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Trailing 2 timing way off...

Old 06-10-12 | 04:38 PM
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Ok I checked the thermo sensor. I just replied in my other post to keep it in the same category thread. "pin 21 voltages to high when cold 0 when warm"
Old 06-10-12 | 04:49 PM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by Vert88t2
I'll check out that relay idea. It could be flooding when I turn on the fuel pump (by switch) I can hear the injectors spraying pretty hard and it shows 40lbs of fuel pressure but once the car is started it shows 36lbs.
So you have a fuel cut switch? The fuel pump normally will not turn on w/key to on unless the fuel check connector is jumpered or the AFM flap is open or the engine is running. Under any other conditions it should not be on. So you need to figure what's going on here.
Old 06-11-12 | 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by satch
So you have a fuel cut switch? The fuel pump normally will not turn on w/key to on unless the fuel check connector is jumpered or the AFM flap is open or the engine is running. Under any other conditions it should not be on. So you need to figure what's going on here.
Yes I wired the switch so I know the pump is turning on.
Old 06-11-12 | 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by satch
So you have a fuel cut switch? The fuel pump normally will not turn on w/key to on unless the fuel check connector is jumpered or the AFM flap is open or the engine is running. Under any other conditions it should not be on. So you need to figure what's going on here.
And I was told by someone else that the pump doesn't kick on til the key is in the start position. Which is is it? On or start? That's why I wired it to a switch so I know that it's on or off
Old 06-11-12 | 10:47 AM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by Vert88t2
And I was told by someone else that the pump doesn't kick on til the key is in the start position. Which is is it? On or start? That's why I wired it to a switch so I know that it's on or off
It shouldn't turn on w/key to on unless the conditions are as previously explained.
Old 06-11-12 | 11:36 AM
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From: tulsa,ok.
The bottom line is w/respect to your switch is "how did you wire it." The role of this type of switch is to prevent the fuel from flowing in certain situations and not otherwise.
Old 06-11-12 | 12:57 PM
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considering it starts with starting fluid it does not sounds like a flooding issue but the reverse. the pump or injectors are not firing without assistance. if the pump is in fact pushing 40psi while cranking then you can move on to injectors and the trigger circuit, aka crank angle sensor and AFM.

next question is, does it run after priming with starting fluid on its own or does it only run while spraying starting fluid continuously? the latter tells us the injectors are not firing at all or you may possibly have one stuck closed and it is running on 1 rotor after firing.

Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-11-12 at 12:59 PM.
Old 06-11-12 | 04:05 PM
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OP said it will continue to run after using starter fluid and keep a 800 rpm idle. That makes me think fuel, air and spark are being metered well enough.

AFAIK, the only thing that changes during cranking is the amount of fuel being added. It ignores the AFM and uses a fixed cranking map as long as the key is in 'start'.

Can you get the car to start if you play with the throttle while cranking?
Your throttle body/plates may be out of adjustment and allowing too much/not enough air during cranking. Or you have a vacuum leak requiring more fuel (in the form of starter fluid) to get started. Kinda hard to tell from here.
Old 06-11-12 | 04:28 PM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
OP said it will continue to run after using starter fluid and keep a 800 rpm idle. That makes me think fuel, air and spark are being metered well enough.

AFAIK, the only thing that changes during cranking is the amount of fuel being added. It ignores the AFM and uses a fixed cranking map as long as the key is in 'start'.

Can you get the car to start if you play with the throttle while cranking?
Your throttle body/plates may be out of adjustment and allowing too much/not enough air during cranking. Or you have a vacuum leak requiring more fuel (in the form of starter fluid) to get started. Kinda hard to tell from here.
His Water Thermosensor reading as read at the ECU is way out of spec which creates a situation where the ECU uses a default setting that makes the ECU think the engine is warm, thus less fuel is used upon a cold start. This would help to explain some of the cold start problems, but not necessarily the warm start scenario.
Old 06-11-12 | 04:30 PM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
OP said it will continue to run after using starter fluid and keep a 800 rpm idle. That makes me think fuel, air and spark are being metered well enough.

AFAIK, the only thing that changes during cranking is the amount of fuel being added. It ignores the AFM and uses a fixed cranking map as long as the key is in 'start'.

Can you get the car to start if you play with the throttle while cranking?
Your throttle body/plates may be out of adjustment and allowing too much/not enough air during cranking. Or you have a vacuum leak requiring more fuel (in the form of starter fluid) to get started. Kinda hard to tell from here.
His Water Thermosensor reading as read at the ECU is way out of spec which creates a situation where the ECU uses a default setting that makes the ECU think the engine is warm, thus less fuel is used upon a cold start. This would help to explain some of the cold start problems, but not necessarily the warm start scenario.

Plus it's not self evident as to whether the fuel cut switch is wired or working properly.
Old 06-11-12 | 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
OP said it will continue to run after using starter fluid and keep a 800 rpm idle. That makes me think fuel, air and spark are being metered well enough.

AFAIK, the only thing that changes during cranking is the amount of fuel being added. It ignores the AFM and uses a fixed cranking map as long as the key is in 'start'.

Can you get the car to start if you play with the throttle while cranking?
Your throttle body/plates may be out of adjustment and allowing too much/not enough air during cranking. Or you have a vacuum leak requiring more fuel (in the form of starter fluid) to get started. Kinda hard to tell from here.
It won't start if I play with the throttle either. But when I spray it to start it I have to also pump the throttle to start it. I noticed when I drive it when I put the pedal to the midway point where I can feel the secondary's it sputters a bit. How would I put the throttle body to stock specs?
Old 06-11-12 | 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by satch
The bottom line is w/respect to your switch is "how did you wire it." The role of this type of switch is to prevent the fuel from flowing in certain situations and not otherwise.
All I did was find the power wire to the pump and hooked it to an on/off switch with an inline fuse.
Old 06-11-12 | 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by satch
His Water Thermosensor reading as read at the ECU is way out of spec which creates a situation where the ECU uses a default setting that makes the ECU think the engine is warm, thus less fuel is used upon a cold start. This would help to explain some of the cold start problems, but not necessarily the warm start scenario.
The sensor is to spec. But the voltages at the ecu are wack. I made a thread about it called "pin 21 voltages to high when cold 0 when warm"
Old 06-11-12 | 10:06 PM
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sounds like a faulty ECU to me, see if you can find another locally to borrow.
Old 06-11-12 | 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Karack
sounds like a faulty ECU to me, see if you can find another locally to borrow.
I have 2 ecu's both n332 87 t2 ecu's. One is rtek stage 1.7 other is stock. Both are good and I only know cause I have a buddy of mine with an 87 t2 that I tried both ecu's in his car and both are good.
Old 06-11-12 | 10:17 PM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Did you place the fuel cut switch in the Blue wire coming from the Circuit Opening Relay. It is important that the wire in the top row, far left position has voltage w/key to start at the Circuit Opening Relay. That is w/key to start. If it does not then the relay will not power the fuel pump w/key to start and thus the pump will not turn on w/key to start and the engine therefore does not receive fuel, which would explain why the car does not start on its own. This relay has two aspects. One is to provide voltage to the pump w/key to start while the other is to provide power to the pump w/key to on. These are two separate and distinct aspects.
Old 06-11-12 | 11:32 PM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by satch
Did you place the fuel cut switch in the Blue wire coming from the Circuit Opening Relay. It is important that the wire in the top row, far left position has voltage w/key to start at the Circuit Opening Relay. That is w/key to start. If it does not then the relay will not power the fuel pump w/key to start and thus the pump will not turn on w/key to start and the engine therefore does not receive fuel, which would explain why the car does not start on its own. This relay has two aspects. One is to provide voltage to the pump w/key to start while the other is to provide power to the pump w/key to on. These are two separate and distinct aspects.
This is w/the engine running and the key to on and not just w/key to on.
Old 06-12-12 | 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by satch
Did you place the fuel cut switch in the Blue wire coming from the Circuit Opening Relay. It is important that the wire in the top row, far left position has voltage w/key to start at the Circuit Opening Relay. That is w/key to start. If it does not then the relay will not power the fuel pump w/key to start and thus the pump will not turn on w/key to start and the engine therefore does not receive fuel, which would explain why the car does not start on its own. This relay has two aspects. One is to provide voltage to the pump w/key to start while the other is to provide power to the pump w/key to on. These are two separate and distinct aspects.
I'm gonna look at this better. I really did it half assed... I pulled the plug at the pump , ran a wire from the positive on the battery testing which wire in the plug gave it power, and then from there I plugged it back in and ran a switch to that power wire at the pump with an inline fuse. But I know when the switch is turned on the pump is turned on I can hear it turn on. That's why I wired the pump to a switch so that I know that it's on. So doesn't this pump wired to an on/off switch rule this theory out???
Old 06-12-12 | 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Vert88t2
I'm gonna look at this better. I really did it half assed... I pulled the plug at the pump , ran a wire from the positive on the battery testing which wire in the plug gave it power, and then from there I plugged it back in and ran a switch to that power wire at the pump with an inline fuse. But I know when the switch is turned on the pump is turned on I can hear it turn on. That's why I wired the pump to a switch so that I know that it's on. So doesn't this pump wired to an on/off switch rule this theory out???
The normal method for a fuel cut switch is to wire it inline on the Blue wire from the Circuit Opening Relay. You might want to remove your example and just check the relay based on how it is supposed to work. As noted, the Blue wire at the relay has power w/key to start. And when the car starts the same Blue wire would have voltage when the engine is running. And you don't have the fuel check connector jumpered do you?
Old 06-12-12 | 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Vert88t2
It won't start if I play with the throttle either. But when I spray it to start it I have to also pump the throttle to start it. I noticed when I drive it when I put the pedal to the midway point where I can feel the secondary's it sputters a bit. How would I put the throttle body to stock specs?
Here's the page from the FSM on throttle body adjustment. Doesn't sound like that is your issue though, so you may want to hold off on it.


What exactly is your setup?
S5 turbo engine: USDM or JDM?
What harness? And is it modded at all?
What injector resistance and do you still have the s4 resistor pack?
What AFM and pressure sensor are you using with the N332 ecu?
Old 06-12-12 | 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by satch
The normal method for a fuel cut switch is to wire it inline on the Blue wire from the Circuit Opening Relay. You might want to remove your example and just check the relay based on how it is supposed to work. As noted, the Blue wire at the relay has power w/key to start. And when the car starts the same Blue wire would have voltage when the engine is running. And you don't have the fuel check connector jumpered do you?
When I first got the car I didnt hear the pump prime itself. Which I now find out that's the way it is. So I wired it to work. So I gotta check the voltages at that relay cause it never started on its own for me before or after the switch. And honestly... I dont know where the fuel check connector is to know if it's jumped... Maybe they jumped it in the swap??? I don't know...
Old 06-12-12 | 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
Here's the page from the FSM on throttle body adjustment. Doesn't sound like that is your issue though, so you may want to hold off on it.


What exactly is your setup?
S5 turbo engine: USDM or JDM?
What harness? And is it modded at all?
What injector resistance and do you still have the s4 resistor pack?
ecu?
Jdm s5 turbo2 block.
The 88 n/a harness not Sure of mods.
Rc 550 primary and rc 750 secondary
No resistor pack there's a AEM 10 channel box for the low impedance injectors
The AFM is 87 t2 n332. Pressure sensor... I don't even know what that is... I know I'm very noob...
Old 06-12-12 | 12:42 AM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by Vert88t2
When I first got the car I didnt hear the pump prime itself. Which I now find out that's the way it is. So I wired it to work. So I gotta check the voltages at that relay cause it never started on its own for me before or after the switch. And honestly... I dont know where the fuel check connector is to know if it's jumped... Maybe they jumped it in the swap??? I don't know...
Near the passenger strut tower is the Emission harness which is the harness that is wired to the Boost Sensor. There is a Black rubber boot which covers a Yellow plug w/two wires. One wire is Brown and the other wire is Black. If the Blue wire from the relay is still connected to the fuel pump then the pump would turn on w/key to on if the jumper were in place, so if the pump does not turn on w/key to on then the connector is not jumpered.

The Boost/Pressure Sensor is bolted to the passenger strut tower and has a small vacuum hose running to it. It is rectangular and has one plug w/four wires.
Old 06-12-12 | 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by satch
If the Blue wire from the relay is still connected to the fuel pump then the pump would turn on w/key to on if the jumper were in place, so if the pump does not turn on w/key to on then the connector is not jumpered.
so when you say key to on do you mean at anytime when the key is "on" before and after cranking over? Or just after the engine starts and key lands back to "on"? And the goal here is to have it jumpered? And I'm still not quite sure what's actually jumpered? Sorry I know I'm way hard to deal with my Haynes manual is on order I'm waiting for it... I do this all on my phone so it's a real pain in the neck and the FSM won't load on it... Stupid smartphones...
Old 06-12-12 | 01:35 AM
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From: tulsa,ok.
Originally Posted by Vert88t2
so when you say key to on do you mean at anytime when the key is "on" before and after cranking over? Or just after the engine starts and key lands back to "on"? And the goal here is to have it jumpered? And I'm still not quite sure what's actually jumpered? Sorry I know I'm way hard to deal with my Haynes manual is on order I'm waiting for it... I do this all on my phone so it's a real pain in the neck and the FSM won't load on it... Stupid smartphones...
The check connector is jumpered when testing the fuel system otherwise it should not be jumpered. If the connector were jumpered it would turn the pump on w/just the key to on and engine off. And jumpering means running a bare wire at both ends so as to connect two separate wires together.

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