Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Car is an 86 GXL Automatic, no security, all stock. Was (possibly still am but that's irrelevant) going to sell the car, drove it (in good working condition) to where it now sits, and it was sitting about a month. Was going to jump in and take it around the other day, turned the key and... Nothing. There was the click sound that you usually get when you turn the key to 'Start', but the starter never engaged and turned over the motor.

I didn't think it was the battery, as even when the battery is really low it usually will at least try and turn over, but not at all here. Just to make sure, I recharged the battery and tried again, exactly the same results.

I tried checking the starter using a method found on the forums, using a wire going from the positive on the battery to the black/white wire where the blue connector with the jumper is attached to the black connector, and got nothing at all. I wasn't entirely sure which way it was supposed to go, so I tried with and without jumper, nothing either time. I assume this means a dead starter?

I'm hoping people can point me to other methods of checking or other theories on what the car is needing but not getting. Thanks in advance!

Also, I'll be completely honest, I've fixed the car a couple times with simple things like alternator failure, and dinked around with my other car when it had issues (89 Mercury Tracer) and it's still running, but I'm definitely no in-depth mechanic. In fact, using the FSM, I'm still unsure exactly WHERE the starter is in the engine bay. Nothing I see where it indicates seems to match the picture. Anyway, that's just my foreword and I'm grateful for any help I can get.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

Charge up the battery,Fully.
Clean the battery cables at the battery and clean and tighten all connections having to due with the cables.
And male sure that your car is either in Park or try to start it in Neutral.
See if that helps.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Did all of those, sadly nothing. I also checked the plugs at the ECU because I had the carpet out of the way, nothing looking burnt out or melted, though I have no idea if that would even have anything to do with it.

There's also a very faint, odd sound like boiling water when I turn the key to 'on'.

When I replaced the alternator it was giving off ~15 volts so I wouldn't be overly surprised if something was affected though it's definitely odd that it was working fine when I parked it and now nothing.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The ECU is not involved in the starter turning over or not. The starter solenoid has a Black/White wire to it. Pull this wire off and place voltage to the fastening clip that the wire was connected to and the starter should turn over and do this w/the car not in gear. You can take a screwdriver and use it to bridge the voltage from the thick starter wire (solid Black and not the Black/Yellow wire as this is the ground which is not the wire you use so it's the solid Black wire bolted to the starter and this voltage goes to the solenoid) that runs to it from the battery positive terminal to the solenoid clip or you could run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the solenoid. Either way will tell you of the condition of the starter.

Check to see if the wipers or turn signals work w/key to on as this will tell you if the Main fuse in the Engine fuse box is good which is necessary for the starter to function properly.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so it's not the starter! This pleases me (especially that I managed to find it, I didn't really get from the FSM picture that it's all the way on the bottom and you have to go from underneath. Now I know). However, this is kind of odd. There is actually a pure white wire that is plugged into my starter. What I'm guessing is the problem is I found a pure black wire with a female tab connector on the end of it hanging down there, not plugged into anything.

So I assume I have to figure out where in the world that's supposed to plug into. I'm going to go out and try and do that, but I figured I'd post this here to keep you updated and maybe you could give me suggestions. I see you said there's a solid black wire that's supposed to be bolted to the starter, but this one definitely has a connector on it.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, the wipers and turn signals work fine.

satch

iTrader: (1)

There's three wires connected to the starter. Two of them are a very thick gauge wire that run to the battery as one is the ground (yellow markings on Black) and the other is the positive voltage wire which is solid Black and these are the factory colors so maybe yours was redone at some time. The final wire is part of the starting circuit and runs to the starter solenoid which has a spade for the wire to slide on to. W/key to start this wire would have voltage to it otherwise it has none. So if you have no wire connected to it then check the dangling wire for voltage w/key to start only.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

The black wire is definitely something someone added in at some point I think, not really sure of the purpose, maybe something audio related. It's spliced onto a cable with one of those blue wire joiner clamps (I don't know the technical term, haha). It has 0 volts at key off, and 14 at key to on or start.

The white wire on the other hand is sort of odd. It has 0 volts at key off, and 2 at on or start. So I'm guessing the problem is wherever this wire goes (presumably somewhere under the dash, I can't find it as it goes into one of the large taped bundles of wires.

And yes the starter still has the large black negative and large black positive cables.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The wire that should run to the starter solenoid also splits off and runs to the ECU. The wire which goes to the solenoid should lead up to a Blue plug located near the trailing coil. Follow this wire from the solenoid up to this Blue plug and verify that you have done just that.

Since you have an auto your car has a switch located on the passenger side of the transmission housing and it prevents the car from being started in gear but only started in either park or neutral.

satch

iTrader: (1)

On an auto, the Black/Green wire at the Blue plug has voltage w/key to start as it comes directly from the ignition switch. This voltage then passes onto the B/W wire in the same plug. This B/W wire "should" then run to the Inhibitor Switch bolted to the side of the transmission. When the B/W wire gets to this switch the voltage on it w/key to start gets passed onto a Black/Red wire which then should run to the starter solenoid. It would appear that your Inhibitor Switch might be the cause of your problem. Once you locate the Blue plug near the trailing coil you could check for voltage w/key to start on the two thicker gauge wires (B/G and B/W). Once this is verified then locate the switch at the transmission and verify that w/key to start the B/W wire has voltage. Once done then proceed to the B/R wire in the same switch and verify as well that the B/R wire has voltage. Chances are it does not and this would be the cause of your problem.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh. No wonder I couldn't trace the wire under the hood. It definitely looked like the wire to the starter solenoid joined a bundle of wires and then ran backwards towards the transmission, but it seemed odd and left me scratching my head.

I'll go do what you said and see what happens.

Also, I'm curious. Do a lot of people remove the wrapping on the wires and replace them with intermittent cable ties along the lines? Because currently on this car (Which to my knowledge, is all stock... Except for that odd wire) it's impossible to trace an individual wire as everything ends up running into the large bundles that are taped up.

satch

iTrader: (1)

If it's a must to unwrap then unwrap, but after you find what you're looking for then it would be best to rewrap as previously done to keep things secure and in place.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so there's a white/black wire down there, but I'm not sure it's the correct one. It looks thinner gauge than the wire that comes out from the blue plug, and it goes into a small connector (passive, it's just a clip) that has a red/black wire coming out of it, and I'm not 100% certain but judging by the FSM it goes into what it calls the kickdown solenoid?

The FSM doesn't seem to actually point out the inhibitor switch (though it does mention it in the diagnostics) or I'm just missing it.

Also if that IS the correct black and white wire (I'm not seeing others) then something weird is going on because it doesn't have any voltage with key to start. And that's before it even gets to the transmission. But I'm guessing it's not the correct one. Any pointers on where exactly the inhibitor solenoid is (do they use a different name in the diagram?) so that I can trace back?

satch

iTrader: (1)

The Kickdown Switch should have a Black/Yellow wire and a Yellow wire running to it but I'm using an 88 fsm wiring diagram so the colors might be different from the 86 version.

Have you tested for voltage on the B/W wire at the Blue plug? You can use your multimeter set to ohms and "ring out" the B/W wire by placing one end of the meter lead to one end of the B/W wire at the Blue plug and the other end of the meter to the B/W wire at the switch at the transmission which also houses the B/R wire. If the meter rings out then you verified that the wire coming out of the Blue plug is the same wire down by the transmission. You do this test w/no key in the ignition. The Inhibitor Switch should be on the passenger side of the housing and would have a plug w/four wires with the other two wires being Black/Yellow and Red/Green.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the colours appear to be different on the 86.

I tested for voltage at the B/W wire at the blue plug, it was working fine. Though, I did notice something that seemed a little odd. I'll test it again, but it seemed like when I tested the Black/Green wire, with key turned to start it had voltage, but only at start. I put the blue plug with the jumper back on and tested the B/W wire, and it had voltage when the key was at 'on'. Which doesn't really seem possible, but again, I may have done something wrong.

In the mean time I'll try ringing out the wire, and also look for the inhibitor switch.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The B/W wire at the Blue plug is jumpered to to the B/G wire so the voltage w/key to start must pass from B/G to B/W thus B/W should not have voltage on it outside of the voltage it receives from B/G unless it was being back fed from another source which should not be happening.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

I'll make sure to double check it. Also, turns out I'm going to have to remove the cats and heat plates to get to the inhibitor switch so it's going to take a bit.

Have a few other things to do in between so not sure how long it will be before I can post back results.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so I ended up busier in life than I thought I would. Life always gets in the way of the RX7.

Anyway, kind of confused now. I'm going to go back under and attempt to trace the initial wire that has voltage down to the transmission tomorrow, as well as retest the voltage at the B/W wire. Where I am right now is that I think I found the inhibitor, as it has the wire bundle going to the starter coming out of it, but I couldn't see or feel any wires actually going in (hence why I'm going to attempt to retrace the other wires).

This is what I'm looking at with the wiring to the starter (and other things) coming out:



Also, there's this that goes into the transmission and is coming (it's behind the heatplates, so can't see well) from the rear of the car. It's rather loose, is that a problem?



Also, lastly, I'm already planning on changing the transmission to manual after I get it fixed. I was just hoping to get it running to drive it around a bit and see if anything else isn't working properly, as well as let it run after sitting a bit. Would it be possible to bridge the gap the inhibitor creates by running a wire from the B/W wire at the jumper to the starter? Or would this not be advised?

satch

iTrader: (1)

To bypass the Inhibitor Switch you jumper the B/W wire to the Black/Red wire in the same plug. I guess I am misunderstanding something, but the first pic does not show the starter.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

What I was trying to show is the cloth tube at the top there, which is housing the wires running from the transmission to the starter (and possibly other things as well ( ? ) which makes me wonder whether merely bypassing the transmission for the starter will work, guess I will find out later today), so I'm guessing that what it's running into there is the Inhibitor Switch.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Weeelll... This is interesting. So two pieces of news.

First, I retested that wire, and yep, it appears to be getting power from somewhere else I guess? When I test the B/G wire at the blue connector with the blue connector OFF, it works properly. 0 volts at off/on, 12+ volts at Start.

But, as soon as I put the blue connector ON, it changes to 0 volts at off, 12+ volts at on and start. The B/W wire at the other side of the blue jumper connector reads the same (of course), so... Well, I don't really know what to think.

Then, on the other hand, I tried bridging the gap to the starter, and now I think the starter really is dead for some reason. I again bridged from the post at the starter to the positive post on the battery, and while it clicks, it can barely turn over. And the battery is fully charged and a good battery.

However, did a quick search, and it looks like since I have an automatic transmission and I have a TII parts car, I can possibly swap the starter from the TII over to the automatic for testing?

satch

iTrader: (1)

Could you possibly try testing the B/W wire in the Blue plug w/key to on w/the car in gear and see what you get?

And I agree that an auto starter and a turbo starter are supposed to be the same if I remember correctly.

satch

iTrader: (1)

Pin 3D from the ECU is connected to the B/W wire from looking at the wiring diagram. Pin 3D places 12 volts on the B/W w/the car in gear and less than 1.5 volts w/the car in park or neutral. The Inhibitor Switch has two positions, open and closed. If the switch was stuck in the open position then the ECU would place voltage on the B/W wire. The open position should occur w/the car in gear and not in park/neutral. This suggests your Inhibitor Switch is stuck in the open position which helps to explain why you have voltage w/key to on at the B/W wire in the Blue plug plus explains why you cannot start the car because w/the switch in the open position the switch refuses to pass voltage on to the wire that ends up at the starter solenoid.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

Just tested it, in gear is giving the same voltage at the B/W wire as in park or neutral.

satch

iTrader: (1)

It shouldn't so this should tell us the switch is stuck in the open position which would help to explain why the car won't start in addition to why the B/W wire has voltage w/key to on regardless of whether the car is in gear or not.

Anakhoresis

iTrader: (1)

So would it be possible to remove the blue jumper connector and bridge a wire from the B/G wire to the starter? Or does the ECU require that information? I'm guessing it probably does.

Not sure what my options are here, or does the inhibitor switch have a fix that isn't difficult or expensive?