j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

my first drive in an 8 was at thunderhill, and i drove it like a forklift, like there was a **** on the steering wheel, and it was still quick, and even though i was doing stupid stuff it didn't bite!

actually you can find 04/05's with bad coils, for that, people are too lazy to diagnose these things, and just assume the engine is bad

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I autox an SSM FD, and I can't believe how good the RX-8 handles right out of the box.

Find a 2004/5 with a blown motor or low compression for $4-5k (shouldn't be too hard) and just put a new motor in it.

I've had 2 Miata's, and indeed they are nice, but the RX-8 handling is quite a bit better than the Miata's, largely due to chassis flex.



...and jkstill's FD is FAST. Like show up in a trailer and beat most everything on track fast.

Bargains are out there for the RX-8.

I bought my 2004 60k miles for $1,200. Nordic Mica Green nearly perfect body. Dealer diagnosed it with blown engine after they couldn't start it and it returned a compression test with low compression all around and zero on two rotor faces.

$1,200, one can of starting fluid, use of a 200amp battery charger/booster and 10 minutes and I had a (auto) RX-8 to rail on till I get around to engine swapping it.

When shopping for a blown engine RX-8 ask how it blew. If you hear it ran fine when parked and then wouldn't start it is most likely carbon locked seals. Obviously (to us anyways), engines don't blow while sitting over night.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

yeah in the 21st century engine is bad, but car runs ok.

people also just assume rotary engine = bad, so they don't diagnose it very thoroughly, if at all.

jim-san

Thanks guys, these are some good tips.

I never thought about the RX-8 ... thought the resale prices would be too high. But just did a quick check of '04-'05 RX-8s for sale in my area. Asking prices are lower than for '90 Miatas with 50k more km. on them! Mind-boggling.

So maybe I'll switch my search to an RX-8. Just finding a rust-free Miata is hard enough ... then, you have to add a hard top ($750 - $950) and roll bar/roll cage ($450 - $2,000). The RX-8 starts to sound like a good deal.

jrx13

iTrader: (3)

There are deals for RX-8s but I haven't found any - j9fd3s has got the eye for them.

I've gotten four Miatas in the last six months though.

1st one was a 1990 I picked up for free - repaired crankshaft and did a timing belt on it and sold it. Friend who bought it daily drives it now and is prepping for track. He bought a used roll bar and a bunch of other stuff.

2nd one - 1999 NB Had a rod knock for $1400. Put a used motor in for $800 sold core motor for $300. Sunk some money in this one - was going to give it to my kid but picked up another so this will probably be new race car.

3rd one - 1995 crashed front end but low miles. Parting it out. Basically got it for $800 after all the add and minuses and used that money to buy 4th one.

4th one - another 1995 bought for $1000, has a new Hard Dog roll bar and a fairly new soft top. Needs head gasket. Taking low mileage motor from crashed one and putting in this one.

Now, none of these cars are cream puffs but I mean these are dirt cheap! And there are ton of Miata parts available everywhere. I mean I have an RX-8 too and would love to track it but if you want cheap track car, there's really no question. I mean you can pick up cheap wheels, shocks, coil overs, everything. Oh the last three I picked up all had Torsen differentials and those go for like $600-$700 on the used market!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

for like 5k the Rx8 is a lot of car!

since you're in a rust area, look at the rear wheel wells, i guess they rust at the seam between the outer quarter panel and inner panel. its a CAD fail.

the other place they rust, which is easy to prevent, is around the 3rd brake light. i haven't looked in there yet, but i have a feeling that doesn't get paint. so fix is easy, just paint.

other than that, the Rx8 owner balk at having to buy anything, so things like the add coolant light ($150 fix, new coolant bottle), and the cabin air filter ($45) usually aren't done.

things you want to do once you buy it are;

1. clean the Eccentric shaft position sensor. again CAD fail, its a magnet in a place that collects dirt.
2. reset the E shaft profile in the ECU, turn key on, step on brake pedal like an orangutan (20 times) until the oil pressure needle moves, and you're done.
3. it needs spark plugs, because the guy before you didn't change em.
4. check the wires for continuity AND they should positively fasten to the plug.
5. put a timing light on all 4 coils, we don't care about the timing, we are just looking for spark.
6. clean the front caliper slides.
7. general consensus is that Redline MT90 is what you want in the trans.
8. if you have the airbox and its serving tray out, there are a couple of grounds and the power steering connector that should be clean and tight.
9. the car hasn't been aligned, ever. the factory alignment is actually totally fine on the street and will do track days, if its more dedicated, it more front camber is just an adjustment away.
10. i like to find the two intake valves, VDI and SSV? and cycle them by hand a few times with the engine off, they should move easily and freely.
11. the whole interior is held in by like 10 screws, and it can be out on the floor in 20 minutes. i suggest removing most of the plastic (dash stays) and a good scrub in the kitchen sink, Rx8 owners are dirty as well as cheap.
12. while you're changing the oil, tighten the undercover screws, they like to fall off, and undercover is $$. screws are 9CF6-00-516B, plastic clips are BC1D-56-145

13. enjoy!

jim-san

Cheapest Miatas I've seen this spring (Jan. - April):

$2,500, 130k miles (209k km.) upstate NY

Listed on C/L Tuesday, made appointment Tuesday night to see it Wednesday at noon. 1 hour into 3-hour drive to see it, seller calls me on cell and says it's sold! Had $2,500 in cash with me, almost at Canada/U.S. Border.

$1,500, 125k km. (78k miles) Ontario

Listed on Kijiji, e-mailed and called same day. Called again next day. Never got any return phone calls/e-mails. Would have stalked owner, but didn't have address.

$3,500, 197k km. (122k miles) Ontario

Rusted. Seller won't sell it to me (even if I wanted to buy it) because I told him I wanted to turn it into a track car. Seller didn't want his "baby" to be tracked.

$2,500, 300k km. (186k miles) Quebec

Has rust on rockers. Worth driving 2 hours (each way) to see? Not sure yet.

And those are only the cheap cars! Let's talk later about the 160k km. cars that sellers are asking $7k for.

jim-san

Thanks j9fd3s! Lots and lots of good info here!

RX-8s for sale near me:

$7,999 113k km. (70.2k miles)

$6,500 112k km. (69.9k miles)

$5,995 137k km. (85.1k miles)

$7,600 104k km. (64.6k miles)

Haven't seen any yet ... but planning to.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i looked at miatae before i bought my last 8, and the cheap ones go QUICK here too.

Valkyrie

The correct answer is shifter kart.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

actually yes, fits in a pickup truck and about 2 seconds a lap off the pace of an F1 car... i think M. Schumachers 2005 car went 1:09 at laguna, shifter carts are about 1.11, a really good FD will be in the 1.30's, GT40/917/spec miatae are 1.40's...

Valkyrie

It'll fit in a mini van with the rear seat out if you take the wheels off.

It would take some serious ***** to get that sort of time on a full-sized circuit though. Also, since the frame and seat are wear items you really want to get one that only has a couple hours on it. Rebuilding the engine is pretty much a must, too. And shifter kart tires also don't last very long.

jim-san

What types of questions would you ask an RX-8 owner before you see the car?

I contacted one owner (65k miles on the car) and this was the reply I got:

"I have had too many people waste my time. Let's go through your questions and willingness to pay close to my price before we take the time to have a visit."

Sure, there are time-wasters on C/L and Kijiji, but I was willing to drive 1 1/2 hours (each way) to see this car ...

So, my questions for the seller are:

1. have you driven this car during the winter? (important here in the snow belt)

2. how often do you change the oil? Do you do it yourself?

3. do you follow the Mazda maintenance schedule? Where do you have the maintenance done?

4. do you have the full set of maintenance records? (And can I see them?)

5. how often do you check the coolant level? Have you ever had an engine over-heating incident? (important here where it can get stinkin' hot in the summer)

6. have you ever tracked the car?

7. do you normally carry farm animals in the rear seat, or is it always that dirty? (Yes, the back seat looks that dirty in the pictures in the ad.)

Any other RX-8 specific questions that should be asked? I'm still debating whether it's worth looking at this one.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i cheat. i just ask for the vin and then i can run the warranty history through Mazda, and at the bottom of that is a customer pay history too, so i can see that its been maintained (or not).

its probably good to ask about the winters, and the services. oh actually if its an 04 you should ask if its got two remotes, they go bad, might as well make sure its got both keys too. if it needs an emissions check, make sure it gets done before you hand over any $$

i just looked at the three i bought and its funny. #1 was, here are the pics, my response was my flight gets in @10:30... (i flew from SFO to LAX)....

#2, there are also more pics, and i actually talked him down on price...

#3, was local, so i just said i should go see it, she talked ME down on price.

jim-san

Just got back from taking my FD out of winter storage for a 125 mile ride. It's easy to forget over the winter what a beautiful car this is.

So I'll look at some RX-8s this week.

wrankin

I'm a little late to the dance here, but figured that I'd get my two cents in (what that in Canadian $$ these days?) ;-)

Well, I think the first thing you need to do is get more specific on what you really want to *do* with the car. What makes a good auto-x car is not necessarily the same thing that makes a good lapping or time-attack car. There are lots of trade offs to think about.

Do you primarily want to be in competitive events? Two of the three things you mentioned above have specific class regulations. As someone once said: "Pick your class, then pick your car". I don't agree with that 100%, but class limitations will affect your choice.

Quick background - I have an FD, started doing HPDE with it. Did the reliability mods. Got faster. Started on the safety modes (roll-bar, harnesses). Realize that I was starting down the slippery slope and didn't relish the idea of stuffing it into a wall. Went and bought a cheap NA FC already set up for the track (gutted, rollbar seats & harnesses). Have been having fun ever since. :-)

Please recite the following with me:

You have identified cost (primary) and reliability (secondary) as your two objectives. So performance will have to take a back seat. Lets break your criteria down and look at them. But in a slightly different order.

I suspect this has a lot less to do with the car and more to do with you. I will say however that having a) the proper safety equipment that allows me to be comfortable pushing my limits, and b) the reliability of a car that I do not have to maintain (or need) as a daily driver, does help keep the "way fun" **** turned up to 11.

One misconception is that limited performance will mean limited fun. In some cases I feel it's actually the opposite. Take my FC for example. 150rwhp (maybe) and 2400#. Stock brake setup. Decent track tires, but not the best. Now I'm not about to go out there are set a "Fritz Flynn in an FD" kind of lap time. But I can get out there and occasionally chase down a Vette or a 350Z (and in turn get chased down by a well driven Miata or BMW). And even when there is no one in front (or behind) me, having my foot buried in the floor running down the front straight (and imploring the hamsters under the front hood to "run faster!!") always puts a big grin on the face.


Up front costs are always a concern. Having to cut one big check is always a little daunting. But realize going forward that depending on your level of involvement, the cost of the car is really not your most major expense. I am not a huge track junkie - I'm going to try and make four good weekends this year. But in one season the amount I will likely spend on track fees and consumables will likely be as much as the original price of the car.

The other thing to consider is the prep level of the car. If you can afford it up front, it is much cheaper in the long run to get a car that has already been built to some level. I bought my already track-prepped FC for about half of what it would have cost to build the exact same car from a stock model (even with used parts).

What level of prep do your want to maintain? Since you seem to be looking at this as "track car that I can drive to the event" I would speculate that he cost of insurance is not going to vary much by car model (get the minimum amount you can - you've already said you are willing to write the car off). Forget gas mileage - you will burn most of it on the track and when you are barreling down the front straight the last thought that will be in your mind is how much gas you could save by lifting slightly. ;-)

Tires - remember that those 18's are going to be much more expensive than 15s.

Parts - it depends what parts you are looking for. Newer cars will be expensive. Much older cars will be *much* more expensive. There is a sweet-spot in the middle. There are ways to keeps your parts costs down - welcome to the world of the cheap/free "spare chassis". Start thinking now about where you are going to store it. :-)

That's your call as to how "attached" you become to the car. I find the fact that since I don't rely on the car for transportation (she's a trailer queen) and look at is as being a tool for going out and having fun on the track (which is my primary focus), I don't have a lot of emotional investment.

I would have to (reluctantly) rule out the FB. Parts are tough to come by and good chassis are becoming scarce.

The MazdaSpeed Miata is out also. It is just too decked out. I don't think you would view it as expendable and once you started fitting it out as a primary track car you are just as well off going with a base model.

If you are looking at more auto-x than open track and want a good car to learn with, there really is not much out there better than a Miata. But the market out there is weird - mainly I suspect due to the very large contingent of racers. Prices seem artificially high for decent chassis and used performance parts are not as discounted as they are with other models.

Also remember that for any track event, a good roll-bar is required for a Miata. For timetrials, at least here in the US, a proper roll-bar (one that meets spec and passes tech) is required in all cars (convertible or not). So factor that in.

The NA FC is what I drive. It's a '91 model gutted to the metal, stock engine. The recipe for making it handle decently is pretty well established. The NA engine spins to 8k all day and is very reliable (more so I would say that even a Miata). Just slightly heavier than a Miata, but more power. Not the most sophisticated suspension ever designed, but nice and predictable none the less (once you have the proper setup)

Actually any turbo rotary I would exclude b/c of #2 and #3. They can be made reliable, but it ain't cheap.

Not sure what your minimum "street legal" requirements are up in Canada. In the US, they vary significantly state to state. I could get my FC road legal, but the very stiff suspension, low ride height, lack of power steering, fixed seating position, etc. would make it completely miserable to drive on public roads. Which for me is how it should be. If I start looking at it as the "high performance street car" rather than "expendable track toy", then I have completely given up on #4.

The RX-8 is an interesting option, and I've occasionally given some thought to one as my "next track car". But it's definitely a more expensive platform and I would not be as comfortable "writing it off" as I would the FC. Also, at least here in the US you must maintain ODB-II compliance to pass annual inspection, which is a little limiting.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your search.

-bill

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the Rx8 is actually getting down to FC prices, and its a much newer car, that doesn't need a ground up restoration...

plus, with the Rx8 the engines have a bad reputation, and its a) not true, and B) Mazda sells a reman for $2000.

my 3rd car fell into A group, i bought a 74,000mile 2004 base model for $3500 that was pronounced dead by a "race" shop. they just opened the hood saw a rotary and assumed it was bad

4 coils and some other misc stuff later (air filter, spark plugs, oil change, new floormats, updated starter, etc $1175.74), and i've got a nice DD with AC, and a nice radio that if i brought it to the track, will run right with your FC.

i should also point out that Rx8 parts are cheaper than FC parts new.

wrankin

Na na NA nA nA Naaaaaa <I'm not listening!!> Na naaaananaaa aannnaaa...


Yeah, but basically I have about 1+1/2 "spare" FCs right now and I do *not* have any partial RX8's lying around. Got a lot of spares. I suspect divesting myself of the FC habit would take several years. There is also the issue that while I have no problems with taking an angle-grinder to sections of the FC when needed, I just can't picture myself doing the same to an RX-8.

All the same, an RX-8 track car would be fairly awesome.

-bill

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

The most important question you can ask when buying a car from a private party....

"Why are you selling it?" Then not only listen to what they say and how they say it but their body language too...if you know how to read it it will tell you almost everything you need to know about the car.

Valkyrie

The first thing you're supposed to do when building any track car (well, race car) is...well, tear the whole thing apart.

So if you want to do it right, you would end up doing the same amount of work.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

me too, i basically swept the shop floor and came up with an S5 turbo car, so far ive bought a clutch slave, dash and diff mounts...

jim-san

We don't have pennies any more since our government abolished them. So we don't have cents. And, if we elect another Harper government, that will prove we don't have any sense either. Sorry. Enough with the lame political jokes.

Thanks, you've provided a lot of things to think about here. If I can attempt to clarify a bit:

Track priorities:
(1) Time Attack
(2) Lapping
(3) ... maybe Auto-X. A distant third.
(4) no fender-to-fender racing.

Cost priorities:
(1) low up-front cost for the chassis (max. $7.5k, preferably around $5.5k. Hard to find for a Miata here in Ontario, but not impossible)
(2) low replacement cost for parts
(3) low (as much as that's possible) cost for tires
(4) not worried so much about gas and insurance.

Chassis priorities:
(1) sufficiently rust-free on the underbody that nuts are not rusted in place
(2) no rust on rockers or, at the very least, rust-through

After-market parts:
- the more available, the better (favours Miata)

Buy vs. Build:
- Prefer to buy a stock car, then build as I can afford it (or want to)
- But wouldn't rule out an already prepped car if I could find one

Street Legal, emissions etc.
- pretty sure Canadian emissions standards are about the same as, or close to, the U.S. standards (excluding CA)
- not ready to trailer a car to tracks yet, but I do have a truck (Chevy K1500). Just no trailer.
- so need to be able to drive to tracks (1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, naming the closest 3 tracks to my home). Car needs to be able to pass emissions tests every two years.

Hardtops, Rollcages
- I haven't done a detailed paragraph-by-paragraph comparison, but some of the Canadian Time Attack rules for roll bars seem to be identical to the SCCA specs
- roll cages not required for TA events, only roll bars.
- hardtop not required for TA events. Convertible top must be up.
- but I would prefer to have a roll cage (or at least a rollbar) and hardtop on a Miata, so I've been factoring this into my costs

Looked at my first RX-8 today (with a thought to buying it, not just idly looking at one at the auto show). I could get emotionally attached to that car real, real fast.

So I think an NA Miata is probably still the best choice (at least for me).