Ryany

I'm looking at a 13b turbo that the previous owner had in a sandrail & killed by overboost. The engine supposedly has less than 2 hours on it after it was originally built & installed by a shop in San Diego. The engine has now been sitting in his garage for more than a year since it stopped running and it won't turn over. I'm assuming that it blew a coolant seal but I'm concerned that there may be more damage than that once I get it apart. It is a complete, still assembled engine with a T04B35 turbo & Haltech engine management system with all the sensors, non-intercooled, Supertrapp exhaust, etc. The owner says that it was supposed to be a 400+ hp engine.

I'm looking at this engine to transplant into an Opel GT, so the fact that it came out of a sandrail and can be installed essentially standalone is a plus. Obviously it'll need some modification to fit, so I'm thinking of it more as an organized collection of parts that have already shown that they will work together. I'm mechanically inclined & have rebuilt many engines over the years, but I'm new to rotaries. It'll be a learning curve to rebuild but I'm looking forward to it, knowing that I can take my time & do it right.

The question is, what do the knowlegable members of this forum think it's worth? Any input would be appreciated.

Ryany

Any ideas?

I don't know much more about the engine as I didn't have much time to go over it & I'm not familiar enough with rotaries to know what to look for. I'm assuming it has larger injectors, but I don't know for sure. The engine supposedly overboosted when the wastegate stuck, but this info is from the owner who's diagnosis I don't think I can trust.

gio64

iTrader: (1)

Hi, I'm not the best person around here to answer that question, however, this is what I think:
If it doesn't turn over, I think there's more than a coolant seal that went wrong. As a matter of fact, I don't think that a blown coolant seal would stop the engine from working 2 hours after it was fired up for the first time.
If it overboosted, it is very likely that it blew an apex seal. Which I believe won't let it turn as its pieces are jamming between the rotor and the rotor housings.
If that's the case, some of those pieces might have also found their way into your turbo and screwed up the impeller, which means the turbo is shot as well.
Best case scenario, the turbo is good, one apex seal is shot, one rotor housing is as well and you can still re-use the rotor. Prices for those items vary largely based on what you are going to get.
I don't know about the price as it sounds like there are some electronics and other things that might bring the value up. I believe that until you take it apart, you won't have any certainty of what is in there. You could end up with an excentric shaft, 2 rotors, 1 rotor housing, the side housings and that's it...
Wait for somebody with better knowledge and experience to say something though...

hanman

I think it is worth very little more than the Haltech is worth by itself. That's at least with the limited information that you have posted. Things that would make it worth more are:
1. Inspection of the turbo, and if it is ok or not, because gio64's assessment above is correct. A blown apex seal could have fubared the turbo. And I agree with him, it sounds like an apex seal went versus a coolant seal.
2. What new parts were used in the original rebuild? New rotor housings? If so, you probably have one very good rotor housing. But the other one may be trashed if an apex seal went.

mpaine

in my opinion geo is right on this one, or at least thats what i was thinking would be wrong also

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

I highly doubt it blew a coolant seal in that short amount of time, but it can happen if any motor is not properly set up for cooling, especially a rotary engine. More than likely an apex or side seal is stuck, that's why it won't turn over.


You never mentioned how much it's selling for? You said it has a haltech, but there's many versions of a Haltech ECU. A blown motor is not worth that much obviously, but the turbo setup can be worth something. I am a cheapskate and an ex used car salesman, so I haggle on everything.

Ryany

The Haltech is an E6 model. I'm probably going to go take another look at it today, including pulling off the turbo to see if it's toast. is there anything that I should look for when inspecting the turbo? I'm sure that any damage to the impeller from foreign objects should be obvious, and I'll look for play in the shaft, but is there anything else I should look for? BTW the turbo is a T04B35, p-trim, .69 turbine, .60 compressor. I pulled the model # when I looked at it the first time and called a local turbo shop to get the details.
When I look at the engine again, I'm going to see if I can get part #'s off of the injectors also to see what size they are.
The guy wants $1000 for the entire thing, which sounds way too high to me. From what I've been able to find, a used Haltech is about $500 or so. Everything else will depend on how badly it's screwed up.

Ukrarex

iTrader: (1)

i think it depends on what ur going to do with the engine after u buy it. Because a master rebuild kit is around $900, plus u dont know what condition is the motor internally. Personally i think it wasnt broken in so the seal are probably in a horrible condition. Not worth my $1000

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

Is this an REW motor? RE? S4? S5? What exact motor is it?

Ryany

I don't know what engine it is other than 13b, and neither does the owner. He's not mechanically inclined at all and doesn't know any details about the engine. He bought the engine from a shop & had it installed in his new sandrail - he didn't turn a wrench at all. I'll post some photos & more info after I go to look at it again.

As far as what I'm going to do with it - it will eventually be going into an Opel GT (perfect marriage - lightweight car & lightweight engine) to replace the original heavy & underpowered cast iron engine. The engine is already set up with no emissions equipment & is essentially self-contained, so wiring will be minimal to get it running. The biggest issue is that it's set up to be facing backwards in a rear-engined sandrail configuration, so the existing turbo piping will interfere with the firewall when it's installed facing forward in a front-engined setup. The turbo inlet faces the flywheel end of the engine & the exhaust exits towards the front of the engine, so those will need major reworking. I'm planning to add a FMIC to help with intake temperatures, but space may be an issue so I'll have to decide that at a later time. I'm hoping that a turbo 5-speed will handle the power without being destoyed. I haven't decided what to do with the rear axle yet. The GT is set up with a solid axle in the rear, but would never handle the power of the turbo motor. I need to find an axle with disc brakes and a limited slip, but I don't really want to have the weight of something like a narrowed Ford 9". I need to do more research in that area.

Thanks for all the responses, everyone has given me lots of useful info. Hopefully I can get enough more details about the engine to decide whether it's buying or not. I'm really looking forward to tearing it apart & learning how to rebuild it, so I hope it works out.

chemicool

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't buy it. Best bet find another engine that either runs or at least turns over that is cheap and complete then you can add your own engine management. Hell, you could go wild with that Opel and throw a 3 rotor in it. Damn that would be scary. It's not likely he is going to sell it for 1000 to anyone so if you're patient you can get him down in price.

fd3spr0

not worth it imo

Ryany

Ok, I just got back from looking at the motor again & have a little more info on it. The current owner bought the sandrail with this engine in it. It was rated at 475hp.

I pulled the turbo off & couldn't see any signs of damage to the exhaust side - no signs of foreign objects bouncing around or anything like that. There is a small amount of side play in the turbo shaft - I'm not sure how much is too much.

I was wrong about the ECM also, it's a Haltech F10X, not an E6. He's got the complete harness with all the sensors & stuff.

The engine does not turn over, but I pulled all the plugs and found no signs of damage to any of them - they all looked like they came out of a good running engine.

With the photos I've attached, hopefully someone can tell me more about it. I don't know what the OMP looks like, but I didn't see anything on there that looks like it could be one. The owner said that he was never told to use premix, just to use the highest octane he could find.

Ryany

Here's a few more photos.

Ryany

And a few more:

kejames

Sounds like a huge waste of time and money. I would be very careful about buying any engine that doesn't turn over. If he is too lazy too yank the turbo and haltec and sell them separate there must be some thing wrong with one or both.

KJ

kejames

BTW there has got too be more than 2 hours of run time on that engine. way too dirty even sitting 2 years to be only run two hours. Does the turbo spin freely?

KJ

polito Racing

iTrader: (1)

1,000 bucks for a blown S4 motor is way too much money, just so you have an idea i paid 300 bucks for the last one i bought for just the block, no manifolds or alternator, turbo or other crap. the engine spun freely and I was able to look into the exhaust ports and made sure the rotors and housings were still good. it had only lost compression on the rear rotor, if that gives you an idea. I cant see the primary injectors on the pics but the secondaries are the factory low impedance 550cc injectors on an S4 Turbo engine (tan ones), i dont know anyone that would put larger injectors on the primaries than what they have on the secondaries so that should answer your question about the injectors. about the 400+ HP ive never seen anyone pushing that ammount of power with stock injectors plus ive never seen anyone trying to do this or running a turbo like that without any air cooling capabilities. you can get a haltech E6 for probably 100 bucks but it is an obsolete ECU so i wouldnt even advice you to buy that. my advice is dont buy that engine you would be just wasting your money. if the engine wont turn over it means some massive destruction must have happened in there, Im assuming with the low runtime it has a bearing probably went which means lots of damage in there. theres plenty of people selling 13BT's blocks arround here try to find you a better deal.

good luck

rowtareh?

iTrader: (1)

Rotary motors can run one time and blow up. It does happen during tuning.

Ryany

The questions I still have are :

Is this a 4 or 6-port engine & how can you tell from the exterior of the engine?

Polito racing says it's an S4 engine - how can you tell and what would the advantages/disadvantages be with this engine?

How much play in the turbo is too much?

If there's no OMP & the owner wasn't premixing, has there been additional damage done to the rotor & housing that weren't damaged by whatever failed?


The Big Question - What's it worth?

ScottsdaleDan

I wouldnt buy it, sounds like someone is trying to recoup their losses at your expense!

fd3spr0

250

jfletch1787@gmail.com

1000 is too high. I'd go with the 250 also

Ryany

I'm thinking that even if the motor has no reusable parts, I would still be buying a decent turbo & manifold, a Haltech injection computer with all the sensors, a wastegate, blow-off valve, alternator, distibutor, flywheel, clutch and a lot of usable miscellaneous small parts (nuts, bolts, brackets, etc.). All I would need is to find a good running TII and combine the best of the two engines.