What is this thing?
04-16-12, 05:08 PM
#1
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What is this thing?
Basically i can't figure out what that little green thing is, and i need to replace it because it seems to have broken, i tried calling atkins and thought they might explain it to me, but they didn't know what i was talking about. So yeah haha.
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04-16-12, 10:57 PM
#2
It's a vacuum delay valve for the outer set of throttle plates. But the odds are the diaphragm in the actuator it runs to is no longer working, so it's not too important. Put a vacuum hand pump on the actuator nipple, and see if the arm moves the plates. They fail in the open position, so it's not hurting anything. When functional, the system helps smooth out quick throttle input.
04-17-12, 12:03 AM
#3
LOPEY IDLE
GET RID OF IT! ALL OF YOUR EMISSIONS **** CAN GO IT IS USELLES JUNK. I mean unless u need it to pass emissions.I see you got rid of the acv thats a start. I think its stupied that they put all this manual **** on are intakes to control things the ecu could probably control. I have a whole box full of that **** I call it my get the F@%# off my car box!
Last edited by sideways-FC; 04-17-12 at 12:07 AM.
04-17-12, 12:56 AM
#5
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Just so you know, your EGR is one of the most important pieces of equipment on your rotary. Unless you have a JDM or Standalone ECU, but you can go ahead and remove yours sideways. When you blow up an engine cause of pinging though, don't come crying on here.
Dont mean to thread jack, just want to correct the useless crap he posted.
Also RotaryRocket is right about it being a vacuum delay. Although I'm not sure what its for.
On S5s we have a little Dashpot to prevent the throttle slamming closed. I know there is a little check valve that looks like that, and a vacuum delay that looks like that.
They come from the Thermal Wax. I think the delay is for the choke. Not sure though.
Dont mean to thread jack, just want to correct the useless crap he posted.
Also RotaryRocket is right about it being a vacuum delay. Although I'm not sure what its for.
On S5s we have a little Dashpot to prevent the throttle slamming closed. I know there is a little check valve that looks like that, and a vacuum delay that looks like that.
They come from the Thermal Wax. I think the delay is for the choke. Not sure though.
Last edited by k4killer; 04-17-12 at 01:01 AM.
04-17-12, 07:55 AM
#6
LOPEY IDLE
I know its not related to emissions. and I know what all the stuff I took off does and after removing it I see no difference in how the car runs. exept for the third throtle plate we are talking about that should actualy stay in place unless you are running a stand alone thats why I left that on my black rx7 for now. I belive in makeing things as simple as posibule!
04-17-12, 07:57 AM
#7
LOPEY IDLE
Just so you know, your EGR is one of the most important pieces of equipment on your rotary. Unless you have a JDM or Standalone ECU, but you can go ahead and remove yours sideways. When you blow up an engine cause of pinging though, don't come crying on here.
Dont mean to thread jack, just want to correct the useless crap he posted.
Also RotaryRocket is right about it being a vacuum delay. Although I'm not sure what its for.
On S5s we have a little Dashpot to prevent the throttle slamming closed. I know there is a little check valve that looks like that, and a vacuum delay that looks like that.
They come from the Thermal Wax. I think the delay is for the choke. Not sure though.
Dont mean to thread jack, just want to correct the useless crap he posted.
Also RotaryRocket is right about it being a vacuum delay. Although I'm not sure what its for.
On S5s we have a little Dashpot to prevent the throttle slamming closed. I know there is a little check valve that looks like that, and a vacuum delay that looks like that.
They come from the Thermal Wax. I think the delay is for the choke. Not sure though.
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04-17-12, 08:58 AM
#8
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GET RID OF IT! ALL OF YOUR EMISSIONS **** CAN GO IT IS USELLES JUNK. I mean unless u need it to pass emissions.I see you got rid of the acv thats a start. I think its stupied that they put all this manual **** on are intakes to control things the ecu could probably control. I have a whole box full of that **** I call it my get the F@%# off my car box!
The tertiary set of throttle plates has absolutely nothing to do with emissions. It's only purpose in life is to prevent the car from going WOT when the engine is cold. The valve is supplied vacuum by the vacuum thermal valve until the wax in the valve melts, then it is spring tension in the actuator that holds the throttles open. Again, nothing to do with emissions.
Telling people to just tear of emissions stuff because it is "useless junk" the kind of advice that leads people to actually do that. Then there's a bunch of posts while they try to troubleshoot the mess their car has become, and then finally, the car is sold or scrapped because "those damn rotarys never run right".
As for why the ECU can't control this stuff. Please explain to me how the ECU would prevent a driver from pushing the pedal down to the floor while the coolant temp is still -20C. This is long before the days of fly by wire, and if the ECU was to cut fuel or spark, that would generate nothing but "my car is broken!" claims to Mazda. No, better to just sneakily prevent those throttles from opening so that the lack of power is attributed by the user to "oh, it's just warming up". Because most people still believe that a car has to "warm up". And if you knew about the history of the L-Jetronic, you'll know it was first used on the GSL-SE and was simply tweaked for the 2nd gen. Look at any L-Jetronic car and you'll see far weirder stuff than tertiary throttles. For example, cold start injectors, thermo-time switches, or electrically heated cold start idle valves. In fact, it may help you to look at the L-Jetronic manual so that you don't make such silly statements in the future:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BO...n%20Manual.pdf
They come from the Thermal Wax. I think the delay is for the choke. Not sure though.
04-17-12, 10:16 AM
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Thanks for the info Aaron, learn something new from you every other day. I'm still so used to piston engines, where if you remove egr you can cause loads of overheating and pinging issues unless you can tune for the extra fuel.
By choke I was talking about those extra throttle plates. Not really sure what to call them, and they work a lot like a choke so....
By choke I was talking about those extra throttle plates. Not really sure what to call them, and they work a lot like a choke so....
04-17-12, 03:07 PM
#10
LOPEY IDLE
Please don't give terrible advice like this.
The tertiary set of throttle plates has absolutely nothing to do with emissions. It's only purpose in life is to prevent the car from going WOT when the engine is cold. The valve is supplied vacuum by the vacuum thermal valve until the wax in the valve melts, then it is spring tension in the actuator that holds the throttles open. Again, nothing to do with emissions.
Telling people to just tear of emissions stuff because it is "useless junk" the kind of advice that leads people to actually do that. Then there's a bunch of posts while they try to troubleshoot the mess their car has become, and then finally, the car is sold or scrapped because "those damn rotarys never run right".
As for why the ECU can't control this stuff. Please explain to me how the ECU would prevent a driver from pushing the pedal down to the floor while the coolant temp is still -20C. This is long before the days of fly by wire, and if the ECU was to cut fuel or spark, that would generate nothing but "my car is broken!" claims to Mazda. No, better to just sneakily prevent those throttles from opening so that the lack of power is attributed by the user to "oh, it's just warming up". Because most people still believe that a car has to "warm up". And if you knew about the history of the L-Jetronic, you'll know it was first used on the GSL-SE and was simply tweaked for the 2nd gen. Look at any L-Jetronic car and you'll see far weirder stuff than tertiary throttles. For example, cold start injectors, thermo-time switches, or electrically heated cold start idle valves. In fact, it may help you to look at the L-Jetronic manual so that you don't make such silly statements in the future:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BO...n%20Manual.pdf
No issue with removing the EGR. The rotary has so much natural EGR that Mazda scrapped EGR for S5, and only S4s and a few other random rotarys ever had EGR.
Choke?
The tertiary set of throttle plates has absolutely nothing to do with emissions. It's only purpose in life is to prevent the car from going WOT when the engine is cold. The valve is supplied vacuum by the vacuum thermal valve until the wax in the valve melts, then it is spring tension in the actuator that holds the throttles open. Again, nothing to do with emissions.
Telling people to just tear of emissions stuff because it is "useless junk" the kind of advice that leads people to actually do that. Then there's a bunch of posts while they try to troubleshoot the mess their car has become, and then finally, the car is sold or scrapped because "those damn rotarys never run right".
As for why the ECU can't control this stuff. Please explain to me how the ECU would prevent a driver from pushing the pedal down to the floor while the coolant temp is still -20C. This is long before the days of fly by wire, and if the ECU was to cut fuel or spark, that would generate nothing but "my car is broken!" claims to Mazda. No, better to just sneakily prevent those throttles from opening so that the lack of power is attributed by the user to "oh, it's just warming up". Because most people still believe that a car has to "warm up". And if you knew about the history of the L-Jetronic, you'll know it was first used on the GSL-SE and was simply tweaked for the 2nd gen. Look at any L-Jetronic car and you'll see far weirder stuff than tertiary throttles. For example, cold start injectors, thermo-time switches, or electrically heated cold start idle valves. In fact, it may help you to look at the L-Jetronic manual so that you don't make such silly statements in the future:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/BO...n%20Manual.pdf
No issue with removing the EGR. The rotary has so much natural EGR that Mazda scrapped EGR for S5, and only S4s and a few other random rotarys ever had EGR.
Choke?
Last edited by sideways-FC; 04-17-12 at 03:09 PM.
04-18-12, 11:00 AM
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I apologize then. Anyways, thanks for the help, i managed to just epoxy it up and the air flow through it seems to be fine. All i have to do now is fix my leaky injector and it should be drive able.
04-20-12, 09:50 AM
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Knowing the history of how a system was developed helps greatly when making judgments about that system. The L-jetronic was used in many, many vehicles, not just the 2nd gens. So Mazda had some limitations when customizing it for the RX-7. It is also among the first mass produced totally digital EFI controllers, so even Bosch was learning lessons along the way.
Now with a standalone, you can lose the thermowax, ASV and dashpot as the ECU can use the BAC to completely control the idle speed and emulate a dashpot.
and the sputering it cozes when you stabe the throtle after you get rid of it you would think they would tune the ecu so it gets enough fuel that it dosnt hesitate like that.
I just dont like stock stuff I like to simplify stuff as much as possibul. dont listen to me these are just my opinions!
Tertiary throttles, often confused and referred to as "secondary throttles" which isn't true. The secondary throttles are mechanically activated by a lever on the primary throttle plate. The stock Mazda throttle body is two stage, first opening a single plate to feed the primary ports and then opening the secondary plates to feed the secondary ports on the end irons. This maintains air velocity and more conservative port timing at low throttles.
04-20-12, 12:49 PM
#13
LOPEY IDLE
Because Mazda was working within the limits of the ECU. The stock programming does not allow the BAC enough authority to control the idle to that degree. Hence the thermowax (carried over from the GSL-SE) and the ASV (to activate the 3K cold idle and idle up when power steering is used).
Knowing the history of how a system was developed helps greatly when making judgments about that system. The L-jetronic was used in many, many vehicles, not just the 2nd gens. So Mazda had some limitations when customizing it for the RX-7. It is also among the first mass produced totally digital EFI controllers, so even Bosch was learning lessons along the way.
Now with a standalone, you can lose the thermowax, ASV and dashpot as the ECU can use the BAC to completely control the idle speed and emulate a dashpot.
Remember that Mazda made the car to pass emissions of the time. They can't just hammer fuel into the car. Plus, with a 1/4 range TPS, they have limited accel pump options, as well as it takes the AFM a split second to respond. And part of the reason those extra throttles are in place on TIIs is to prevent the air velocity in the manifold from dropping like a stone when the throttle is snapped open. Of course the NA tertiary throttles work in the opposite way. They are open once the engine is warm.
Problem is, this being the new user tech forum, people are liable to listen without understanding the consequences.
Tertiary throttles, often confused and referred to as "secondary throttles" which isn't true. The secondary throttles are mechanically activated by a lever on the primary throttle plate. The stock Mazda throttle body is two stage, first opening a single plate to feed the primary ports and then opening the secondary plates to feed the secondary ports on the end irons. This maintains air velocity and more conservative port timing at low throttles.
Knowing the history of how a system was developed helps greatly when making judgments about that system. The L-jetronic was used in many, many vehicles, not just the 2nd gens. So Mazda had some limitations when customizing it for the RX-7. It is also among the first mass produced totally digital EFI controllers, so even Bosch was learning lessons along the way.
Now with a standalone, you can lose the thermowax, ASV and dashpot as the ECU can use the BAC to completely control the idle speed and emulate a dashpot.
Remember that Mazda made the car to pass emissions of the time. They can't just hammer fuel into the car. Plus, with a 1/4 range TPS, they have limited accel pump options, as well as it takes the AFM a split second to respond. And part of the reason those extra throttles are in place on TIIs is to prevent the air velocity in the manifold from dropping like a stone when the throttle is snapped open. Of course the NA tertiary throttles work in the opposite way. They are open once the engine is warm.
Problem is, this being the new user tech forum, people are liable to listen without understanding the consequences.
Tertiary throttles, often confused and referred to as "secondary throttles" which isn't true. The secondary throttles are mechanically activated by a lever on the primary throttle plate. The stock Mazda throttle body is two stage, first opening a single plate to feed the primary ports and then opening the secondary plates to feed the secondary ports on the end irons. This maintains air velocity and more conservative port timing at low throttles.
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