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3rd gen brakes - good enough?

Old 07-10-02, 10:48 PM
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3rd gen brakes - good enough?

Hello,
A question for those who actually RACE their 3rd gens on road courses or the like...
Generally speaking, is there a NEED to upgrade the calipers/rotors to larger units or is it sufficient to just put on some nice pads and maybe some slotted rotors?
I'm not trying to win One Lap here, but I'm trying to get an idea if there is any point in blowing several thousand bucks on a car that will probably see less than 10 track events per year.

Brian
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Old 07-10-02, 11:08 PM
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I've warped 2 sets of stock rotors on the street decelerating from 100 to 50 2 or more times in close succession. I don't have R1 brake ducts, I'm sure they would buy you some more time, but still the factory system seems wholly inadaquate for track use.
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Old 07-10-02, 11:16 PM
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I know this is directed towards 3G owners, but I wouldn't think about giving my car that kind of track use without brake ducts just for brake fade alone. Also, a cheaper alternative you might consider is cryogenically treated rotors with the race pads. Here is an example although I'm sure there are dozens of other companies that offer the same service. That said, I've never raced a third gen so I really don't know. Just thought that might help.
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Old 07-10-02, 11:19 PM
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On the topic of ducting... is it better to direct air into the center of the rotor or against the inside braking surface?

B
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Old 07-11-02, 02:29 AM
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depends on your goals really. in order to be competitive, i think you'll need upgraded brakes. if you just want to go out and do some laps and learn how to drive a bit better, than the stock brakes should do fine. i'm personally of the mind that in road racing, car preparation priority should be 1. reliability 2. suspension/tires 3. brakes 4. power.

keep in mind that i am relatively new to road racing, so the above is my slightly educated opinion.

i do know for a fact though, that if you are driving hard on a road course, big brakes will make you very happy.

regarding ducting.....most people direct cool airflow into the center of the rotor with the expectation that the air will flow into the center and out through the vanes in the rotor.

good luck
fabian
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Old 07-11-02, 03:06 AM
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Drive it on the track with the stock brakes until you start using the brakes enough to warrant the upgrade. The stock brakes with some decent pads are good enough for your first few events. Then play with different race pads (Blues, PFCs, etc.) and cryo for a while until you get tired of the inconsistent performance or the lack of longevity for pads and rotors. Then get big brakes. How fast you go through this progression will depend a lot on your driving style and what tracks you go to. If you are mostly concerned about your first event, you can probably get away with some solid street pads, but bring a spare set to get you home in case you burn through them. You'll want track pads soon after. Swapping pads is pretty easy, but you do get sick of it after a while.

-Max
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Old 07-11-02, 06:39 AM
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Yeah, I agree with Max. I used the stock FD brakes (with various race pads) for 5 seasons until this year (my 6th season); I switched to the '99 Type RS (Japan spec) brakes all the way around with Porterfield R4E brake pads all the way around. The '99 Type RS brakes were so good, I was actually OVERSLOWING the car (REALLY!). The Type RS brakes with Porterfield R4Es easily allowed me to drive 9 to 10/10 during an entire 30-minute lapping session without a hint of brake fade...my Hoosiers would go away before the brake pedal would!
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Old 07-11-02, 12:26 PM
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Stock FD brakes are fine. Just get new pads and rotors. I recommend using project mu with power slot rotors. I go on the track with this setup and I have yet to see any fade or wear on my rotors. Japanese pads are of higher quality than American ones in my opinion
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Old 07-11-02, 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by maxcooper
Drive it on the track with the stock brakes until you start using the brakes enough to warrant the upgrade.
He'll probably use the brakes MORE at first until he gets comfortable knowing where he doesn't HAVE to brake. I brake less now on the track than I did when I start, and my brakes are happier because of it (on my '80)
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Old 07-11-02, 08:40 PM
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I have used stock brakes with Hawk Blues in the front for numerous HPDE sessions where I am in ABS prior to every turn. I have not seeing any issues with warping mainly because I am very careful to let the brakes cool down on the cool down lap. Also do not set you parking brake after running or you will surely warp the rotors.

In the back I have either run Blues or stock pads without problems.

-Mark
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Old 07-11-02, 08:47 PM
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I got away with just using the stock rotors/calipers with good pads for a couple years by using CWC's brake ducts. If I didn't try to do threshold at every corner they worked ok. Only problems were on corners where you have to slow down a lot, I'd get a lot of pedal travel but by the next corner they were fine. It wasn't until I got a single turbo that they really became inadequate.

When you're starting out you usually won't use your brakes as hard as you will when you have done a few track events. Besides, working on threshold braking is probably the last thing you want to work on to lower lap times.
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Old 07-12-02, 12:34 AM
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Hehe, I guess my concern is that I have a T04S single.... that gives me quite a bit more power than stock, so I just want to make sure that my brakes are up to the task.

B
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Old 07-12-02, 06:06 AM
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Hmmm in that case you'll need to go with the '99 Type RS brakes all they way around to get your beast "whoaed"!
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Old 07-12-02, 08:48 AM
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Brian,
For your first track event in the 7 at a minimum get some race pads (Hawk Blue or PFC - EBC's will NOT last) and flush the brake fluid ensuring the system is full with a good DOT4 fluid - ATE Super Blue or Motul 600 are excellent for starters. Other than that you should be fine for your first few events on the stock brakes. What happens with the stock brakes is heat saturation of the rotors. This is purely mass dependant and how well they are cooled. Ducting will help considerably. However once the rotor is "saturated" the heat goes into the pads and into the fluid. Not using a good pad (race pad) will result in the pad material temperature limts being exceeded, your brake pedal goes rock hard and your braking ability diminishes to nothing. Similarly if the heat is then transfered through the pad and into the brake fluid (hot rotor, hot hub, hot pads etc etc), the fluid will boil (why it is important to use brake fluid with a high boiling point) and your pedal goes to mush. The effect is the same, a driver pumping feverishly on the pedal all the while continuing to move at a fast rate towards the tire wall while not slowing down! So once you have exceeded the heat "capacity" of the stock sized rotors it's time to move up to a larger rotor and/or better ducting. Of course they do say that the fastest way around a track is to NOT "use" your brakes
Regards,
Crispy
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Old 07-12-02, 09:36 AM
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Crispy already said what I wanted to point out, but it is important enough to say again - use a good high temp brake fluid.
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Old 07-12-02, 12:08 PM
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Guys, I'm fixing to look like a dumb *** after asking this questions but I have NEVER worked on brakes, not even to change a pad!!!!!!

As I ask this question keep in mind I just got done pulling my motor and rebuilding my transmission haha

What is the best way to change brake fluid? haha, I feel like an idiot now lol

Do you have to drain it at evey wheel to insure that none of the old is left somewhere? What is THE BEST fluid to use? I'm planning some track events and want some real good fluid and pads.

Sleep R1 - are those porterfieds you like so much good for track and street? I daily drive my car.
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Old 07-12-02, 12:22 PM
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SPOautos,
I use the ATE Super Blue DOT 4 racing fluid which also comes in a goldish color. Just keep flushing the stuff through the system until it changes color. Then you know all the old is out and all the new is in. And yes at each wheel caliper.
As for flushing the brake fluid I built my own pressure bleeder for $25 using a common household garden sprayer.

http://www.apexcone.com/Bleeder/bleeder.html

It works like a charm but you have to get a MAzda cap of course.
Regards,
Crispy
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Old 07-12-02, 12:26 PM
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IMHO, for your first track event you just need to make sure everything is in working order. You will not push your car more than about 70% of its capabilities plus you will have an instructor in the car with you. YES bleed the brakes, but you can you use the Castrol SynTech stuff which works great and is cheap. Before you spend a ton of money on tires, wheels, brakes, seats, belts, roll cages, etc, you want to make sure you LOVE doing it. Of course have not met anyone that has not in a 3.

For the first track event I ran a completely stock car, and thought I was bad ***. Of course after a few you realize how damn slow you were really going the first time.

Just go and have fun.

-Mark
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Old 07-12-02, 12:40 PM
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So you basically drain all the brake fluid out then fill it up with the good stuff and bleed the system till the good stuff starts to show up, then top it off and your good to go.

Crispy, do you have to pressurize the system to bleed the brakes or does it just make it easier?

Thanks guys,
STEPHEN
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Old 07-12-02, 01:02 PM
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Stephen.
No never "drain" the system entirely. Just push some new fluid through the system and add more when the level in the reservoir drops. When the color of the fuild you are pushing out of the caliper matches that of the fluid you just added to the master cylinder reservior then the brake line and caliper should be pretty well flushed of the old stuff.
BUT, never let the brake fluid reservior get empty. What you can do to speed the process is to get a turkey baster and suck out the fluid from the reservior and refill with new fluid bfore starting the brake line flushing "process." It's just then a matter of pushing the old fluid out of the brake lines. As for pressurizing the brake system and reservior yes but only to a few psi, you don't want to blow the reservior off the master cylinder.
BTW if you want to hook up with another track junkie friend of mine who just moved to Huntsville from my area let me know.
Regards,
Crispy
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Old 07-12-02, 01:04 PM
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Stephen,
That is basically it. It is easiest if you use a different color fluid so you can see when the fluid is through to the caliper. You want to start with right rear, left rear, front right, front left.

Most importantly is do not let the master cylinder get low with fluid while draining and suck in air. If this happens you need to start over.

Speed bleeders make this job easy as well as a power bleeder. If you are going to do track events, you will end up bleeding your brkaes ALOT. Good investment.

Did you ever finish that IC?

-Mark
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Old 07-12-02, 01:10 PM
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Check this product out...it does work...but you can't screw the cap adapter on too tight, or else the cap will LEAK!

Pump the vessel up to 10 psi, and you can bleed all four wheels, and the clutchline.

The downside is you need lots of fluid, and it gets messy...have plenty of rags ready to catch fluid from the reservoir!

http://www.motiveproducts.com/

The MX-6 application will work for the FD Rx7...that's what I ordered...
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Old 07-12-02, 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by mpetersrx7
Stephen,
That is basically it. It is easiest if you use a different color fluid so you can see when the fluid is through to the caliper. You want to start with right rear, left rear, front right, front left.

Most importantly is do not let the master cylinder get low with fluid while draining and suck in air. If this happens you need to start over.

Speed bleeders make this job easy as well as a power bleeder. If you are going to do track events, you will end up bleeding your brkaes ALOT. Good investment.

Did you ever finish that IC?

-Mark

Yea we finished the IC and everything but Brian decided not to sell them yet cause he's to busy building turbos and motors for eveyone......he own BNRsupercars. It's kinda worked out for the best, I'm still running our prototype on my car and am fixing to redo the airduct in either thick fiberglass or carbonfiber. We did it in alum but just dont like the way it looks and its very time consuming to cut out and weld. It looks real edgy (alot of angles) in alum and I'd rather it look nice and curvy like carbon fiber or fiberglass. I'm going to redo it and hopefully have it finished for when he decided to start selling them.

Hey SleepR1 - how are those Porterfield's when cold like they would be for a autox or just driving to work. Would they make for a good daily driver pad as well as track???

Where is the best place to get some of these high performance fluids and pads???

Anyway guys, thanks for all the tips!!!!

STEPHEN

Last edited by SPOautos; 07-12-02 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 07-12-02, 03:00 PM
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The R4Es hook up stone cold...but better daily driver track pads are the STOCK Type RS FD Rx7 brake pads (fr/rr). I used those at an open-track event at Putnam Park and they worked fantastically with the AVS Intermediate road tires in sweltering 130-degree track temps! During the daily commute the stock Type RS brake pad dust is absolutely minimal, I'd say at least as good as the EBC Green Stuffs...
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Old 07-12-02, 03:27 PM
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Wow, the stock 99 pads must be pretty damn good then, are the 99pads really that much better than the stock 93-95 pads??? Will they work with my stock 93-95 brake system? Currently my brakes are bone stock, and when I say stock I mean these are the pads that rolled off the assembely line haha

Where is a good place to get the 99 pads??? Can I get them from my local Mazda?

STEPHEN

Last edited by SPOautos; 07-12-02 at 03:31 PM.
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