wingsfan

You're right it's a gray area thing. I was fine with the explanation Damon ahd given me for moving the thread in the first place, and I'm fine with it being moved back.

As for classification, I pretty much go right into the unlimited classification where anything goes. Why I can't be competitive with a bunch of roadsters though, I don't know.

There's plenty of power on tap with the conversion that I haven't even touched yet. Displacement can go all the way up to 7.5L with the same engine footprint. There's also power adders if need be (I likely won't).

As for how useful the information is, that's going to depend on the individual reader. My car weighs about what it should have with the 13B in it, and none of the suspension gemoetry has changed. So, impressions of the Nittos are relevant, as are impressions of the JICs. And some people who are on the fence about the conversion may want to hear impressions of how a converted car performs. Just because you don;t want the conversion for yourself doesn't mean it's not a viable option for anyone else.

Of course, we already know your opinion of whether or not this belongs in this section, so if you're just going to show up every couple of posts and break my ***** because my car no longer has a 13B in it, save yourself the trouble.

If I was giving my impressions of autocrossing my 20B powered car you probably wouldn't give me any **** over whether or not the post was in the right forum.

I'm trying not to dump on you personally, but you have managed to strike a nerve. I mean really, after awhile all the PMs and emails from people telling me what a bastard I am, and that they hope I rack my car up because of the powerplant in it get old. It's a ******* engine people, get over it already.

reza

For JIC FLT-A2, I run 14 clicks front and 8 clicks rear.
The stiffer the front the easier the turn in would be.

RETed

Really, I don't give a **** what you run in your RX-7, but I do have my personal opinions on those pistons swaps.  There is no need to go into that, as that is besides the point.

I question the validity of the content - that's it.  You can state that (static) weight is very close to a 13B, but I find it impossible to believe that dynamic weight differences are the same or similar.  At the very least polar moment is changed - how much?  I think we will never know, as finding out an objective answer takes a multi million dollar machine to measure.

I also believe power output has a direct impact on suspension reaction.  With that said, it's pretty moot to mention that the powerband of a V8 engine is vastly different than a 13B engine.  This, to me, makes reference to V8 RX-7 performance in regards to suspension quite questionable.

It's funny you mention 20B...  There's a pretty lengthy discussion in the 20B section on suspension set-up on a 20B FD, and I question whether it was better to move the thread into the suspension section.

Before you go bust my *****, it was never my intent to question the V8 swap.  I just question the application of the thread into this Race Car section...that's all.  After thinking about all the other sections in this forum, I think you're right - this is about as good as it gets in the Race Car Tech section.


-Ted

88IntegraLS

SOME OF US WANT TO KNOW HOW THESE SWAPS CAN RACE! I don't check the conversion section. It is boring. It is for tech related discussion, not racing. If I hadn't seen the thing in action with my own eyes, this thread would be important to me. Turbojeff regularly gets top time in his FD and was a few slots off that rank this event in a car that he had no prior experience in . . which kind of hints that the car he was in was a decent platform.

DamonB

I originally moved this thread out of the Race section and then I moved it back because the racers seemed to want it that way, so this is where it will stay. The intent of wingsfan is to share his race experiences with the car so that suits me fine.

God has spoken


...polar moment, weight distribution, over powering the chassis and whatever else can be argued until everyone is blue in the face. The stopwatch doesn't lie. A car that is racing has only one thing it needs to do well: Get to the finish quickly. This v8 car don't appear to be no slouch

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

So how fast was it?

Check the results. We raced the car in OSPO.

http://www.eescc.org/Results.cfm?get...t=BW&selName=*

If the new Kuhmos would have been as much faster as stated the car would have been EASILY TTOD. The Camaro running ESP that beat me was on the new Kumhos.

Remember we were also the first group out. Experienced auto-xers will know that times drop as the dirt/grit is swept off the line and the pavement warms up a little. Remember it is March.

I'm going back to take care of my new baby (literally).

jimlab

Holy ****, someone gets it. (I know you've gotten it all along, but just pretend)

It is absolutely ludicrous that people make such a dramatic production of debating the effects on weight distribution, polar moment, center of gravity, and any other technical reasons they can think of for why a V8 swap "ruins" an FD, but when it all comes down to it, they'd likely get their asses handed to them at any venue by a decent driver behind the wheel of that "ruined" car...

So Damon, where do you think the horsepower per liter advantage of the rotary engine comes into play when stock for stock, it can't outperform a car (oh, I don't know, let's say a Z06 Corvette) which weighs a few hundred pounds more and has less than half the horsepower per liter?

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

You start off saying someone gets it and immediately start talking liters and weights



Stock z06s on a road course get in the way of a well modded fd with equal drivers. One cost 50k and the other cost 25k. Choose your poison but in my world money matters. To me its how fun is the trip, what the trip cost, and how succesful was it or how much did I learn. In that order. I'd rather vacation with an fd if you get my drift


Turbo Jeff,
I can't wait to ride in or drive a v8 converted FD sounds like a great trip
Fritz

SCCA racing V8 RX7

You really are a Dork Ted. So tell me...been on any roads over there in Honolulu where you can top out your car. Or is the Rust eating at your car so much that your just a Crabby person?

Hell yes I want to know How the LS1 Rex handled. I was there taking photos of the car that same day. To top it off there really cool guys.


KEEP UP THE FEED BACK!!!!!!!

jimlab

Perhaps you'd better read my post again.

See above, and keep an eye out for the words "stock for stock".

A new FD in 2004 dollars would easily be in the high $40k-low $50k range. In fact, the window sticker on my 1995 PEP was $41,000 and change. If we're going to argue about price, someone who couldn't afford the Corvette probably couldn't afford a new FD either... something to think about.

redrotorR1

That would be ASSuming that there is an advantage in the horsepower per liter category.

Alright, enough with the bench racing BS. A cool car is a cool car .... whether or not it violates your sense of what's right and wrong. I want to see this car dialed in.

-Don

jimlab

Precisely. It's unfortunate that more rotary lovers bragging about high power to displacement ratios don't understand that.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

Wingsfan, those are some pretty decent times, considering you're on Nittos with less than one season auto-x experience. You'll notice a lot of improvement on race rubber, but it will also tend to mask a lot of your weaknesses too, if you want to learn to drive well, get into a lower-powered car for a few events, the lack of power will force you to improve your technique if you want to improve your times. If you trust the DSP Miata guy, ask him to switch rides for a bit, see what times you guys get in each others' cars. The Miata drivers in my region are pretty talented.

Speaking of which, what is the calibre of the other drivers that had similar times, namely the Miata, the VW's, Camaro, and 'Vette? How well-prepped were they? You should have them all majorly outclassed, with the exception of maybe the VW's, depending on their setup.


I'd really like to see a comparison of Turbojeff's ASP-prepped car vs. the LS1, if possible in-car footage of the same driver in both cars on the same car.


-s-

wingsfan

Yup, I definately need some more seat time, which I intend to get. Unfortunately I'll be moving this summer, so I won;t get a full season in.

As for the DSP miata, that thing was pretty much a full on race prepped car, complete with the cage, racing seat, real race rubber, and semipermanent numbers/letters. He was definately fast, and in complete control of his car.

As for switching cars with anyone, Jeff is pretty much the only person I know there, other than my friend with the SM talon (Ed Allen). I've driven his car several times, but never in a competetive setting.

It's tough for me to say who's a good driver and who is not, given my relative newbie-ness. As mentioned before, the guy in the Miata is obviously a good driver, the two people running the ESP camaros (tim and Pegy Steck), are ususlaly competetive, but rarely the TTOD. The two guys in the rabbit are both good drivers, and that things is pretty much a shell (I think you could lift the back end up without a jack, it's that light).

Jeff did manage to beat the time of the top SS Z06, which has a decent driver, ran later in the day after the surface was warmed up and cleaned off, and the car was running Hoosiers (complete with foil tire warmers for the time in between runs ). Both Bill and Cheryl usually turn in respectable times, but again, not usually the TTOD. The other Z06 has a decent driver as well, but he's more used to the little race track they run down in Medford than cones. He was also on Hoosiers.

The CMod camaro is usually pretty fast (and entertaining), and is definately a trailer queen. They run a gutted car with massive race tires, race gas, and an open exhaust.

All in all, my car held up pretty well against all of the usual contenders.

That was our original intention but Jeff's wife was very pregnant at the time, and he didn't want to spend all day at the autocross. I will be wifeless for the next two months here, so hopefully we will be able to do some co-driven events and get a better comparisson sorted out. I'd guess that Jeff would be faster in his car because he's already got it sorted the way he likes it. But, who knows, more time behind the wheel of my car and he'll only get faster.

As for footage, I don't see that happening unless we can find someone to loan us a camera, plus then we'd have to carry a passenger (an extra 200# of useless weight), as I haven't gotten around to putting a cage in just yet.

88IntegraLS

The competitive drivers in this club are a lot better than me, if that helps. I'm the 87 FC just above the OSPO V8 FD.

I've autocrossed a few times in a couple different cars, both with street tires, and each time I have come away learning a new technique to get through the course faster. This last time I had to forget my front wheel driving technique and learn how to handle the FC at its limits. It was very different from my 88 Integra.

pp13bnos

iTrader: (1)

How did the Rx-8 do? CJ

RETed

Looks like I touched a nerve here...

I never questioned the car being fast.
I never questioned the car's performance.
I never questioned the car's technical aspects.

I questioned it's relevance to this race section when the majority of vehicles are RX-7's with 13B's in them.

So people start insulting me and where I live...
That's just plain stupid - how old are you???

If the technical content of this thread is demanded, then so be it.
I never said to get this thread out of here in the first place.

Personally, I think the car is waste of time when you're trying to run in an "unlimited" or "everything" class.  There are a lot more other combinations that will go faster (Ultima GTR or any other spec racer kit) with probably a lot less money.

My replies to this thread ends here.



-Ted

wingsfan

Ultima GTR with less money in it

Those are about $70K before you've even thought about an engine. I have less than half of that in my car.

That makes my day Ted.

The sad thing is, I agree with you. If I were trying to competitivly race the car then it's a dumb move. The whole point for me is to just have fun. Because I spend 99.99% of my time driving the car on the street, it's no big deal. I just happen to autoX from time to time.

EricM

Very nice logic. So it would mean that we shouldn't buy cars at all then. Because every time something came out e.g. Z06, something else comes out 5 yrs later that outperformed it with less money(inflation considered). Is that correct ? That makes you look very smart indeed pouring untold tens of thousands of dollars into a hybrid FD when you can buy a new Z06 for near the same price.

One question for you and wingsfan, why don't you just buy a Z06 like redrotorR1 did ? A 2001 sell for just above $30k nowadays which I'd presume comes close to total cost : $10k FD, $6k engine/trans, $5k custom parts, $10k labor and misc stuff.

I have nothing against LS1 as it is one the lightest, most efficient, compact V8 that is available readily anywhere. But you can't argue with physics. It is longer, taller, and heavier than the 13B turbo. One g in my house is one g at your house(or slightly different if you live in the equator maybe). Steering will feel number, more understeer, bump steer will occur, etc. Ever wonder why P-cars, F-cars, NSXs, Lemans race cars, F1 cars, etc put their engine in the back ? Or why the new Z,G35, S2K touted superior handling due to front midship design ? Or even why the Corvette put their transmission in the back ? Or why the Viper has such a long front end ? Hope you get the drift here. If you just wanted huge torque, reliability, and good looks, buy the new Mustang then.. oh wait Mustand =/ reliability.

wingsfan

I thought about it for sure, but at the time I startwed you couldn't get a z06 for what they are going for now, and I already had the FD on hand. Plus there was the challenge and the pleasure associated with all of the troubleshooting and fabrication. I acquired a number of slkills, and a ton of information about how a car works that I wouldn't have by just plunking down the money for a vette.

Quote:

I have nothing against LS1 as it is one the lightest, most efficient, compact V8 that is available readily anywhere. But you can't argue with physics. It is longer, taller, and heavier than the 13B turbo. One g in my house is one g at your house(or slightly different if you live in the equator maybe). Steering will feel number, more understeer, bump steer will occur, etc.

These comments here tell me that a) you haven't driven an LS1 powered FD, and b) you haven't put any thought or research into the conversion process at all.

Yes my engine is larger, longer, and heavier. The bulk of the weight of the enginie is also lower in the chassis. Bump steer is corrected with the use of an adjustable height tie rod. Steering feels about the same as all of the steering related equipment remains.

Your suggestion that the car is going to understeer is laughable. The car's tendencies with regard to over/understeer if anything are biased toward oversteer, and either way those tendencies can be manipulated with the suspension setup.

Even the age old argument of disrupting the 50:50 balance is BS. My car weighs about the same as it should have from the factory. it weighed in at 2960 lbs with 2/3 a tank of gas and 52 lbs of extraneous crap in the car.

I can appreciate enthusiasm for the rotary, and even the cult-like reverence that many people have for them, but that doesn't excuse the actions of many people talking out of their *** about what the converted car "should" be. Quite frankly, when it comes to an LS1 converted FD, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've owned the car with both powerplants now, and I can tell you that all of the BS that rotary fanatics like to throw around about what I "ruined" by doing the car is just that, BS. The handling is not "ruined", my car is not a heavy pig, and I'm not going to hell for swapping out my engine.

jimlab

No, it means that people who make a big deal about "bang for buck" are usually short on "buck".

Actually, my Z06 cost about half of what I have into my FD, but thanks for your concern about my financial situation.

You mean like redrotorR1's father did.

Because we both happened to have perfectly good FDs in need of engines... that weren't rotary.

Not by enough to make a significant difference, it appears.

Or not...

88IntegraLS

Bwahahaha. This FD kicked some serious a$$ and you guys want to argue about the traditional V8 swap stuff. Lol. The laser timers don't lie!! You can make VW rabbits own everyone if you know what to tweak. This thread turned into another rotary religion confrontation.

EricM

Nope, I haven't driven an LS1 powered FD, I have driven a Z06 though and it's probably close enough.

Lower in the chassis ? Mind to elaborate on that ? The 13B could've sit lower and farther back if we make custom mounts as you did for the LS1 anyway right ? Steering feels can't be the same if the the weight resting on wheels are much different and steering geometry is altered(however little it is). Maybe the difference doesn't bother you, maybe it's smaller than I'd expected that's fine.

Realllyyy ? Maybe not so much laughable considering so many of high performance vehicles and racecars went into so much painstaking effort to shed weight in the front. I understand suspension setup and knows how to make a car understeer/oversteer by changing sway bar setups etc. but that's a compromise. Please explain why so many F-cars, P-cars, F-1, etc put their engine in the back then.

yeah right. My FD(when I still had it), weighs 2640 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas, AC, radio, cat, etc still on.
What does 2960 lbs have anything to do with 50:50 anyway ? A 2960 lbs car can have 2000 lbs on the front wheels and 960 lbs on the rear wheels. Your logic IS laughable.

That's cool. I'm not bashing you here, just questioning you, calm down dude. I contemplated on putting in a 4G63 engine in there myself when I still had the car, but never got around to actually do it. Maybe the handling feel does not change much, that's fine. If I'm in the area, I'd love to go check it out.

EricM

So you're telling me you've never bargain-shop ? You don't have a particular gas station you go to that you know is $0.10/gal cheaper than most for the fuel-addict FD ? You don't shop at WalMart at all ? Given 2 items exactly the same, you'll buy the more expensive ? You buy new cars at $10k above sticker just for the hell of it ? What exactly do you do ? Many self-made rich people ARE concerned about best bang for the buck, that's how they succeed.

I just wonder why do you always feel the need to justify whether your decision is correct. If you know the route you went is correct then good for you, no need to shout every time that Mazda and everybody else is wrong. Does the thought gnaws at you every night that your decision might be wrong ? Chill out dude, you'll live happier.

What is that got to do with anything ? It's a bit condenscending IMHO.

Or yes...

wingsfan

I don't thik so. I've driven both. While I really like the Z06 the fact remains that it is a much bigger car than the FD. THe Z06 feels very boat-like in comparisson. While the handling stats and the lap times might suggest that they are quite similar, the z06 to me feels more clumsy, the FD quite a bit more nimble. That may be my own personal bias though, as I've never driven them back to back.


No problem, The bulk of the wieght in an LS1 lies in the crankshaft. The intake manifold is composite, and the cylinder heads are aluminum. THe camshaft is hollow, the valves are lightened, etc. GM went to great lengths to make the thing light. The engine actually doesn't sit as far forward as most would have you beleive. The belt driven accessories are the majority of what extends over the axle.

To address your second point, yes there probably is more weight over the steering rack, but not enough to notice. maybe if I went directly from a 13brew powered fd to driving mine the difference would be readily apparent. I don;t notice anything, and Jeff didn;t complain about anything, and he drove his FD to the event, minutes before climbing into mine to run the event.

I understand perfectly well why an all out race car goes with a MR engine setup. To get the bulk of the weight between the axles. I also understand that the FD was/is marketed as a mid-engined car, as that seems to be a big detail that people that dislike these swaps latch on to.

I think you (and quite a few others) would be surprised by how little weight actually sits in front of the steering rack. Again, most of what is forward is the water pump, the crank puley, and that's about it. My AC compressor sites behind the rack, and the PS pump is almost directly above it. I also managed to cut a whopping 26 lbs off of my battery, and positioned it farther back. I'd guess that the overall forward weight difference isnt all that much. By most estimates the 13brew with all the turbo accessories is nearly 400 lbs, while the ls1 is around 430-440 labs. The generally accepted difference in weight is around 60 lbs.


Whoops, chalk that one up to a brain fart on my part. I meant to post this link with it

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=274368

Basically, the car weighed 1660 with the front axle centered over the scale and 1620 over the rear axle. There's a little overlap in the middle region as we didn't take the time to get it exactly distributed, but the jist of itis that it's damn close to 50:50. Total weight was 2960. I'm sure if I threw my stock wheels back on it would be about 20 lbs lighter than that.

I weighed the tools, coolant, laptop, fire extinguisher, etc. that was in the car when I got home, and it toatlled 52 lbs. So, assuming no scale error (and it has to be within 20 lbs of accuracy by law) that leaves 2908 lbs with 2/3 of a tank of gas. My car is a 94 touring, so it started life as one of the heaviest FDs. Jeff told me that at a national SCCA even in Bremerton, a similar car wieghed 2900lbs with less fuel in it than I had. Anyways, I haven't really done anything other than the battery to lighten it, so it's a pretty good comparisson between the stock setup and the converted one. And the actual weight of the car computes out to much closer to 50:50 than the 2000:960 you're suggesting


I'm calm, I'm calm. I just get tired of answering the same questions all based on all the same tired assumptions. There are so many rumors and misinformation floating around that it gets extremely frustrating answering quesitons about the swap. I put a lot of effort and research into the setup before I went for it. I didn't just go grab the first heavy *** iron blocked iron headed v8 I could get my hands on. I went with the lightest all aluminum block that I could get. Someone else already made a kit for the major mounting points, so that saved me a ton of work there.

Anyhow, like I said, instead of just buying a vette what I gained was a ton of knowledge about the workings of a car, a ton more torque, better fuel economoy, and some peace of mind when I romp the throttle. Nothing more. It isn't a magic bullet. It didn't transform my car into a supercar overnight. I don't make ten bajillion HP now. I also didn't sacrifice any weight, handling, or looks.

As for a ride/ checking out my car, I'll take anyone and everyone who's willing to go for a spin. if I nnow you I'll even let you drive. It's far easier to let someone experience it first hand and see what it's like, and what the shortcomings are than to just argue about it online. Everyone I've taken for a ride "gets" it afterwards, even if the swap itself is not for them. Jeff is a perfect example. I seriously doubt you will ever see him perform the swap himself. It's just not his cup of tea. But you bet your *** that he'll jump at the opportunity to co-drive an event with it.