moving around though - lots of side-side under extreme cornering? Something to think about if you aren't already.
I'm on my second LS swap - and I'm doing 100% of this one. Feel free to drop me a line with questions - but the v8rx7forum is a tremendous resource for that and the best place to start.
Just a few thoughts.
"won't feel the weight in the nose" - first, its nearly identical/or lighter than the stock rotary setup - its the T-56 transmission that adds the ~30-50lbs over the rotary,(its over 125lbs, vs I think 75 for the rotary). Tracking the car - even the best driver is going to be hard pressed to tell any handling difference assuming the cars are setup the same. The extra torque down low changes some handling coming out of corners - that's the biggest change.
"Shifter feels like crap/etc.." That is a function of two things - first, the shifter installed on the car, the shifter arm, and overall height of the shifter arm. The FD can be smooth - but it has more slop. If you put a short arm/shifter **** on a T-56, its hard to shift. If you put a longer one on - which I have, it shifts very nice. I personally prefer the stock Hurst shifter,(talking about the part that bolts to the trans), as it is more precise than the stock one, but not as hard as the ones designed for the drag racing/power shifting crowd like the Pro 5.0. Its precise - but only hard to shift if you have the wrong components on it. I could shift mine with 1-2 fingers - as that's how I prefer to drive.
"reliability" - well, that depends on so many factors, and which motor your actually talking about. Both can be made tremendously reliable and both have their Achilles heels that will kill the motor if not addressed. They both are great on the track.
Bottom line - what do I pick? Track environment only - depends on power level requirement. 450+ = LSX. 300-400 = either way if done right. and 450+rwhp in a 28-2900lb car is outright phenomenal - a mid-high 10 sec 1/4 mile car if you were into that if that helps put it into perspective.
For daily driving - absolutely zero comparison for how nice the v8 is to drive every day. off-idle power, driving around - its like the car should have been built. Track - for a well setup car, I'll go with either, but my personal current preference is the LSX.
I ask, please don't let this denigrate into yet another rotary vs v8 swap discussion. I beat so and so, I'm faster than xyz, I drove in so-and-so's car and it was slow/fast/better/etc.. - that is so subjective. The driver makes up 90% of the equation for road racing, if not more, and a reasonable amount for drag racing. Daily driving is purely subjective. I may like a Cadillac ride and you may like a go-kart ride. Same on power.
Section 8, you'll really enjoy the journey down the LS swap - hopefully you finish the swap soon so you minimize missing track days with your FD - since you well know the RX8 just isn't the same!
-Bobby
04-10-10, 09:18 AM
#97
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Hey Bobby,
Joe is driving a mostly stock FD and probably running 2.20s. I think you're confusing his times with Pat's times. When running 2.11s you're climbing all over most everybody at an HPDE event.
Outside of that great info as always
You also need to run around town in a really well setup twin turbo sequential FD making good power (320 rwhp)........it's super FUN!!! I haven't driven a v8 fd anywhere but I'm sure it's fun as well but I like the sounds of the turbo charged rotary and the feel of the turbo power. Test drove the new m3 (boring), cayman (boring), Porsche GT3 feels sort of like the FD and it's fun and hopefully I'll own one soon
To me as far as reliability goes it's a V8 all the way or any NA engine that can provide the same performance and on top of that I'll also take the corvette trans all day over the FD trans which is a POS for road racing. My current car has been through 2 transmissions and a diff in 4 years but the engine is hanging on by a thread lol. I still love the rotary and will continue to run my car as is until you or Brent or someone with a really nice road racing v8 FD moves on to something else But to me it just makes no since to spend 12k to built one when I can buy a decent rotary track car for 14k or less w/ a blown engine (2k fix). My current car is pretty well sorted and I don't want to go any faster down the straights so I'm happy to stay in the 13Bs power comfort zone of 300 to 350. My car is also a good weight 2800 with me in it and I could loose another 50 easily. I love the sound of the rotary and actually don't like the sound of the v8 it's just load to me and I realize lots of folks don't like the rotary but I'm a huge Neil Young fan so maybe my ears just suck 
Joe is driving a mostly stock FD and probably running 2.20s. I think you're confusing his times with Pat's times. When running 2.11s you're climbing all over most everybody at an HPDE event.
Outside of that great info as always
You also need to run around town in a really well setup twin turbo sequential FD making good power (320 rwhp)........it's super FUN!!! I haven't driven a v8 fd anywhere but I'm sure it's fun as well but I like the sounds of the turbo charged rotary and the feel of the turbo power. Test drove the new m3 (boring), cayman (boring), Porsche GT3 feels sort of like the FD and it's fun and hopefully I'll own one soon To me as far as reliability goes it's a V8 all the way or any NA engine that can provide the same performance and on top of that I'll also take the corvette trans all day over the FD trans which is a POS for road racing. My current car has been through 2 transmissions and a diff in 4 years but the engine is hanging on by a thread lol. I still love the rotary and will continue to run my car as is until you or Brent or someone with a really nice road racing v8 FD moves on to something else
But to me it just makes no since to spend 12k to built one when I can buy a decent rotary track car for 14k or less w/ a blown engine (2k fix). My current car is pretty well sorted and I don't want to go any faster down the straights so I'm happy to stay in the 13Bs power comfort zone of 300 to 350. My car is also a good weight 2800 with me in it and I could loose another 50 easily. I love the sound of the rotary and actually don't like the sound of the v8 it's just load to me and I realize lots of folks don't like the rotary but I'm a huge Neil Young fan so maybe my ears just suck Some of you guys about the rotary vs LSX swap cars are unbelievable. "I've never been beaten", "They aren't as reliable", "trans sucks", "nose heavy" etc.... "Its my way or the highway".
I've owned 5 FD's, two are LS swaps. I'm a track instructor, (for the past 8+ years), have been a chief driving instructor, I've tracked both rotary and LSX swapped FD's.
First - congrats to section 8 on the swap. Also, your driving at VIR is nice - 2:11's are moving along very nicely. I did notice your seat is really moving around though - lots of side-side under extreme cornering? Something to think about if you aren't already.
I'm on my second LS swap - and I'm doing 100% of this one. Feel free to drop me a line with questions - but the v8rx7forum is a tremendous resource for that and the best place to start.
Just a few thoughts.
"won't feel the weight in the nose" - first, its nearly identical/or lighter than the stock rotary setup - its the T-56 transmission that adds the ~30-50lbs over the rotary,(its over 125lbs, vs I think 75 for the rotary). Tracking the car - even the best driver is going to be hard pressed to tell any handling difference assuming the cars are setup the same. The extra torque down low changes some handling coming out of corners - that's the biggest change.
"Shifter feels like crap/etc.." That is a function of two things - first, the shifter installed on the car, the shifter arm, and overall height of the shifter arm. The FD can be smooth - but it has more slop. If you put a short arm/shifter **** on a T-56, its hard to shift. If you put a longer one on - which I have, it shifts very nice. I personally prefer the stock Hurst shifter,(talking about the part that bolts to the trans), as it is more precise than the stock one, but not as hard as the ones designed for the drag racing/power shifting crowd like the Pro 5.0. Its precise - but only hard to shift if you have the wrong components on it. I could shift mine with 1-2 fingers - as that's how I prefer to drive.
"reliability" - well, that depends on so many factors, and which motor your actually talking about. Both can be made tremendously reliable and both have their Achilles heels that will kill the motor if not addressed. They both are great on the track.
Bottom line - what do I pick? Track environment only - depends on power level requirement. 450+ = LSX. 300-400 = either way if done right. and 450+rwhp in a 28-2900lb car is outright phenomenal - a mid-high 10 sec 1/4 mile car if you were into that if that helps put it into perspective.
For daily driving - absolutely zero comparison for how nice the v8 is to drive every day. off-idle power, driving around - its like the car should have been built. Track - for a well setup car, I'll go with either, but my personal current preference is the LSX.
I ask, please don't let this denigrate into yet another rotary vs v8 swap discussion. I beat so and so, I'm faster than xyz, I drove in so-and-so's car and it was slow/fast/better/etc.. - that is so subjective. The driver makes up 90% of the equation for road racing, if not more, and a reasonable amount for drag racing. Daily driving is purely subjective. I may like a Cadillac ride and you may like a go-kart ride. Same on power.
Section 8, you'll really enjoy the journey down the LS swap - hopefully you finish the swap soon so you minimize missing track days with your FD - since you well know the RX8 just isn't the same!
-Bobby
I've owned 5 FD's, two are LS swaps. I'm a track instructor, (for the past 8+ years), have been a chief driving instructor, I've tracked both rotary and LSX swapped FD's.
First - congrats to section 8 on the swap. Also, your driving at VIR is nice - 2:11's are moving along very nicely. I did notice your seat is really moving around though - lots of side-side under extreme cornering? Something to think about if you aren't already.
I'm on my second LS swap - and I'm doing 100% of this one. Feel free to drop me a line with questions - but the v8rx7forum is a tremendous resource for that and the best place to start.
Just a few thoughts.
"won't feel the weight in the nose" - first, its nearly identical/or lighter than the stock rotary setup - its the T-56 transmission that adds the ~30-50lbs over the rotary,(its over 125lbs, vs I think 75 for the rotary). Tracking the car - even the best driver is going to be hard pressed to tell any handling difference assuming the cars are setup the same. The extra torque down low changes some handling coming out of corners - that's the biggest change.
"Shifter feels like crap/etc.." That is a function of two things - first, the shifter installed on the car, the shifter arm, and overall height of the shifter arm. The FD can be smooth - but it has more slop. If you put a short arm/shifter **** on a T-56, its hard to shift. If you put a longer one on - which I have, it shifts very nice. I personally prefer the stock Hurst shifter,(talking about the part that bolts to the trans), as it is more precise than the stock one, but not as hard as the ones designed for the drag racing/power shifting crowd like the Pro 5.0. Its precise - but only hard to shift if you have the wrong components on it. I could shift mine with 1-2 fingers - as that's how I prefer to drive.
"reliability" - well, that depends on so many factors, and which motor your actually talking about. Both can be made tremendously reliable and both have their Achilles heels that will kill the motor if not addressed. They both are great on the track.
Bottom line - what do I pick? Track environment only - depends on power level requirement. 450+ = LSX. 300-400 = either way if done right. and 450+rwhp in a 28-2900lb car is outright phenomenal - a mid-high 10 sec 1/4 mile car if you were into that if that helps put it into perspective.
For daily driving - absolutely zero comparison for how nice the v8 is to drive every day. off-idle power, driving around - its like the car should have been built. Track - for a well setup car, I'll go with either, but my personal current preference is the LSX.
I ask, please don't let this denigrate into yet another rotary vs v8 swap discussion. I beat so and so, I'm faster than xyz, I drove in so-and-so's car and it was slow/fast/better/etc.. - that is so subjective. The driver makes up 90% of the equation for road racing, if not more, and a reasonable amount for drag racing. Daily driving is purely subjective. I may like a Cadillac ride and you may like a go-kart ride. Same on power.
Section 8, you'll really enjoy the journey down the LS swap - hopefully you finish the swap soon so you minimize missing track days with your FD - since you well know the RX8 just isn't the same!
-Bobby
04-10-10, 09:54 AM
#98
All out Track Freak!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsEvfDbCD2s
Bobby, here are some typical 2:10 11 laps w/ the FSR Porsche group. Fast laid back group w/ good drivers and open passing w/ a point.
Bobby, here are some typical 2:10 11 laps w/ the FSR Porsche group. Fast laid back group w/ good drivers and open passing w/ a point.
04-10-10, 10:58 AM
#99
Rotary Freak
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Fritz, I never get tired watching your vids, two things jump out at me from watching
1. You never get passed, must be nice keeping both hands on the wheel, (I wouldn't know)
2. the porsche drivers dont lift at all when the point you by, its like it hurt their feelings.
Johny
1. You never get passed, must be nice keeping both hands on the wheel, (I wouldn't know)
2. the porsche drivers dont lift at all when the point you by, its like it hurt their feelings.
Johny
04-10-10, 11:19 AM
#100
I agree with Fritz, there's something about the visceral feel of turbo power that I love and you don't get with an N/A motor, V8 or rotary for that matter. Whenever I've driven an American V8 car, the feel is BAM—torque, and then a rather undramatic (if fast) linear climb up the revs. I love the rush of a turbo rotary building all the way to redline. I also dig the sound. Must be me.
It'll be fun to play with you guys in May. I'm looking forward to it.
It'll be fun to play with you guys in May. I'm looking forward to it.