Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

Awesome! Ever get any feedback from Marc as to how well the engine is holding up? Any compression numbers after full break in or after some decent mileage?

Does it make sense to use new housings($800 sheesh) and coating them in cermet or is using used housings the way to go since coating costs about as much as a new housing and it will have a nice new cermet surface anyway?

Oh and when you say cermet coated everything what does that include? Rotor housings, side housings, rotor faces anything else?

Heres an interesting question. Say you have a fully coated engine and you ping it once and the seals survive, is it possible though that the detonation could crack and flake off a piece of the cermet which then takes out a seal? I think I remmember reading somewhere that the cermet coating process bonds the cermet very well to the housing so maybe it wouldn't. But have you ever heard of cermet flaking at all even after detonation?

Any thoughts on Cryo treatment? Or even cryo treatment with cermet?

Blake

I am sure there are gains to be had with a streetport, particularly if you don't mind adding a little overlap, but the ports are already quite large. We streetported a turbo-RENESIS engine, but no NA ones yet. With the engines still under warrantee, it will be quite some time before we get to play with them in large enough volumes to really experiment with port shapes and timing.

Blake

I haven't heard anything lately, but it's probably because it is just chugging along fine. This was a motor for his personal Rotary Truck. If you are coming to Sevenstock, Marc will be there and have a table set up with all the info and parts samples. Good opportunity to talk to him about the stuff.

Used is probably the best bang for the buck. Cermet is pretty thick (about .020, IIRC), so the housings are machined down regardless. They can't save the really ugly housings, but litely scratched or chrome-flaked housings are salvagable.

In Marc's case, it was rotor housings, side housings and rotor faces, with NRS ceramic apex seals.

I've never seen that happen.

Cryogenic treatment works well, but it's not always cost effective. Mainly, we like cryo'ing the oil control rings. Bearings are also a good idea on the high-hp race engines. The rest is generally not worth the cost for the benefit. We can cryo all the major components of an engine for about $500. Just the oil control rings is about $40. If you Cermet-coat the engine components, there is no point in cryo treating them too.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

So just how deep is too deep to be salvagable on the housings? When I talked with someone from JHB they said they just machined it down until it was even. I'm just asking because on parts of the edges of my housings there is a noticable groove where the chrome is gone, something like the thickness of my thumb nail or so.

Blake

I would definitely defer to JHB on that question, but that does not sound bad to me.

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

Mr. Blake

I have very carefully read over and over your explanation of the cermet coating process and of the different apex seals.

1) what are the effects of cryo-treating apex seals besides them becoming somewhat stronger(am i wrong on this?): metallic and ceramic

2) what are some pro's and cons on cryo-treating engine parts? as i am very much in the dark of the treatment and have only heard that it makes engines much more tolerable to wear particularly extending engine life somewhat.

3) I have heard theories about making torque on the 13Bs. what is your personal experience on making low-end torque on a turbo 13B?

I applaud you.
i appreciate your abundance of knowledge on the rotary and appreciate it even more that you are extending your knowledge to everyone on this forum.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

I couldn't agree more.

Blake

Well, they don't get stronger per se; just wear a bit slower. I can't think of any reason to cryo-treat ceramic apex seals and the metallics are marginal candidates as well.

Yes, cryo-treating engine parts helps reduce wear. It's not miraculous but it does work. The real catch is the cost/benefit analysis. For the cost, the benefit does not make it a no-brainer. The highest wear parts of the engine will last a good 100K+ already, with proper maintenance and absence of abuse. At that kind of mileage, you are balancing the risk of losing a soft seal, which would cause you to tear it apart and rebuild it anyway.

That's a pretty broad question. There is not much having to do with the engine directly, other than port timing and how well the compression seals seal. New rotor housings do wonders, of course. Ceramic seals with stronger springs reduce leakage on the major axis, where the seals are most extended and the pressure differential the greatest. But the greatest effect on a turbo motor will be how well the turbo is matched to the engine and performance goals. For low end torque, you obviously want something quick spooling. I suppose I should also mention the possible use of high-compression rotors. We have used up to 9.7:1 rotors in an FD with 670rwhp, but it is a delicate setup.

Rotory Revalution

a silly question but what would you recomend for internal parts cleaning when doing a rebuild also this is a little off the general topic. do u carry master rebuild kits and at what price.

Blake

Everything requires a different cleaning process. Here at the shop, for most parts we start cleaning with a hot water parts washer, which is very expensive but environmentally safe and very, very effective. From there, we take other measure which are more parts-specific. The Side Housings (aka plates), we glass bead, which is like sand blasting with tiny glass particles. You can also glass bead the outsides of the rotor housings if you plan to re-use them. Rotors are the toughest part. Those we start by scraping the seals grooves free of carbon. For side seals, you can use an old side seal as a scraper. For Apex seals, we use a modified file that perfectly fits the groove. We have a little brass brush that takes care of the corner seal hole. Finally, we wire brush the faces of the rotors, but you have to be really careful not to let the bristles catch the edges of the apex seal grooves or they will get rounded off before you know it. We also use brake wash (alcohol) and -- as little as possible -- carb cleaner. Carb cleaner is very effective, but as a shop we have to be careful about environmental and safety issues. Carb cleaner is very bad for both. For the DIYer, however, I can't think of a more powerful tool. You can get buckets of it and dip the parts. Just keep it away from or use sparingly with aluminum. Obviously, don't get it on the bearings either.

As for offering rebuild kits, yes we do. I haven't put much of anything on the website yet, apart from an FD kit, but I can certainly do so for any rotary engine. The best thing to do is call me on the phone and I can talk you through all the options. Everything we offer is a Mazda OEM part, except for our own optional Heavy Duty water seals and NRS ceramic apex seals. No aftermarket metallic apex seals or Viton oil control o-rings, all of which which we have found to be exceptionally poor substitutes for the real thing. If you would like a quote, call me at (503) 233-3878 during business hours.

SuphaG

iTrader: (10)

I was wondering, if you use ceramic apex seals, will it cause the apex seal slot of the rotor to wear at a faster rate than if you used oem apex seals?

Blake

No.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Blake,

Why do so many people increase overlap on turbocharged rotaries?

Blake

Simple. Advancing the opening timing of the intake port gives you a head start filling the chamber, gets the intake charge moving sooner (think inertia), and what boost is blown out the exhaust port scours the chamber of all residual exhaust. All of this adds up to better Volumetric Efficiency. Also consider that if you are limited in how far you can retard the closing timing, the only way to add Duration is to advance the opening.

The downside to adding overlap on a turbo motor is that you lose some boost out the tailpipe at lower RPM. So, perhaps you bolt on a bigger turbo and run higher boost, but that means lag and a spikey powerband. The farther you go, the bigger the tradeoffs.

Personally, I like a little more overlap on a turbo motor than the stock ports, but I don't like bridgeports on turbo motors. Too many people think that if a little is good, more is better. Please. I'm not saying there are not certain potential gains that can potentially be advantageous in limited circumstances, but you can do a LOT with a nice streetport with hardly any tradeoffs and it's foolish to tread farther for such monumental tradeoffs...unless you are racing for money and your goals are very, very, very limited, etc. That's just my opinion. People do all kinds of foolish (IMHO) things for a big peak HP number or because it seems cool (extreeeeeeme duuuuuuude!) or whatever. Not my style.

90% of the time, if not more, I believe bridgeport turbo engines are all about ego and not results. Perhaps I'm not being fair, but opinions rarely are. I also have no problem with people who admit their ego trips, just as I don't begrudge those who keep their cars totally stock or those that put $10,000 into their car stereos. Do what turns you on. I'm just more of a bang-for-the-buck and streetable performance guy.

Quicker10u

First off, I have heard good things about Pineapple..Keep up the good work..As a friend of Rick Engman (Jim Downing's engine builder) I have done a few rebuilds myself. However, I have always wondered what kind of porting is availible for the 6 port motors. Is it worth the time and effort? Mazdatrix flat out won't do it and really won't give me an answer other than saying it's not worth it and Rick is too busy with Jim's Motors to really even consider thinking about it. I am looking at picking up a GTUs shortly and getting a spare S4 6 port motor to play with...What would you suggest?...Thanks in advance for your reply..

Quicker10u

Re-post

Blake

The 6-port motors can achieve great things with a nice streetport. 160-175 HP to the wheels is not uncommon, but we have seen as high as 189.9 RWHP on a large streetport S5 engine with Stage II oil mods, our 6-port inserts, full exhaust, S-AFC, etc. I can post the dyno sheet if you are interested.

Quicker10u

Thanks for your reply..Now are there any difference in S4-S5 Motors when it comes to rebuilds?..Are they internally different, or is it just the external (Intake etc) that changed?

Those are impressive numbers!..I would love to see a graph..This forum is a very useful tool. Thanks again..

Blake

The S5 rotors are lighter and higher compression (9.7:1), no EGR, and a slightly different leading spark plug location. Externally, there is the intake, of course, an electronic OMP, and a more advanced ECU.

No problem. This is a dyno sheet from a happy customer who thought we might like to see it. To be honest, it looks almost too good to be true. That torque curve is unbelievable. I have no reason to think it's not true, based on the unassuming nature of the customer and the reputation of the dyno operator, but everyone in the industry knows that dyno readings are not always worth the paper they are printed on. I would have expected to see something around 175-180, but 190 is really, really up there. Anyway, draw your own conclusions.

Again, this is an S4 car with an S5 engine, large streetport, 6-port inserts, oil mods, S-AFC, full Racing Beat exhaust.

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

^wow and thats on a Mustang Dyno, aren't those notorious for reading like 10-20% lower than the actual power? Thats impressive for an NA.

Blake what are your thoughts on Beveling rotors?

Blake

Beveling the rotor edges is one way to advance the opening and/or retard the closing timing of the intake ports. We've done it for many years on certain race engines. There are some good reasons to do it, but there is one MAJOR reason not to: a broken apex seal will not only cost you a rotor and rotor housing, but likely also both side housings of the affected rotor. Pieces get trapped and draged under the side of the rotor, grinding deep furrows in the side housings. I think Mazda is learning this the hard way on the RX-8s. The RX-8 also suffers in that respect by not having the exhaust port in the rotor housing, where the pieces can at least escape, instead of tubling 'round and 'round playing havoc. Anyway, I would not recommend it unless you have deep pockets and you were out of other options for advancing/retarding the intake timing.

Dan_s_young

iTrader: (1)

First of all I would like to say this is an awesome thread!!

I have a few questions about the setup im building and am looking for a few suggestions. I am building a Turbo S5 motor, and my goal is to get 400-450 RWHP out of it, im going to streetport the engine, and im going to be using a 60-1 turbo, microtech LT10s, HKS wastegate, greddy turbo manifold, HKS SSQV bov, HKS FMIC, etc etc etc. And this is all going into my widebody FB which is intended to be a streetable car when it is completed.

My questions are about the engine im going to build for it.
Im going to purchase a S5 core and I plan on tearing it down, buying new S4 rotors, new S5 housings, all OEM seals, etc. What is your opinion on high tensile strength dowel pins, for 500 hp at the flywheel is it really worth it? Is there a place you recommend getting porting templates from? At what horsepower level would you recommend hardened stationary gears? Would you recommend doing any oil pump modifications? I was thinking about going with a oil pan baffel as well. Im interested to hear your suggestion for engine modifications for a horsepower goal like this.

Thank you I really appreciate your advise!
Dan_s_young

Blake

Sounds like a fun project. Hope you intend to run race gas or at least a blend. I can sell you porting templates (being made right now). Oil mods with that setup will be very important. Not only do you need more pressure but also more volume. Lot of tricks there, but if I told you I'd have to kill you. Our FC Aluminum Oil pan would be a big bonus, as it holds more oil, has lots of baffling, a "windage" tray (horizontal baffle) and the added stiffness helps preserve your bearings. Another good thing would be our Dual EGT Kit, which tells you the Exhaust Gas Temperature of both rotors simultaneously, so you can balance the combustion...Air/Fuel Ratio only gives you the *average* between the rotors, which can be dangerous to rely upon. Finally, I will mention that we have the capability to modify an FD engine to bolt straight into a 2nd gen. We just did one and it added about $500 to the cost of the rebuild, but the FD core is a much better basis for a high HP engine.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Blake, you said your testing NRS re-chroming currently. What kind of price points and advantages/disadvantages do you see to re-chroming verses the cermet?

Blake

Re-chroming will be far cheaper than ceramic coating and is the secret to turning piles of worn rotor housings into gold. We have pallets of rotor housings that we've been hording over the years for just such an eventuality. Trust us, if there were a proven re-chroming method at anything like a reasonable price, we would jump at it wit both feet. As it is, most of the options don't last anything like long enough at this point. But the NRS results are very promising to date...we just need more time and miles to put our stamp of approval on it. It's a lot like our Heavy Duty Water Seals...we tested those suckers for 7 years in multiple engines on the track and street before we ever sold one to a customer. We are world-class skeptics, having learned to be such after all these years of dissapointment at other potential cost-saving solutions that did not pan out in the long run. New FD rotor housings retail for over $800 each. If we could re-chrome worn out ones for less, we could save people money and make a lot of money doing it. That's a big motivator to keep looking, but due process is required.