trainwreck517

iTrader: (1)

I have recently got my car tuned at a local shop who is every familiar with tuning PFC and rotaries. I have just installed a Datalogit in the car, and went through the map. The timing seems a bit aggressive / sloppy and would like some feed back.

The car drives very well, with solid 11.0 AFR at 15psi. Had a track day (road course) last weekend, only ran 10psi (getting used to the car setup). Sadly had to cut the day short due to an exhaust leak issue, but when the car was driving it was very smooth and responsive.

I am familiar with tuning Haltech, however this is my first time playing with a PFC (which is why I paid someone to tune it for me, however I still want to learn this system).

The mod list for the car is as followed:
13B-REW Street ported.
850CC Primary, 1300CC Secondaries.
Supra Fuel pump (rewired).
Greddy V-spec FMIC.
60-1 Single turbo.
GM 3-bar Map sensor.
Zeitronix Wideband.

Tuned to 15psi (P15 = ~15psi fyi when looking at the map).



Fuel looks very smooth in my opinion.




Feedback on timing is what I am after the most. P16-P20 not used, however I think I should change the split to at least 15 in case of a boost spike / creep. That sound like a good idea?

Here is a link the map for you FC-Edit users.

http://www.picsbyalvaro.com/misc/map...8-14-2010-.zip

Thanks!

arghx

iTrader: (3)

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arghx

iTrader: (3)

if you are running 15psi, that's 15.0 / 14.22 or 1.05 kg/cm^2 . That puts you at about PIM 20500, or just past P18 row. I know it's kind of stupid the way the units work, but it sounds like you aren't fully comfortable with that aspect of the PFC. Go to setup --> maps --> mapref labels to get the full labeling for each axis. Now open up the default Apex'i map and use the compare function with your current map and you can see what he did with the timing:



Once you get near full boost he pulled 6 degrees of leading across the board and 2 degrees of trailing across the board. The result is aggressive split but very conservative leading timing. I think there is so little leading timing that it will most likely make up for the aggressive trailing split.

I'd say your timing will probably work but it's hardly optimal.

trainwreck517

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the feedback. I did a bit of searching and found the PIM to PSI conversion formula. So based on the this formula I calculated the values below:



Does that look about right?

For some reason I was under the impression P15 was about 15PSI, so thought map was running 18-25 of advance at 15PSI which made me nervous. Thank you for clearing that up!

arghx

iTrader: (3)

yeah that looks right. in my head it's easiest for me to think of 10000 as atmospheric pressure (0psi) and 20000 as 1.0 kg/cm^2 boost (14.22 psi). That chart's probably right though. The proper conversion from PIM units should be a little less than what I'm doing in my head.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Your split is too aggressive and inconsistent for boost.

trainwreck517

iTrader: (1)

What would you suggest? Increase split by 2 degrees where it is different then the default Apexi map (run Apexi default split timing)?

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Most use 12-10 split for high boost.
You are a member of my tuning group, download and look at my GT35R and non-seq maps for sure, and also look at some others there.
It is also mentioned in the notes.

The best way to show us your file is to zip and attach it here.
Then we can download it unto our computers to use the DATALOGIT on it.
Photos are archaic for map!

silverfdturbo6port

iTrader: (26)

For one a general rule of thumb for tuning to even start without blowing your **** is 15deg Ltiming for 15psi of boost, so 15 for15. and after peak torque you only need to advance a degree or two not 5 like u have. another thing is i noticed is your split. Really you dont need split in vacume but what i do is make all vacume 2 on split map and boost i just make them all 12 split. You really are not going to make more than a couple hp with less split and its ten time safer to run more split instead of making your split map look like a timing map. In a few i will post a few of my maps when i was making 535hp on 20psi and i also have a folder of info that i actually paid for and the best one is the tables for map senor for rescaling all you do is enter numbers and it does the math for u.

silverfdturbo6port

iTrader: (26)

well here are the timing maps and i need your email to send the zip file with all the helpful files and believe u will use the **** out of them lol

dont worry about the-6 and 2 in the vacume i hit a number when taking the pic. they should be 0 like the rest lol

trainwreck517

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I have reading your tuning notes and will be looking at your sample maps for comparison. Thanks!

The map was listed on the first post. Here is is again, in case you missed it:
http://www.picsbyalvaro.com/misc/map...8-14-2010-.zip


Thanks for the feedback. The car was Dyno tuned by local shop who is familiar with rotaries. But I felt the timing was a bit aggressive, but after learning to read the map properly the Leading timing seems conservative, with the split being aggressive.

I am after a safe tune, rather then an aggressive one. This car is just a track car, so I'd like to have a reliable / fun car rather then try to squeeze every extra HP out of it.

I'll PM you my email address. Thanks!

elwood

iTrader: (1)

I have a MoTeC M2R, and my MAP is in terms of Volumetric Efficiency (VE) and RPM instead of PIM (or PSI) and RPM. How do I correlate PSI to VE?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Post screenshots. VE related maps have their origins in GM and Bosch systems. Megasquirt uses it a lot.

elwood

iTrader: (1)

Here is my main timing MAP. It was created for me by a tuner a while back. Due to many factors, I doubt he spent much time on it. I do remember we had some off-idle driveability issues, so he changed the timing there in an attempt to improve it.

The values are very different from the PFC MAP, so I'm eager to get your assessment.

My engine:
- 13B-RE
- FD (13B-REW) rotor housings
- Streetport
- 4 X Mercury Marine coils
- 4 X ID1000 injectors (recently changed from 4 X 1600cc Bosch)
- 0.8 bar (12 PSI) max boost, controlled by ECU (for now -- but I'd like to increase it later, with the addition of water injection)

arghx

iTrader: (3)

So I'm looking through the User Guide for the Motec M84 http://www.motec.com.au/filedownload...pdf?docid=3752 because I can't find one for the M2R. I know the M2R is a rotary-specific model but I'm sure it's just a modification of their basic platform.

On page 15 it says

When I read this and then look at your map, it specifically says that the map is rpm vs load (does not say VE anywhere). Normally VE related tables are used for fueling. If you look at old speed density GM stuff they have VE calculations everywhere. It seems to me that your map has kPA absolute pressure on the Y axis and rpm on the X axis. That's a common configuration for aftermarket control units.

Looking at the spacing, it has most of the resolution between 40kPA and 200kPA absolute. If my math's right, that's between about 17 inches mercury vacuum and 14.5psi boost. Your 0kPA row is for high rpm deceleration (high vacuum area) and your 300kPA is overboost protection, hence the very retarded values.

The map looks ok to me, although that very last 8500rpm column is weird. You could probably pick up more power/torque y adding a little more timing in boost over say 6000-6500rpm but you would need a dyno to figure that out. You could probably add more timing in vacuum as well considering you are running 9.0:1 rotors and I presume 93 octane fuel.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

You mentioned some "driveability issues" off idle. Are you using an earlier drop-in crank angle sensor on your engine or an FD crank trigger? You could definitely run more timing in low loads. I would consider your timing retarded too far in vacuum... it may run better with over 30 degrees in the lower load/cruising vacuum areas.

elwood

iTrader: (1)

Thanks a million. I am running the drop-in CAS. The poor low pulsewidth resolution on the 1600cc injectors was causing havoc with idle and off-idle tuning, so he retarded the timing in the idle region to ease the transition from idle to part throttle. With the ID1000s, the resolution should be much better, and I'm planning to put the vacuum timing back in.

1. How much timing should I add at vacuum?

2. My split timing is set to 10deg across the board. I see the split MAPs for other applications. Is that advisable for me, too?

elwood

iTrader: (1)

. . . and the weird values in the 8500 RPM column must have been introduced during the export function. The real values in the ECU are consistent with the ones in the neigboring column.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

If it were me, I would add 10 degrees of leading timing to the vacuum areas from 2000 rpm to redline. If you look at the maps that most Power FC cars are running, they actually run more than that.

As for split, well there are different ways of doing things. 10 degrees is ok. I like to add more split at higher boost levels, up to a max of 15 split. The reason I do this is purely for safety--it might cost a couple HP. As a safe starting point I like to run maybe 10 degrees below 10psi. Then 12 degrees at 10psi, ramping to 15 degrees at 1 bar and higher. Other tuners run less, but I prefer this as a starting point. Then if I have enough dyno time available I'll start playing around... basically reduce split (which advances trailing timing) and see if that picks up much power. Then you make the judgment call--ok, so I reduced split by 3 degrees, how much power did that give me? Is the presumed marginal decrease in safety worth the marginal increase in horsepower?

The 15 degrees thing isn't an arbitrary number. We have known maps from Mazda, disassembled from the stock T2 ECU and Rx-8 ECU that run about 15 degrees at high loads.

I believe split is very important for safety because of a knock analysis Mazda did in one of their research papers. They found that knock tends to be concentrated in the trailing portion of the combustion chamber. Knock is common in this area because of squish zones--squish zones are concentrated areas of air/fuel mixture. Piston engines have squish zones as well.

elwood

iTrader: (1)

Thanks again. I'll make the adjustments.